David McKittrick; These protests are NOT over the flag.

SoulandForm · 16-01-2013 10:16PM

gallag wrote: »

Soulandform, I am starting to think you dont like the loyalists????

Its not a matter mate of not liking them, I absolutely hate them.

That doesnt go for many people in or who vote for the DUP necessarily . The DUP is a lot more active than the UUP and on economic issues is a lot more left wing. There are a lot of good reasons that people who are Protestant or from a Protestant background would vote for the DUP over the UUP.

gallag · 16-01-2013 10:26PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

Its not a matter mate of not liking them, I absolutely hate them.

I thought that, I do have a gift for picking these things up though :-)

junder · 16-01-2013 10:39PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

Its not a matter mate of not liking them, I absolutely hate them.

That doesnt go for many people in or who vote for the DUP necessarily . The DUP is a lot more active than the UUP and on economic issues is a lot more left wing. There are a lot of reasons that people who are Protestant or from a Protestant background would vote for the DUP over the UUP.

The only person I see expressing and facist sentiments is yourself, so what would you do to this community you dispise so much, if you had the chance

SoulandForm · 16-01-2013 10:46PM

junder wrote: »

The only person I see expressing and facist sentiments is yourself, so what would you do to this community you dispise so much, if you had the chance

Did you hear Naomi Long speak about "gate keepers" who claim to speak for Working class Unionist communities?

Well I would remove the gatekeepers and the godfathers from their positions of power.

These communities have some genuine and some over the top fears of the other side, as the other side has of them. I would try to deal constructively with that.

An attack on Loyalism does not equal an attack on the unionist/Protestant working class. You only need to look at the rejection of PUP at the ballot box to see that.

junder · 16-01-2013 10:56PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

Did you hear Naomi Long speak about "gate keepers" who claim to speak for Working class Unionist communities?

Well I would remove the gatekeepers and the godfathers from their positions of power.

These communities have some genuine and some over the top fears of the other side, as the other side has of them. I would try to deal constructively with that.

An attack on Loyalism does not equal an attack on the unionist/Protestant working class. You only need to look at the rejection of PUP at the ballot box to see that.

Alot of working class Protestants class themselves as loyalist

SoulandForm · 16-01-2013 10:59PM

junder wrote: »

Alot of working class Protestants class themselves as loyalist

At the end of the day more working class Protestants and those from a Protestant background vote for the Alliance than they do for the PUP.

junder · 16-01-2013 11:04PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

At the end of the day more working class Protestants and those from a Protestant background vote for the Alliance than they do for the PUP.

Evidence?

SoulandForm · 16-01-2013 11:07PM

junder wrote: »

The only person I see expressing and facist sentiments is yourself, so what would you do to this community you dispise so much, if you had the chance

What would you do to the Republican community if you had a chance? Do you believe in repartition?

I strongly disagree with gallag- but I do understand and respect where he is coming from. With you I neither understand fully, I dont think you do yourself, or respect.

SoulandForm · 16-01-2013 11:08PM

junder wrote: »

Evidence?

Oh catch yourself- you look at the votes cast where and who gets elected and who doesnt. You know well its the truth.

junder · 16-01-2013 11:15PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

Oh catch yourself- you look at the votes cast where and who gets elected and who doesnt. You know well its the truth.

No alliance party mla's elected where I live, and Naomi only got east Belfast because iris couldn't keep her knickers on. Alliance party voters normally hail from cultra and would be middle class soft unionists

SoulandForm · 16-01-2013 11:17PM

junder wrote: »

No alliance party mla's elected where I live, and Naomi only got east Belfast because iris couldn't keep her knickers on. Alliance party voters normally hail from cultra and would be middle class soft unionists

Im sure they get more votes than the PUP get though.

Naomi got elected because of her hard work and her genuine love of the people.

As much as I strongly disagree with her about a lot she is good person.

junder · 16-01-2013 11:29PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

Im sure they get more votes than the PUP get though.

Naomi got elected because of her hard work and her genuine love of the people.

As much as I strongly disagree with her about a lot she is good person.

She got elected as a protest against Robinson, she won't get elected again

SoulandForm · 16-01-2013 11:34PM

junder wrote: »

She got elected as a protest against Robinson, she won't get elected again

As an MP.

And lets see what happens shall we?

Thomas_I · 17-01-2013 08:08AM

junder wrote: »

No alliance party mla's elected where I live, and Naomi only got east Belfast because iris couldn't keep her knickers on. Alliance party voters normally hail from cultra and would be middle class soft unionists

I guess that the place where you live might be a small village with a couple of roads, as to say you´re living in a remote area.

Yes, some "middle class soft unionists" is what NI needs to get things improved and to bring the country towards a better future. At least such people are more inclined to compromises than the "die-hard" unionists you worship so much. Add some "middle class soft republicans" to them and many problems could be solved and with no fuss about the "Flag".

Maybe the Alliance party is the better choice for a brighter future, but I also think that Martin McGuinness is a quite moderate man. I believe that he is capable to work with different people from different political backgrounds for a better NI on the basics of democracy. That comment refers to him as a person, not to SF in general.

Happyman42 · 17-01-2013 10:19AM

I think anyone who saw the Nolan Show last night and seen and heard the leaders of this protest knows just what is happening here.
The need for leadership has never been greater because frankly, the level of intelligence amongst those feeling 'victimised' is really not that high.
.
I have never seen anything quite so revealing as that show. The victim stuff they where coming out with just didn't make any sense, they couldn't see that their societal problems (lack of investment, educational oppurtunities etc) are experienced the world over AND by their peers in the nationalist community. Really sad. The anger and beligerence on display was also really sad, some of the audience almost looked like parodies. The NEVER, NEVER's and NO SURRENDERS at the end.:rolleyes:
I certainly appreciate more the work the moderates have done in the face of this type of bile and unfiltered sense of victimhood.

Crooked Jack · 17-01-2013 10:37AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I think anyone who saw the Nolan Show last night and seen and heard the leaders of this protest knows just what is happening here.
The need for leadership has never been greater because frankly, the level of intelligence amongst those feeling 'victimised' is really not that high.
.
I have never seen anything quite so revealing as that show. The victim stuff they where coming out with just didn't make any sense, they couldn't see that their societal problems (lack of investment, educational oppurtunities etc) are experienced the world over AND by their peers in the nationalist community. Really sad. The anger and beligerence on display was also really sad, some of the audience almost looked like parodies. The NEVER, NEVER's and NO SURRENDERS at the end.:rolleyes:
I certainly appreciate more the work the moderates have done in the face of this type of bile and unfiltered sense of victimhood.

I was just about to ask if anyone saw that shambles on Nolan last night. Fuckin hell I've never seen a balls up like it. They must have recruited the audience from the local UVF.
I'd love to hear the opinions of an impartial observer on it because from what I could see Gerry kelly, David Ford, Conall McDavitt, the political commentator and yer man from Slugger O'Toole came across as the only people in the building with two brain cells to rub together.
One goon in the audience told flat out lies about Ray McCreesh Park in Newry (why that was even brought up in the first place I have no idea) and was let away with it by Nolan.

Thomas_I · 17-01-2013 10:39AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

... The need for leadership has never been greater because frankly, the level of intelligence amongst those feeling 'victimised' is really not that high.

The need for leadership isn´t only the lack of intelligence it´s also the lack of individuality, imo.

Happyman42 wrote: »

I have never seen anything quite so revealing as that show. The victim stuff they where coming out with just didn't make any sense, they couldn't see that their societal problems (lack of investment, educational oppurtunities etc) are experienced the world over AND by their peers in the nationalist community. Really sad. The anger and beligerence on display was also really sad, some of the audience almost looked like parodies. The NEVER, NEVER's and NO SURRENDERS at the end.:rolleyes:

With these riots in the past weeks and the negative effect it has on the economy of NI, let alone to speak about the international preputation, they´ve only to blame themselves for that.

Happyman42 wrote: »

I certainly appreciate more the work the moderates have done in the face of this type of bile and unfiltered sense of victimhood.

Hear Hear! I´m with you on that opinion.

Happyman42 · 17-01-2013 10:46AM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I was just about to ask if anyone saw that shambles on Nolan last night. Fuckin hell I've never seen a balls up like it. They must have recruited the audience from the local UVF.
I'd love to hear the opinions of an impartial observer on it because from what I could see Gerry kelly, David Ford, Conall McDavitt, the political commentator and yer man from Slugger O'Toole came across as the only people in the building with two brain cells to rub together.
One goon in the audience told flat out lies about Ray McCreesh Park in Newry (why that was even brought up in the first place I have no idea) and was let away with it by Nolan.

Nolan and his producers should really face a very stern tribunal if the BBC wishes to be seen as impartial. Jeffery Donaldson was allowed again and again to get away with his own (and Ulster Unionism's) peculiar brand of sleevenism and dangerous political point scoring. I found it particularily interesting the fact that the audience responded mutely to him, it was as if he was being allowed to say the 'right things'. I thought he was very aware of the tightrope he was walking. He knows that they have the potential to hate him more than they hate Gerry Kelly. Never seen him so nervous.
This community is indeed leaderless and rudderless.

junder · 17-01-2013 11:02AM

Thomas_I wrote: »

I guess that the place where you live might be a small village with a couple of roads, as to say you´re living in a remote area.

Yes, some "middle class soft unionists" is what NI needs to get things improved and to bring the country towards a better future. At least such people are more inclined to compromises than the "die-hard" unionists you worship so much. Add some "middle class soft republicans" to them and many problems could be solved and with no fuss about the "Flag".

Maybe the Alliance party is the better choice for a brighter future, but I also think that Martin McGuinness is a quite moderate man. I believe that he is capable to work with different people from different political backgrounds for a better NI on the basics of democracy. That comment refers to him as a person, not to SF in general.

Wrong, wrong and wrong, you should be careful about making assumptions. Ironic that you castigate somebody for a past on the bnp and yet hold up marring mcgunniess as a moderate, did he moderately order the deaths of people as Londonderry brigade oc? So explain to me Sinn Fein Vision of shared space, they talk about equality and creating shared environments but ignore an equality, diversity survay and vote to have the union flag removed, they talk about equality and creating shared environments but ignore an equality, diversity survay and vote to have a children's play park named after a ira terroist, what's the common denominator there? Moreover I'm still waiting to an answer to Oscar Bravos question ( you know the loyalist loving, republican hatinv west Brit or in other words an Irishman who dares question the ideals his country was founded on and what the Irish republican movement stands for) . If there is a unionist majorty that democratically votes to have the union flag flown 365 days s year, are you going to accept the democratic decision that you insist that unionist must accept now?

Happyman42 · 17-01-2013 11:19AM

junder wrote: »

. If there is a unionist majorty that democratically votes to have the union flag flown 365 days s year, are you going to accept the democratic decision that you insist that unionist must accept now?

:D
Where have you been for the last 40 odd years???

Crooked Jack · 17-01-2013 12:01PM

junder wrote: »

Wrong, wrong and wrong, you should be careful about making assumptions. Ironic that you castigate somebody for a past on the bnp and yet hold up marring mcgunniess as a moderate, did he moderately order the deaths of people as Londonderry brigade oc?

I dunno, he certainly wasnt charged for it if he did but sure hey, its grand to just go throwing around accusations on the internet isnt it? I'd also doubt if anybody ordered the "Londonderry" brigade of the IRA to do anything, I've certainly never heard of them.

junder wrote: »

So explain to me Sinn Fein Vision of shared space, they talk about equality and creating shared environments but ignore an equality, diversity survay and vote to have the union flag removed,

The Sinn Fein vision of a shared space for everyone is quite simple. Equalise or neutralise, both flags or no flags. I am constantly amazed that there are people who think this incredibly modest and moderate request is something to get riled up over. As for this equality and diversity survey you speak of, several of these were done over the years with fuck all of them getting any sort of meaningful response. Three people turned up to the last public meeting on the flag before all this shit kicked off. Nationalists are in the majority in Belfast City Council, they could have forced through the total removal of the flag but decided to compromise. Unionism could learn from Sinn Fein.

junder wrote: »

they talk about equality and creating shared environments but ignore an equality, diversity survay and vote to have a children's play park named after a ira terroist, what's the common denominator there?

BULL! Somebody on Nolan also spat out this lie. Firstly, that park issue is 11 years old, unionists just dragged it up as a convenient distraction. For the past 11 years not one unionist has given a flying fuck what anything in Newry is called, this sudden "offence" taken to a name a decade old is pretty transparent.
As or the equality survey you speak of (dunno where youre getting these from) a consultation was carried out with the local community 11 years ago, the vast majority of whom wanted the park named after Ray McCreesh, a local hero.
There was indeed and equality investigation carried out on it and the Equality Committee actually backed the naming of the park, which is why the SDLP and independents in Newry and Mourne council voted for it as well, it wasnt just SF. THose are the facts although no doubt that won't stop unionists from claiming otherwise.

junder wrote: »

Moreover I'm still waiting to an answer to Oscar Bravos question ( you know the loyalist loving, republican hatinv west Brit or in other words an Irishman who dares question the ideals his country was founded on and what the Irish republican movement stands for) .

Havent seen it but I'll have a look for it and get back to you

junder wrote: »

If there is a unionist majorty that democratically votes to have the union flag flown 365 days s year, are you going to accept the democratic decision that you insist that unionist must accept now?

As someone else pointed out, where have you been for the past 90 years

Happyman42 · 17-01-2013 12:23PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I dunno, he certainly wasnt charged for it if he did but sure hey, its grand to just go throwing around accusations on the internet isnt it? I'd also doubt if anybody ordered the "Londonderry" brigade of the IRA to do anything, I've certainly never heard of them.

The Sinn Fein vision of a shared space for everyone is quite simple. Equalise or neutralise, both flags or no flags. I am constantly amazed that there are people who think this incredibly modest and moderate request is something to get riled up over. As for this equality and diversity survey you speak of, several of these were done over the years with fuck all of them getting any sort of meaningful response. Three people turned up to the last public meeting on the flag before all this shit kicked off. Nationalists are in the majority in Belfast City Council, they could have forced through the total removal of the flag but decided to compromise. Unionism could learn from Sinn Fein.

BULL! Somebody on Nolan also spat out this lie. Firstly, that park issue is 11 years old, unionists just dragged it up as a convenient distraction. For the past 11 years not one unionist has given a flying fuck what anything in Newry is called, this sudden "offence" taken to a name a decade old is pretty transparent.
As or the equality survey you speak of (dunno where youre getting these from) a consultation was carried out with the local community 11 years ago, the vast majority of whom wanted the park named after Ray McCreesh, a local hero.
There was indeed and equality investigation carried out on it and the Equality Committee actually backed the naming of the park, which is why the SDLP and independents in Newry and Mourne council voted for it as well, it wasnt just SF. THose are the facts although no doubt that won't stop unionists from claiming otherwise.

Havent seen it but I'll have a look for it and get back to you

As someone else pointed out, where have you been for the past 90 years

Agree with a lot of this.
It would be tremendously helpful and progressive if Unionism/Loyalism and southern partitionists accepted that republicans do not see IRA members as 'terrorists', but rather as members of their communities who made a stand, just as Unionism/Loyalism supplied members of their communities to the British Army and various paramilitary associations. One sides hero is the other sides oppressor. There is no gain, and no point. Whataboutery solves nothing.

Thomas_I · 17-01-2013 12:24PM

junder wrote: »

Wrong, wrong and wrong, you should be careful about making assumptions.

Sorry about misinterpreting the (to me unknown) locality where you live. I´ve had no intention to offend you in any way. The "hotspot" in this flag issue has been and still is Belfast. I think that we could agree on that, at least.

junder wrote: »

Ironic that you castigate somebody for a past on the bnp and yet hold up marring mcgunniess as a moderate, did he moderately order the deaths of people as Londonderry brigade oc?

What´s ironic in that? That Ex-BNP man is according to that article a convicted "criminal". That´s some kind of a strange assessment by yourself to put him and McGuinness on the same level. As long as there isn´t enough proof for any assumed "crimes" Mr McGuinness "might had comitted" and as long as he´s not convicted for such deeds, as long he remains innocent. What "proof" do you might have to come up with? If you would, you´d know much more than any other and I seriously doubt that very much.

The difference between that Ex-BNP man and McGuinness is simply, that the Ex-BNP man is still a Fascist and I don´t know under which circumstances he left the BNP (has he been expelled from it or did he leave for other reasons?). Mr McGuinness is imo a real statesman (which is obviously and proved) and he appeares that he has learned a lot in his lifetime and changed some attitudes in compare to the past. I´d just like to remember you that his controversial debated past within the IRA is "the past" which means that these were different times. This persisting stirring up the past doesn´t make any progress and I won´t engage into a tis-for-tat debate and pick some cruelties the Unionists / Loyalists have comitted from the variety of their "deeds in order to defend the Union". I hope that when Ian Paisely once meets his maker he´ll have a long lasting "chat" with him to explain his reasons for stirring up hatred and face his responsibility for the "blood he has on his hands".

junder wrote: »

So explain to me Sinn Fein Vision of shared space, they talk about equality and creating shared environments but ignore an equality, diversity survay and vote to have the union flag removed, they talk about equality and creating shared environments but ignore an equality, diversity survay and vote to have a children's play park named after a ira terroist, what's the common denominator there?

I´m not a Shinner and I was only giving credit to Mr McGuinness as a person and statesman. In general I´d say that local SF representatives have their own responsibility for what they´re doing. A survey doesn´t equals a referendum where all the people can go to vote. I don´t rely on surveys for you can manipulate them as you like, it doesn´t tells you the truth anyway.

junder wrote: »

Moreover I'm still waiting to an answer to Oscar Bravos question ( you know the loyalist loving, republican hatinv west Brit or in other words an Irishman who dares question the ideals his country was founded on and what the Irish republican movement stands for).

That is not of my concern. Every person has his right to love or even hate his own country. The point in that is just to ask why does he hate it. I can´t answer that, it´s his business.

junder wrote: »

If there is a unionist majorty that democratically votes to have the union flag flown 365 days s year, are you going to accept the democratic decision that you insist that unionist must accept now?

Of course I would, but there isn´t. If there is a majority of the people in NI to vote for Mr McGuinness to become PM of NI would you accept that?

What a day would that be! In my imagination it would be like someone´s opens the door towards the unification of Ireland. But that´s just an "imagination" which has nothing to do with the present reality. Seriously I consider him to be the right man, but the right time for Irelands unification hasn´t come yet.

junder · 17-01-2013 12:30PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I dunno, he certainly wasnt charged for it if he did but sure hey, its grand to just go throwing around accusations on the internet isnt it? I'd also doubt if anybody ordered the "Londonderry" brigade of the IRA to do anything, I've certainly never heard of them.

The Sinn Fein vision of a shared space for everyone is quite simple. Equalise or neutralise, both flags or no flags. I am constantly amazed that there are people who think this incredibly modest and moderate request is something to get riled up over. As for this equality and diversity survey you speak of, several of these were done over the years with fuck all of them getting any sort of meaningful response. Three people turned up to the last public meeting on the flag before all this shit kicked off. Nationalists are in the majority in Belfast City Council, they could have forced through the total removal of the flag but decided to compromise. Unionism could learn from Sinn Fein.

BULL! Somebody on Nolan also spat out this lie. Firstly, that park issue is 11 years old, unionists just dragged it up as a convenient distraction. For the past 11 years not one unionist has given a flying fuck what anything in Newry is called, this sudden "offence" taken to a name a decade old is pretty transparent.
As or the equality survey you speak of (dunno where youre getting these from) a consultation was carried out with the local community 11 years ago, the vast majority of whom wanted the park named after Ray McCreesh, a local hero.
There was indeed and equality investigation carried out on it and the Equality Committee actually backed the naming of the park, which is why the SDLP and independents in Newry and Mourne council voted for it as well, it wasnt just SF. THose are the facts although no doubt that won't stop unionists from claiming otherwise.

Havent seen it but I'll have a look for it and get back to you

As someone else pointed out, where have you been for the past 90 years

The flag was up on city hall for 100 years and has only become an issue now. And no nationalists could not have forced through a vote. But hey what about answering Oscar bravos question

Thomas_I · 17-01-2013 12:38PM

junder wrote: »

The flag was up on city hall for 100 years and has only become an issue now. And no nationalists could not have forced through a vote. But hey what about answering Oscar bravos question

The whole of Ireland was occupied by the English / British for 700 years and was an issue not only in 1916, 1919 and 1921 and no Engish / British Government had the intention to let Ireland go into its own freedom, even by the declared will by the Irish people through a vote on the Dáil of 1919. What about considering that?

Crooked Jack · 17-01-2013 12:45PM

junder wrote: »

The flag was up on city hall for 100 years and has only become an issue now. And no nationalists could not have forced through a vote. But hey what about answering Oscar bravos question

The fact you think it's only an issue now shows the depths of your ignorance on this subject. It has always been an issue for nationalists, it's only an issue for unionists now because they were rile up by the DUP/UUP (what good little puppets they are) and because nationalists are now in the majority and the city (and six counties in general) is changing.

I looked back over a few pages and cant see anything from OscarBravo. Can you just tell me what the question is?

Happyman42 · 17-01-2013 12:47PM

junder wrote: »

And no nationalists could not have forced through a vote.

Did you not hear what David Forde and Naomi Long have been saying? They proposed the compromise to head off SF and the SDLP's proposal. Therefore a vote was forced and a compromise achieved.

GRMA · 17-01-2013 12:52PM

Is the Nolan show available to view online for us in the 26?

Oh and...

Crown body says flying Union flag 365 days a year is not British tradition

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/crown-body-says-flying-union-flag-365-days-a-year-is-not-british-tradition-16252931.html#ixzz2IEV1sYeF

GRMA · 17-01-2013 12:53PM

Loyalists are being exploited like useful idiots yet again.

Big orange drum is being beat to get Robinson or some other DUP head back as an MP instead of Long.

Happyman42 · 17-01-2013 01:02PM

GRMA wrote: »

Loyalists are being exploited like useful idiots yet again.

Big orange drum is being beat to get Robinson or some other DUP head back as an MP instead of Long.

Absolutely, that is what is going on. The vitriol thrown at David Forde last night was astonishing. Pure unadultered, unreasonable and unthought out hate. Donalson was owned by the guy from Slugger O'Toole's blog but was allowed off the hook by a partisan Nolan imo.
Instead of SF being answerable for this shambles, the media need to focus on the double dealing of the main Unionist parties here to secure their economic and political well-being at the expense of ordinary working class Unionists.

p.s. you could set up a proxy and watch on the iPlayer maybe?

David McKittrick; These protests are NOT over the flag.

Comments