Was Stalin worse than Hitler?

SafeSurfer · 10-01-2013 02:40PM

Madam_X wrote: »

Genocide by extreme communists is not ignored or excused.

Marx/Lenin were not genocidal dictators, so you're not comparing like with like. I know their views inspired genocidal dictators but that was not their intention, and many of the points they made about inequality were valid. If Quinn imitated the Stalin look or voiced an admiration for Chairman Mao, then there would be uproar.

I always find this debate strange - they were as bad as each other, if sometimes in different ways. I do find the question always brings a "The left ignore communist mass murder" commentary out of the woodwork, as above - I suspect to have a go at... oh noez... people with socialist (fairness and equality) ideals. That is not the same as admiring a brutal communist regime like North Korea/China under Mao/the Soviet Union under Stalin.

In my opinion Lenin was genocidal. His New Economic Policy and agricultural reforms led to the deliberate starvation of inhabitants of uncooperative villages. This was not a merely a consequence of the reforms but a stated policy. Lenin was ruthless in his pursuit of power and led the Bolsheviks to seize control of a revolution that was much more broad based and succeeded through the red terror to crush all opposition, thus creating a one party state.

keith16 · 10-01-2013 02:46PM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Stalin was a bigger monster in my opinion. Nobody was safe in his sphere. In fact the people who were closest to him were often the ones who suffered most. He murdered countless generals out of sheer paranoia and his own wife even committed suicide.

Absolutely, even after he permitted his generals to fight the German front on their terms, many of them should have been returning heroes. Instead they were demoted / imprisoned / killed.

Many of them lamented that they had saved Russia, and would have done so at any cost. Incredible that they sacrificed themselves for their country, even though they knew the sort of country they would return to.

Stalin had an insatiable lust for power and even though the red army "liberated" Poland from Nazi occupation, Stalin ordered the massacre of the Polish military elite in Katyn with a view to simply taking Poland.

What's even "worser" is that Russia up until relatively recently denied that the Katyn massacre was carried out on Stalins orders.

Another poster mentioned that Hitler discriminated, I would argue that Stalin was much more discriminate (or at least strategically so).

In summation I think Stalin was much worse given his personal blood lust for power at all costs.

Hande hoche! · 10-01-2013 02:50PM

keith16 wrote: »

Absolutely, even after he permitted his generals to fight the German front on their terms, many of them should have been returning heroes. Instead they were demoted / imprisoned / killed.

Many of them lamented that they had saved Russia, and would have done so at any cost. Incredible that they sacrificed themselves for their country, even though they knew the sort of country they would return to.

Stalin had an insatiable lust for power and even though the red army "liberated" Poland from Nazi occupation, Stalin ordered the massacre of the Polish military elite in Katyn with a view to simply taking Poland.

What's even "worser" is that Russia up until relatively recently denied that the Katyn massacre was carried out on Stalins orders.

Another poster mentioned that Hitler discriminated, I would argue that Stalin was much more discriminate (or at least strategically so).

In summation I think Stalin was much worse given his personal blood lust for power at all costs.

The Katyn massacre was prior to operation Barbarossa. Other than that would pretty much agree with everything you said.

Capt'n Midnight · 10-01-2013 03:34PM

Stalin enrolled in a seminary when he was sixteen...

Father Ted Crilly: His note from the bishop said they never really found a suitable place for him... he's not a very nice man, is he?
Father Dougal McGuire: God, Ted. I've never met anyone like him anywhere... who would he be like - Hitler or one of those mad fellas.
Father Ted Crilly: Oh, worse than Hitler. You wouldn't find Hitler playing jungle music at 3 o'clock in the morning.

CruelCoin · 10-01-2013 03:39PM

In terms of Killcount? Yes, much worse.

Stalin racked up waaay more M-M-M-M-MONSTER KILL's that Hitler did.

Pherekydes · 10-01-2013 03:40PM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Stalin was a bigger monster in my opinion. Nobody was safe in his sphere. In fact the people who were closest to him were often the ones who suffered most. He murdered countless generals out of sheer paranoia and his own wife even committed suicide.

Hitler shot his own wife and his dog! The baxtard!

Capt'n Midnight · 10-01-2013 03:43PM

Under Hitlers rule some groups were singled out as scapegoats, if you did not live in the east or belong to those groups and kept your nose clean and your head down and weren't conscripted then you'd probably muddle through.

Under Stalin anyone could be next. - My highlights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_No._270

The second article demanded that encircled soldiers used every possibility to fight, and to demand that their commanders organize fighting; according to the order, anyone attempting to surrender instead of fighting must be killed and their family members deprived of any state welfare and assistance.
...
Commenting on that order, Stalin declared: "There are no Soviet prisoners of war, only traitors."[

During the war a prisoner exchange was suggested. Hitler's nephew (from his half-sister) for Stalin's son. Stalin is supposed to have said "war is war."

Capt'n Midnight · 10-01-2013 03:44PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

Hitler shot his own wife and his dog! The baxtard!

We should put up a statue to the man that finally killed him.

http://xkcd.com/1063/

Amirani · 10-01-2013 03:46PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

Hitler shot his own wife and his dog! The baxtard!

Him and his wife committed joint suicide. They married in the morning and then retired to their area of the bunker and killed themselves. Hitler took a cyanide pill and then shot himself in the head.

Latchy · 10-01-2013 03:49PM

Stalin ....

He viewed people ,civilian and soldiers alike as mere numbers ,if it take a million lives to achieve an objective then let it be ...two million ? ...so be it .

As he said in his own words '' the loss of one live is a tragedy ,the loss of millions is just statistics'' .

biko · 10-01-2013 03:54PM

I can't really say, both were murderers of so many people it's incomprehensible. Each did it for what they believed was best. It wasn't.

One thing for Stalin though, without him we'd all be speaking German now.
Two evils fighting it out on the eastern front saved our ass.

Ray Palmer · 10-01-2013 03:56PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think (with maybe one or two arguable exceptions) every Russian ruling setup since Peter the Great would have repelled the German (or any) foreign invasion.

The winter repelled the Germans not really the Russian forces. The Russians did in fact do more to defeat the Germans and were part of the allied forces.

mattjack · 10-01-2013 03:57PM

Sometimes its worth looking at some of the entourage that these two had.
For example , I give you Lavrentiy Beria , thought by some to have persuaded Stalin to order the Katyn massacres , indeed others thought Stalin was afraid of Beria because of his irrational behaviour.

Once, Stalin met a delegation of workers from the Urals. When the workers left, Stalin looked around for his pipe but did not see it. He called Beria and said, ‘Lavrentiy, my pipe disappeared after the visit of those workers.’
‘Yes, Yosif Vissarionovich, I'll immediately take proper measures.’
Ten minutes later, Stalin pulled out a drawer in his desk and saw his pipe. He struck a match, puffed out a ring of smoke, and dialed Beria's number.
‘Lavrentiy, my pipe's been found.’
‘What a pity," Beria said. "All of them have just confessed.’

It is rumoured that Beria personally strangled his predecessor Yezhov

Some of his hobbies included :

reportedly kidnapping young girls on Moscow streets, raping and sodomizing them and threatening their families to keep quiet. He was also known for being a good balalaika player and had a fast hand with a revolver. .... whatever the fuck balalaika is

wendell borton · 10-01-2013 05:28PM

mattjack wrote: »

Sometimes its worth looking at some of the entourage that these two had.
For example , I give you Lavrentiy Beria , thought by some to have persuaded Stalin to order the Katyn massacres , indeed others thought Stalin was afraid of Beria because of his irrational behaviour.

Once, Stalin met a delegation of workers from the Urals. When the workers left, Stalin looked around for his pipe but did not see it. He called Beria and said, ‘Lavrentiy, my pipe disappeared after the visit of those workers.’
‘Yes, Yosif Vissarionovich, I'll immediately take proper measures.’
Ten minutes later, Stalin pulled out a drawer in his desk and saw his pipe. He struck a match, puffed out a ring of smoke, and dialed Beria's number.
‘Lavrentiy, my pipe's been found.’
‘What a pity," Beria said. "All of them have just confessed.’

It is rumoured that Beria personally strangled his predecessor Yezhov

Some of his hobbies included :

reportedly kidnapping young girls on Moscow streets, raping and sodomizing them and threatening their families to keep quiet. He was also known for being a good balalaika player and had a fast hand with a revolver. .... whatever the fuck balalaika is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMmMz4rTFO8

SafeSurfer · 10-01-2013 05:29PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Under Hitlers rule some groups were singled out as scapegoats, if you did not live in the east or belong to those groups and kept your nose clean and your head down and weren't conscripted then you'd probably muddle through.

Under Stalin anyone could be next. - My highlights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_No._270

The second article demanded that encircled soldiers used every possibility to fight, and to demand that their commanders organize fighting; according to the order, anyone attempting to surrender instead of fighting must be killed and their family members deprived of any state welfare and assistance.

...
Commenting on that order, Stalin declared: "There are no Soviet prisoners of war, only traitors."[

During the war a prisoner exchange was suggested. Hitler's nephew (from his half-sister) for Stalin's son. Stalin is supposed to have said "war is war."

As the saying went - it took a brave man to be a coward in the Red Army.

intellectual dosser · 10-01-2013 05:34PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Stalin enrolled in a seminary when he was sixteen...

Father Ted Crilly: His note from the bishop said they never really found a suitable place for him... he's not a very nice man, is he?
Father Dougal McGuire: God, Ted. I've never met anyone like him anywhere... who would he be like - Hitler or one of those mad fellas.
Father Ted Crilly: Oh, worse than Hitler. You wouldn't find Hitler playing jungle music at 3 o'clock in the morning.

Got there before me!

Capt'n Midnight · 10-01-2013 06:42PM

If you are comparing Hitler to Stalin then you need to brush up on history.

For numbers Mao is way ahead.

For sheer bloodymindedness Pol Pot is hard to beat

First thing they did when they took over Phnom Penh was to blow up the mint and abolish currency. And things went downhill from there.

http://www.ppu.org.uk/genocide/g_cambodia1.html

So, at short notice and under threat of death, the inhabitants of towns and cities were forced to leave them. The ill, disabled, old and very young were driven out as well, regardless of their physical condition: no-one was spared the exodus. People who refused to leave were killed; so were those who didn't leave fast enough, and those who wouldn't obey orders.

All political and civil rights were abolished. Children were taken from their parents and placed in separate forced labour camps. Factories, schools and universities were shut down; so were hospitals. Lawyers, doctors, teachers, engineers, scientists and professional people in any field (including the army) were murdered, together with their extended families. Religion was banned, all leading Buddhist monks were killed and almost all temples destroyed. Music and radio sets were also banned. It was possible for people to be shot simply for knowing a foreign language, wearing glasses, laughing, or crying. One Khmer slogan ran 'To spare you is no profit, to destroy you is no loss.'

People who escaped murder became unpaid labourers, working on minimum rations and for impossibly long hours. They slept and ate in uncomfortable communes deliberately chosen to be as far as possible from their old homes. Personal relationships were discouraged; so were expressions of affection. People soon became weak from overwork and starvation, and after that fell ill, for which there was no treatment except death.

Also targeted were minority groups, victims of the Khmer Rouge's racism. These included ethnic Chinese, Vietnamese and Thai, and also Cambodians with Chinese, Vietnamese or Thai ancestry. Half the Cham Muslim population was murdered, and 8,000 Christians.

Part of Year Zero was to purge all the previous traditions and culture.

90 percent of the dancers had been executed or died of starvation or disease

3ndahalfof6 · 10-01-2013 06:48PM

The one who wore white socks.

old hippy · 10-01-2013 06:51PM

touts wrote: »

Without a doubt the extremists on both the Right and the Left were some of the most evil bastards that ever existed. However the media in Ireland tends to be Left wing so the genocide of socialists is somewhat ignored or excused. Hence we don't bat an eyelid at having a Minister (Quinn) with a beard and hair style to pay homage to his hero Lenin or a President who speaks fondly of the writings of Marx. Could you imagine the uproar if Enda Kenny donned a Hitler tash or if Leo Varadkar cited the organisational skills of Mussolini as inspiration for his reorg of CIE.

What left wing media are you on about, in particular? I hope you're not going to give us the reactionary old farts in the Irish Times as a shining example...

Madam_X · 10-01-2013 09:13PM

I dunno... I know what people mean when they say one was worse than the other, but... I'd just see that as: equally terrible but just in different ways. Saying one was worse than the other means one was "better" than the other. If Stalin was worse, well it would be downright weird to say Hitler was a "better" man than him...

starskey77 wrote: »

Neither of the boys were without fault

Lol.

but what has changed in europe

Plenty. Obviously.

Germany top dog we need a hard right wing goverment not this bunch
of nobodys useless heads below radar chancers. stalin was worse hitler was
right in sum of his outlooks not all though

Lol.

dj jarvis · 10-01-2013 09:57PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If you are comparing Hitler to Stalin then you need to brush up on history.

For numbers Mao is way ahead.

For sheer bloodymindedness Pol Pot is hard to beat

First thing they did when they took over Phnom Penh was to blow up the mint and abolish currency. And things went downhill from there.

http://www.ppu.org.uk/genocide/g_cambodia1.html

Part of Year Zero was to purge all the previous traditions and culture.

90 percent of the dancers had been executed or died of starvation or disease

+1

i was just about to post the very same
read a book by Jung Chang and jon halliday called MAO the unknown story
its toe curling the sheer madness and brutality

adolf and joe were FAS trainees in genocide compared to mao ,
also could never understand why no one has a problem with the restaurant named after him , but if you opened a hitler burger or uncle joes pizza place you would be chased out of town with pitchforks

my theory is this , Hitler and satlin killed mostly white Europeans western and eastern , but old mao killed Chinese , now the west just aint bothered by the Chinese getting slaughtered by their own

old hippy · 10-01-2013 10:44PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

+1

my theory is this , Hitler and satlin killed mostly white Europeans western and eastern , but old mao killed Chinese , now the west just aint bothered by the Chinese getting slaughtered by their own

Interesting theory. I have noticed over the years when there is a disaster or mass murder in the west, you will see acres of print and online comment on it but conversely, when something similar occurs in the far east; not so much.

Mao was a disaster for China and his legacy still remains.

wendell borton · 11-01-2013 12:59AM

Wasn't there a shop in india named hitler.

Difference Engine · 11-01-2013 01:04AM

old hippy wrote: »

Interesting theory. I have noticed over the years when there is a disaster or mass murder in the west, you will see acres of print and online comment on it but conversely, when something similar occurs in the far east; not so much.

Mao was a disaster for China and his legacy still remains.

We are closer to the West culturally and geographically. We will naturally be more interested in what happens in European and English speaking countries like Australia and the USA.

Also having a large Irish emigrant community in those countries will mean we have an interest and possible links to what happens there.

archer22 · 11-01-2013 01:08AM

Stalin had all the hallmarks of a Psychopath he showed empathy or affection for nothing,not even his own son.Hitler was ruthless but capable of empathy..he showed genuine affection for some people and had great affection for Animals..in fact introduced Animal rights legislation that has still not been matched today..which is certainly not the mark of a Psychopath.

dttq · 11-01-2013 01:12AM

touts wrote: »

Without a doubt the extremists on both the Right and the Left were some of the most evil bastards that ever existed. However the media in Ireland tends to be Left wing so the genocide of socialists is somewhat ignored or excused. Hence we don't bat an eyelid at having a Minister (Quinn) with a beard and hair style to pay homage to his hero Lenin or a President who speaks fondly of the writings of Marx. Could you imagine the uproar if Enda Kenny donned a Hitler tash or if Leo Varadkar cited the organisational skills of Mussolini as inspiration for his reorg of CIE.

Yawn.

Cienciano · 11-01-2013 01:16AM

mattjack wrote: »

He was also known for being a good balalaika player and had a fast hand with a revolver.[/I][/I] .... whatever the fuck balalaika is

Jasus, it's a mental looking guitar! Anyone who plays one of these cant be evil:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/Contrabassbalalaika.jpg

dttq · 11-01-2013 01:30AM

archer22 wrote: »

Stalin had all the hallmarks of a Psychopath he showed empathy or affection for nothing,not even his own son.Hitler was ruthless but capable of empathy..he showed genuine affection for some people and had great affection for Animals..in fact introduced Animal rights legislation that has still not been matched today..which is certainly not the mark of a Psychopath.

Well he did gas a few million to death in the most horrific fashion, but he did love furry liggle bunnies. So I suppose in a way, that evens things out.

archer22 · 11-01-2013 01:32AM

dttq wrote: »

Well he did gas a few million to death in the most horrific fashion, but he did love furry liggle bunnies. So I suppose in a way, that evens things out.

I think you managed to totally miss the point.Read again the question asked in this thread!!

solas111 · 11-01-2013 01:35AM

biko wrote: »

One thing for Stalin though, without him we'd all be speaking German now.

We probably will be speaking German before long. Hitler fought with guns and bombs and lost. Lessons have been learned and the present crowd are using smarter weapons. Little by little we will become good little Bavarians.

The following headline in the horrible Independent says it all:

“Germans name Kenny as European of the Year”

What’s the German for tipping the cap?

Was Stalin worse than Hitler?

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