Are you ashamed of Ireland post 'celtic tiger'?

repsol · 10-01-2013 12:21AM

carlmango11 wrote: »

Why is there so much begrudgery towards the times when the country was doing well? Yes, people had a lot of money and were purchasing lots of nice things. Is that a bad thing? Some circles developed a money culture but I think the extent of this is horribly exaggerated.

It's almost like people hated wealth. So happy to see prosperity come to an end. Why? Classic catholic self-hatred

The only people who hate wealth are those who have none of their own.Wealth is a great freedom.It allows you do what you like,when you like ,where you like.Having the money,for example to pay for health insurance can be the difference between living and dying in this country.I'm not saying its right but it is a fact,VHI lets you jump the queue.Who doesn't like nice things? Who doesn't enjoy nice meals out or nice holidays.A new car is an absolute joy and is also much safer than an older car of the same type.Money allows access to better education and allows you to live in a nicer house in a nicer area.If material goods are not your thing,money allows you to donate to good causes if you so wish.I think it has become PC to spout ****e about how terrible it was during "the good times" and how everyone turned into Gordon Gecko,obsessed with money and property.If we are all so self loathing and anti wealth ,who is buying all the lottery tickets? The prize is after all, a big pile of money!

The King of Moo · 10-01-2013 12:30AM

repsol wrote: »

The only people who hate wealth are those who have none of their own.Wealth is a great freedom.It allows you do what you like,when you like ,where you like.Having the money,for example to pay for health insurance can be the difference between living and dying in this country.I'm not saying its right but it is a fact,VHI lets you jump the queue.Who doesn't like nice things? Who doesn't enjoy nice meals out or nice holidays.A new car is an absolute joy and is also much safer than an older car of the same type.Money allows access to better education and allows you to live in a nicer house in a nicer area.If material goods are not your thing,money allows you to donate to good causes if you so wish.I think it has become PC to spout ****e about how terrible it was during "the good times" and how everyone turned into Gordon Gecko,obsessed with money and property.If we are all so self loathing and anti wealth ,who is buying all the lottery tickets? The prize is after all, a big pile of money!

I'm not sure what you mean by "PC" in this case. "Popular" might be a better word.
I don't think many people would say that everyone became obsessed with wealthy and property during the Boom years, but clearly some people did (without much prior interest) and I don't see anything wrong with pointing that out.
Similarly, lots of people accurately point out that some people who, generally, gained wealth quickly, became snobbish (a certain video provides an example of such snobbery, which is still quite prevalent). Others who became wealthy, or who remained wealthy, did not. But there certainly was an increase in overt class consciousness.

I don't see anything wrong in pointing these things out, and doing so does not necessarily make one, for example, a person with a chip on their shoulder (gods, I hate that phrase) jealous of others' success.

Richard Hillman · 10-01-2013 12:34AM

Im proud of the Celtic Tiger. I feel it was our finest ever era as a nation. We would all kill to have those times back no matter how much people posture about materialism.

repsol · 10-01-2013 12:44AM

The King of Moo wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by "PC" in this case. "Popular" might be a better word.
I don't think many people would say that everyone became obsessed with wealthy and property during the Boom years, but clearly some people did (without much prior interest) and I don't see anything wrong with pointing that out.
Similarly, lots of people accurately point out that some people who, generally, gained wealth quickly, became snobbish (a certain video provides an example of such snobbery, which is still quite prevalent). Others who became wealthy, or who remained wealthy, did not. But there certainly was an increase in overt class consciousness.

I don't see anything wrong in pointing these things out, and doing so does not necessarily make one, for example, a person with a chip on their shoulder (gods, I hate that phrase) jealous of others' success.

I used the expression "PC" because it seems individuals have to distance themselves from all the materialism that went on and want everyone to know it.Maybe they weren't excluded by their ideals but rather their lack of finances at the time.

Pottler · 10-01-2013 12:49AM

we were like the gobshyte that gets 10k and thinks they are a millionaire and buys a merc. Simple as. Now we can't afford the new tyres we need.

Senna · 10-01-2013 12:52AM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

It is very hard to find anything to like about the place these days.

There's the door, don't let it hit you on the asshat on the way out.

The King of Moo · 10-01-2013 12:53AM

repsol wrote: »

I used the expression "PC" because it seems individuals have to distance themselves from all the materialism that went on and want everyone to know it.Maybe they weren't excluded by their ideals but rather their lack of finances at the time.

And maybe they were self-excluded by their ideals. I wouldn't presume that they were jealous because they had less money than others. I think it's quite possible for people to have been genuinely dismayed by clear evidence of materialism. I think enough people saw enough cases of people whose behaviour and attitudes changed during the boom years for it to be presumptuous to suggest that most people complaining about Celtic Tiger materialism do so out of envy.

Madam_X · 10-01-2013 12:56AM

Pretty pathetic to be "ashamed" of something you're not responsible for. Couldn't care less if people were too greedy during the "boom" - I very much disagree with being ridiculously extravagant e.g. spending a grand on a kid for Christmas. But it's their problem, not mine.

repsol · 10-01-2013 12:58AM

The King of Moo wrote: »

And maybe they were self-excluded by their ideals. I wouldn't presume that they were jealous because they had less money than others. I think it's quite possible for people to have been genuinely dismayed by clear evidence of materialism. I think enough people saw enough cases of people whose behaviour and attitudes changed during the boom years for it to be presumptuous to suggest that most people complaining about Celtic Tiger materialism do so out of envy.

Didn't hear too many objectors at the time,now they are everywhere and you can't shut them up!

Stheno · 10-01-2013 01:01AM

I think Ireland is a nicer place to be these days.

I was on crutches at on point during the tiger days, and it was horrific, people had no regard for the fact you were hurt.

Been on crutches post tiger and people were much nicer

People are friendlier too, I was in Dunnes tonight, and got a hello, how are you from the cashier, I nearly died of shock (don't shop in Dunnes much)

I think people as well look out for each other more, look at the SSF thread here for an example.

As a country, despite what many will say, a few years ago we were Greece, this week we were oversubscribed x 3 to a bond issue on the international money markets at a very low interest rate, so international financial opinion seems to be that we are getting there.

Our deficit has gone down massively too and while it's been **** (I've taken a paycut of over 30% before increased PRSI/USC/Property/Motor tax) I genuinely think we are and will get there, and we will be a better place to work/live/raise a family as a result.

gurramok · 10-01-2013 01:01AM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Im proud of the Celtic Tiger. I feel it was our finest ever era as a nation. We would all kill to have those times back no matter how much people posture about materialism.

It as based on a huge credit card which we have to pay back now, not proud of that.

Katgurl · 10-01-2013 01:06AM

God I loved the boom, ridiculous business ventures, hameorrhaging cash like it was going out of fashion, round-the-clock social engagements. Happily I was too irresponsible with my monthly wage packet to 'invest' in property so I came out of it debt-free.

Now everything is cheaper and I don't need to be pretend to be rich so i like this period too.

But I've been pretty lucky so I don't expect other people to hold same views.

The King of Moo · 10-01-2013 01:09AM

repsol wrote: »

Didn't hear too many objectors at the time,now they are everywhere and you can't shut them up!

I recall lots of people complaining. I remember writing about the Celtic Tiger in my Leaving Cert Irish essay in 2000. I write about the fact that it didn't affect everyone equally and that more people were materialistic, and this was nothing many other people weren't also saying.

If more people are complaining now, it may be that it can be difficult to notice changes until they've come and gone, and one has a clearer view with hindsight.

LordSutch · 10-01-2013 01:12AM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Are you ashamed of Ireland post 'celtic tiger'?

No, not at all, as I think Irish people are much more 'normal' now in their appirations than during the brash vulgar Celtic Tiger years!

Glad all that in your face 'nouveau riche' money has gone, glad people are not spouting off about the Christmas shopping trips to New York+ their three 4x4s in the drive, glad the kids are not getting so many stretch limos or helicopter rides to their 1st communions, glad people have stopped 'bigging-up' Irelands wealth on TV & radio, like (don't forget, we are now the wealthiest country in the world, bla bla, bloody bla) and all that vulgar brashness. Can't deny it made many jobs and did the economy no end of good, but it was never sustainable for the long term.

wandatowell · 10-01-2013 01:14AM

I'm ashamed that I wasted so much money on crap. Luckily I wised up but still when I think of the yearly wage I was bringing home and I have nothing to show for it.

Now I earn less, pay more taxes but still saving more than I was during the good years.

And you know what? Im all the better for it now

repsol · 10-01-2013 01:16AM

The King of Moo wrote: »

I recall lots of people complaining. I remember writing about the Celtic Tiger in my Leaving Cert Irish essay in 2000. I write about the fact that it didn't affect everyone equally and that more people were materialistic, and this was nothing many other people weren't also saying.

If more people are complaining now, it may be that it can be difficult to notice changes until they've come and gone, and one has a clearer view with hindsight.

They have a name for people like that in America "Monday morning quarter backs".
Nothing constructive to say at the time but great with hindsight.

mikemac1 · 10-01-2013 01:19AM

So many helicopters in Galway for race week that Ballybrit had to hire a controller to coordinate them all and prevent any accidents.

The sky was a-buzzing

Helipad in Renmore, at the Radissson and there were others out westside.

Hiring a helicopter to bring you racing still exists but it's just a fraction of what it used to be.

Random memory

Willie Moran, from Moran's Oyster cottage, long the place of choice for the developers such as the Bailey brothers, Bernard McNamara and others, said the regulars were nowhere to be seen.

"I remember at the height of it we counted 28 helicopters lined up in the fields around us. It was like a scene from Apocalypse Now. Now there's perhaps just two or three at any one time.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/debtridden-developers-shun-ballybrit-2280597.html

dd972 · 10-01-2013 01:23AM

I remember about 2006 or so, a Saturday copy of the Indo had a big section in the Saturday TV mag part about how wealthy we were and how we were up there with the Swiss, the Norwegians and Canada.

I'd just come back from the centre of town (Dublin) which was full of tracksuits and junkies gobbing all over the pavement, and it made me think ''well Zurich or Oslo it ain't, where's all this wealth?''

It's all very well having millionaires in Blackrock and Dalkey but if the place was seriously wealthy Norway style you'd see it in the infrastructure and the appearance and general vibe of the populace.

Irish Musician · 10-01-2013 01:25AM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

What a pathetic place it has turned into. The rot started during the celtic tiger years when a lot of people put their asshats on, got obsessed with materialism, became extremely vacuous and up themselves. I have noticed that attitude still lingers in some.

A celtic tiger hangover, a malevolent government that blatantly lords over us, a downtrodden people, and asshats. It is very hard to find anything to like about the place these days.

Other than the scenery can you think of anything positive?

The only thing anybody should be ever ashamed of is their own actions or inactions. You cant be ashamed of someone elses actions unless you are guilty of aiding and abbetting. I am not ashamed of Ireland,I am not ashamed to be Irish. Ireland is going through a bad time and some people are getting on with it and if I could be proud,but I think the term would be "if I could respect" some people,it would be the ones who are carring on regardless.

Sheeps · 10-01-2013 01:26AM

I quite enjoy living in Ireland, thanks for asking.

bluecode · 10-01-2013 01:33AM

I was ashamed of Ireland before the boom. It was a pathetic little backward country dominated by the church, the politicians and a few well connected people. They rest of us could go hang.

During the boom I slowly began to take pride in Ireland. He was proof that the ordinary Irish people could work alongside anyone. Let's be clear they were good times. Everyone could have a job, sometimes two. There was optimism in this country that never existed before. We could perhaps dream that we could take our place alongside other affluent European countries. Sure there were warning signs and excesses. The extraordinary number of helicopters for one. Apparently we had more per head of population than the USA. Then there was cost of living which spiralled. A nurse in a private clinic told my wife that they were very busy with cosmetic surgery, mostly from people who had cash businesses. They were raking it in. Of course there was also the property bubble.

I'm back being ashamed of this country. Ashamed of myself for not seeing it coming. Ashamed of the way the boom was manipulated by the same old crooks who always had the money even in the bad times and who even now escape their responsibilities. I'm also ashamed that throughout Europe we are seen as lazy and stupid again. But also greedy now. Despite the fact that for the most part it's not true.

I'm particularly ashamed I voted for this government who have no shame and have continued to protect vested interests while screwing the rest of us as if we had caused the recession.

I won't make that mistake again.

Irish Musician · 10-01-2013 01:39AM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

What a pathetic place it has turned into. The rot started during the celtic tiger years when a lot of people put their asshats on, got obsessed with materialism, became extremely vacuous and up themselves. I have noticed that attitude still lingers in some.

A celtic tiger hangover, a malevolent government that blatantly lords over us, a downtrodden people, and asshats. It is very hard to find anything to like about the place these days.

Other than the scenery can you think of anything positive?

The only thing anybody should be ever ashamed of is their own actions or inactions. You cant be ashamed of someone elses actions unless you are guilty of aiding and abbetting. I am not ashamed of Ireland,I am not ashamed to be Irish. Ireland is going through a bad time and some people are getting on with it and if I could be proud,but I think the term would be "if I could respect" some people,it would be the ones who are carring on regardless.

long range shooter · 10-01-2013 01:48AM

dd972 wrote: »

I'd just come back from the centre of town (Dublin) which was full of tracksuits and junkies gobbing all over the pavement, and it made me think ''well Zurich or Oslo it ain't, where's all this wealth?''

.

It's just the same in Oslo,unfortunately

Mickey H · 10-01-2013 01:48AM

The King of Moo wrote: »

The use of the word "asshat" has increased exponentially, which is something I suppose.

But I'm not ashamed of Ireland because I'm not responsible for the way it is, and I don't think it's very different from other developed countries. Like them, there are good, bad and average things about it.

Well said Moo. Even during the boom, Ireland had its good, bad & ugly bits.

Durz0 Blint · 10-01-2013 02:22AM

€2 chicken fillet rolls

Every cloud and all that

humbert · 10-01-2013 03:35AM

During the boom a lot of people got rich. A lot of people are asshats, which means a fair few asshats got rich.
A rich asshat is more annoying than a poor asshat because they are richer than you and it's a boost to their ego.
I believe the number of asshats hasn't changed very much, for better or for worse.

LordSutch · 10-01-2013 11:40AM

dd972 wrote: »

I remember about 2006 or so, a Saturday copy of the Indo had a big section in the Saturday TV mag part about how wealthy we were and how we were up there with the Swiss, the Norwegians and Canada. I'd just come back from the centre of town (Dublin) which was full of tracksuits and junkies gobbing all over the pavement, and it made me think ''well Zurich or Oslo it ain't, where's all this wealth?''

It's all very well having millionaires in Blackrock and Dalkey but if the place was seriously wealthy Norway style you'd see it in the infrastructure, and the appearance and general vibe of the populace.

Very well said my friend, and I actually remember that particular piece in the Inde (2006), and I also remember the day to day crap on the radio about how wealthy Ireland was, and how much money there was in the country, and yet when I came back from abroad I would always be amazed at the lack of infrastructure and public amenities (swimming pools and the like).

I also remember one radio show that spouted off so much about Irelands wealth that I was prompted into texting them, to point out that they kept omiting the words "Per Capita" and that all that per capita wealth they loved so much was bound up in highly inflated property prices, which was not reflected in Irish society as a whole.

Solair · 10-01-2013 11:50AM

I think though you have to distinguish between the Celtic Tiger - A period of rapid economic expansion based on actual export industries in the 1990s and early 2000s and the Celtic Fat Cat that emerged after that which was based insane credit-based spending, turning a blind eye to risk and being totally arrogant.

The actual celtic tiger years were great. Positive, forward-looking, an era when we started to feel we'd a decent country and could really do anything.

Then it all went pear shaped and became about property speculation and banking and having matching his and her helicopters which you borrowed the money for from Anglo and the lads.

I sincerely hope we can actually get back to the real celtic tigre years again. Getting rid of all the poop that the Celtic Fat Cat left around the place is going to take quite a while though!

Never feed your cat on champaign, truffles, caviar and wads of cash - the byproducts are absolutely disgusting and it takes years to get the smell out of your house!

AudreyHepburn · 10-01-2013 12:21PM

I am proud to be Irish and love our little island.

But I am ashamed to be associated with this downtrodden, begrudging attitude that has developed of late and the outright refusal to take personal responsability for anything that permeates all levels of society nowadays from those in power who abused that power to the ordinary joe on the street who will not acknowledge and accept that he really did not need that huge mortgage or extra properties for which he is now paying.

TheNap · 10-01-2013 12:37PM

People who annoy me in Ireland at the moment as people who have a fine job, but leave Ireland to go 'live the dream in Oz'. They will go over on a few years of a holiday. Drink themselves silly and probably come back in a few years when things are looking better. Whereas people who where sold the dream 10 years ago of getting a trade here are currently in long term unemployment and cant afford to emigrate to make a proper living. Another thing that annoys me is people who have gone to pastures new contanstly telling me how great it is and how they cant believe im still in this 'kip' of a country . Em im quite happy here thanks .

Are you ashamed of Ireland post 'celtic tiger'?

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