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Sick and tired of Bus Éireann

2

Comments

  • #32
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,730 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    No - we've got a bit off-topic!


  • #33
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Why not?

    As I've pointed out the cash fares have been deliberately increased by the NTA at a higher percentage rate than LEAP to incentivise people to switch.

    You are not comparing like with like and it's like comparing a sale price in a shop from a few years ago with a pre-sale price this year.

    Simply because most journeys aren't made with it.


  • #34
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,272 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Simply because most journeys aren't made with it.


    To be fair to LX, he is right in saying what he is here. The LEAP fare there for all to avail off without jumping through hoops or complex procedure to follow; it is customers look out if they choose not to use LEAP and get cheaper fares.


  • #35
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    To be fair to LX, he is right in saying what he is here. The LEAP fare there for all to avail off without jumping through hoops or complex procedure to follow; it is customers look out if they choose not to use LEAP and get cheaper fares.

    Wait till you get overcharged and have to go searching for a refund, you must attend Dublin bus HQ in person for any DB refunds while at least the others are paid back to your card you may be told to jump between Irish Rail and Leap a few times before anyone takes ownership of it!

    god help us if it ever gets rolled out fully on Bus Éireann.


  • #36
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    To be fair to LX, he is right in saying what he is here. The LEAP fare there for all to avail off without jumping through hoops or complex procedure to follow; it is customers look out if they choose not to use LEAP and get cheaper fares.

    The real,and VERY important,issue here is the numbers of Commuters who are choosing to avoid Leapcard.

    The ones I commune with daily who tell me that because they only use the Bus occasionally they would have no need for a Leapcard....:rolleyes:

    Somewhere,somehow,the NTA have singularly failed to place Leapcard within the grasp of the very group it is specifically aimed at currently !!!

    Relaunch Leapcard NOW !

    Make it VISIBLE....if the NTA do not address this problem rapidly,then no amount of new products,"coming soon" will increase its market penetration.....

    For example,how much damage has this article done today,in the mind of a potential customer who has never even seen a Leapcard....

    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/91716?userlanguage=ga&save_prefs=true

    Leapcard do not have a guaranteed customer base,they will have to work for it,and as yet,I see little sign that they realize this ! :mad:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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  • #37
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    To be fair to LX, he is right in saying what he is here. The LEAP fare there for all to avail off without jumping through hoops or complex procedure to follow; it is customers look out if they choose not to use LEAP and get cheaper fares.

    You could say the same thing for T90's over paying cash/leap fare for 13+ stages. It doesn't change that most people are purchasing with cash as opposed to Leap. The availability of it doesn't mean much without a significant uptake whereby the amount of leap fares taken are greater than the amount of Cash fares taken. Until then, the Cash fare is going to be the concern of most consumers.


  • #38
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,730 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Simply because most journeys aren't made with it.

    As someone who professionally works with figures day in day out and has to make decisions based on them, I'd like to think I know what's relevant and what is not in terms of making an informed decision and comparing like with like.

    Simply because the majority of people choose to pay an artificially inflated cash fare does not make it more relevant than LEAP. It says people are not thinking with their heads.


  • #39
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    For example,how much damage has this article done today,in the mind of a potential customer who has never even seen a Leapcard....

    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/91716?userlanguage=ga&save_prefs=true

    Leapcard do not have a guaranteed customer base,they will have to work for it,and as yet,I see little sign that they realize this ! :mad:

    Eh...

    "In support of Pamela Izevbekhai and her daughters"

    :pac:


  • #40
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    lxflyer wrote: »
    As someone who professionally works with figures day in day out and has to make decisions based on them, I'd like to think I know what's relevant and what is not in terms of making an informed decision and comparing like with like.

    Simply because the majority of people choose to pay an artificially inflated cash fare does not make it more relevant than LEAP. It says people are not thinking with their heads.
    It says they would rather cut off their heads than use the leap card!


  • #41
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,730 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    You could say the same thing for T90's over paying cash/leap fare for 13+ stages. It doesn't change that most people are purchasing with cash as opposed to Leap. The availability of it doesn't mean much without a significant uptake whereby the amount of leap fares taken are greater than the amount of Cash fares taken. Until then, the Cash fare is going to be the concern of most consumers.

    Dravokivich - you're missing the fundamental point that the cash fares were deliberately increased by a higher percentage than LEAP fares were - in order to dis-incentivise paying by cash.


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  • #42
    dudara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    The real,and VERY important,issue here is the numbers of Commuters who are choosing to avoid Leapcard.

    The ones I commune with daily who tell me that because they only use the Bus occasionally they would have no need for a Leapcard....:rolleyes:

    Somewhere,somehow,the NTA have singularly failed to place Leapcard within the grasp of the very group it is specifically aimed at currently !!!

    One major issue with the Leap card is that your online topups have to be collected at a Luas or DART station, or at a Payzone retailer. The ticket machines on the bus cannot transmit the topup to your card. This is a wee bit of an inconvenience. I would be mainly a bus user, but once every so often, I take the Luas home so that I can collect my card topup.


  • #43
    lil5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 430 ✭✭lil5


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Dravokivich - you're missing the fundamental point ...

    He's not missing any point - he is fundamentally comparing a cash fare with another cash fare.


  • #44
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    it is customers look out if they choose not to use LEAP and get cheaper fares.

    Totally agree with that - for some reason people in Dublin have this fascination in paying with cash, the irony is they are usually the ones that moan that Dublin Bus or Irish Rail is ripping them off
    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Simply because most journeys aren't made with it.

    See above post - maybe they are not, but the fare still exists and if people want to still pay in cash they have that choice, but it really annoys me to see people come on boards and moan about cash fare rises then say they don't want to get a leap card.
    AlekSmart wrote: »
    The real,and VERY important,issue here is the numbers of Commuters who are choosing to avoid Leapcard.

    For example,how much damage has this article done today,in the mind of a potential customer who has never even seen a Leapcard....

    Leapcard do not have a guaranteed customer base,they will have to work for it,and as yet,I see little sign that they realize this ! :mad:

    It doesn't help when the press are printing articles such as in today's Indy which are misleading to say the least. It gives off the impression the leap card is to blame for overcharging and scares people off using it, despite the fact that the bulk of the problem is due to failures with equipment from Irish Rail.
    A more accurate headline would have been "Commuters overcharged due to Irish Rail Validator Issues"
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    It says they would rather cut off their heads than use the leap card!

    And the majority of people who say such things generally have not used the card at all and actually just go on the hyperbole that is pushed in the press and by people like you on here who vastly exaggerate every little thing to suit you own agenda which is basically bash Irish Rail for everything, bash every single bus driver in any CIE company and bash the leap card for anything possible even when it is out of their hands.
    lxflyer wrote: »
    Simply because the majority of people choose to pay an artificially inflated cash fare does not make it more relevant than LEAP. It says people are not thinking with their heads.

    Well said.


  • #45
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    lxflyer wrote: »
    As someone who professionally works with figures day in day out and has to make decisions based on them, I'd like to think I know what's relevant and what is not in terms of making an informed decision and comparing like with like.

    That'll be what's relevant to you along with how you choose to perceive and use such information. It's visibly evident that the large number of consumers have decided not to if they persist in paying cash fares.
    lxflyer wrote: »
    Simply because the majority of people choose to pay an artificially inflated cash fare does not make it more relevant than LEAP. It says people are not thinking with their heads.

    However artificial they may be, it is still a fare that has been set for consumers to pay in the manner which they choose to pay. Whether or not it's down to them not using their heads, well, that depends on why they decided not to take up on using a leap card.
    lxflyer wrote: »
    Dravokivich - you're missing the fundamental point that the cash fares were deliberately increased by a higher percentage than LEAP fares were - in order to dis-incentivise paying by cash.

    I'm not. Until such a time it's been shown that's occured, it's still pretty much a case of, cash is king.


  • #46
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    lil5 wrote: »
    He's not missing any point - he is fundamentally comparing a cash fare with another cash fare.

    I think a more valid comparison is the cheapest prepay fare possible.

    Although as I stated in my last post, people in Dublin have this bizarre fascination with paying in cash that they seem not to let go of.

    Perhaps you should go and compare cash fare on London buses before Oyster and a few years after and see thee big difference there.

    I'm sure the cash fare will come out terrible value and much larger. But then again almost nobody uses cash as they found out Oyster was much cheaper.


  • #47
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    It's visibly evident that the large number of consumers have decided not to if they persist in paying cash fares.

    But my point is this, if they have chosen to pay more for their fare then you know it's a bit laughable to see people then complain that there fare is too expensive when they are not being forced to pay a larger fare, they are actually openly choosing to do so

    It's like buying something from a local shop and buying a more expensive version of the same thing and moaning it's too expensive, but at the same time deciding not to buy the cheaper one that is also as an option.

    Nobody is forced to pay cash, although you'd swear some people were from some things I read on here at times.
    I'm not. Until such a time it's been shown that's occured, it's still pretty much a case of, cash is king.

    Again I'm not sure why people in Dublin are obsessed by paying in cash. Cash may well be king to some people, but as I said such people then shouldn't complain that their fare is too expensive.

    It's like someone paying 2x maximum cash fares a day rather than buying a prepaid ticket, they are another group who moan about fares being too high, but again they have a huge range of tickets they are able to buy but choose not to, but then go off on a rant about the fares being too high.


  • #48
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,730 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    That'll be what's relevant to you along with how you choose to perceive and use such information. It's visibly evident that the large number of consumers have decided not to if they persist in paying cash fares.



    However artificial they may be, it is still a fare that has been set for consumers to pay in the manner which they choose to pay. Whether or not it's down to them not using their heads, well, that depends on why they decided not to take up on using a leap card.



    I'm not. Until such a time it's been shown that's occured, it's still pretty much a case of, cash is king.

    What more is needed than the following from the NTA fare determinations:
    The Authority is nevertheless mindful of the cost-of-living issues that are affecting commuters and of providing value and alternatives. Customers migrating from cash to Leap will notice increased savings with the differential for adults widening for each of the fare bands, from an average of 10% to 12%, through lower Leap fare increases. In respect of children, customers will also observe increased savings in migrating from cash to Leap card with the differential increasing from an average of 7% to 9.6% and also that Leap card schoolchild (i.e. a child travelling in the school hours period) fares have been kept constant with a differential increased to 12.5% relative to cash fares.


  • #49
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    All my point was, is that because leap is available now, while also being cheaper to use, doesn't make complaints from people about cash fares any less relevant. With leap still being as fresh as it is, it shouldn't be considered the standard method of payment for fares. You can question peoples use of cash and dismiss'em for it all you want. But that doesn't stop people from complaining about if they wish regardless of the other options (made)known to them.


  • #50
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,272 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    You could say the same thing for T90's over paying cash/leap fare for 13+ stages. It doesn't change that most people are purchasing with cash as opposed to Leap. The availability of it doesn't mean much without a significant uptake whereby the amount of leap fares taken are greater than the amount of Cash fares taken. Until then, the Cash fare is going to be the concern of most consumers.

    Apples and oranges regards a T 90 and it's off the point. LEAP is a direct alternative to cash. LEAP fares are cheaper than cash fares. LEAP is widely available to buy and to top up all over the city. While it's faults and implementation are many, there is no getting past the fact that it is readily available and that there are no strings attached.


  • #51
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    All my point was, is that because leap is available now, while also being cheaper to use, doesn't make complaints from people about cash fares any less relevant.

    Sorry but I couldn't disagree more, someone complaining their fare is too expensive but then turning down the options to pay less do not have a complaint that is really relevant, it just shows people who are too resistant to change and don't want to move with the times.

    In the last few years, whilst there is still a long way to go, we've seen real improvements in the way transport is run, with the Leap Card, Real Time information, much more modern spec vehicles (GT's), a proper national journey planner, proper trueform bus stops, mobile apps just to name a few things.

    Bus transport in this country until a few years ago was stuck in a time warp where it was way behind other comparable cities in Europe, but even as someone who doesn't use the bus on a regular basis anymore, even I can see that getting the bus now and getting information is a better experience than it was five years ago. Sure there are still problems that need to be overcome but the system is developing.

    Although the amount of people who I see are very resistant to change and moving things forward really astounds me, I don't think any other capital city I've been in has a fixation on cash fares like people do in Dublin, nearly everyone has either hiked cash fares up heavily in favour of prepay smartcards or in some countries buying tickets from a driver is not even possible.


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  • #52
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,256 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    All this petty bickering and namecalling - another day on C&T :rolleyes:

    Comparing one cash fare to another seems fair game to me. You could argue that back in the 2006 time frame mentioned there were 10-journey tickets, Travel 90s etc too. Maybe we should be factoring those in?

    The simple fact is (as the VAST thread on the subject will attest to, couple with people like Alek's own "on the ground" day-to-day experience) is that LEAP in its current form is arguably a failure - hence why most(?) commuters aren't using it.

    Regardless, public transport in this country (at least state-involved options) is too expensive and too inconsistent (in terms of reliability, customer service etc) no matter what pricing options are available.

    Anyway (somewhat) back on topic!

    Someone on the comments for the Breaking News article on the upcoming strike posted the following...
    Staffing Cost Comparison

    Operator £ €
    Arriva Northumbria £23,784 €29,730
    Arriva Cymru £21,285 €26,606
    Red and White £20,609 €25,761
    First Devon & Cornwall £21,986 €27,483
    Stagecoach Devon £22,201 €27,751
    Lincolnshire Road Car £21,695 €27,119
    Arriva Midlands £22,685 € 28,356
    Ulsterbus £ 25,315 €31,644
    Bus Éireann £39,803 €49,754
    Average currency conversion rate of €1:£0.8 or £1:€1.25

    (apparently from this report)

    That's a huge difference that the BE lads are getting! No wonder the fares are so high!


  • #53
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    That list deliberately selected the areas with the lowest average pay in the UK, it's well know that the average pay in NI, Devon and Cornwall, Northumbria, and Wales is in the bottom quarter of places in the UK in any industry. That study was a little bit biased in that respect.

    A much fairer comparison would be comparing the operators who operate in the big cities, that would have a higher cost of living, and therefore higher pay rates so I don't think that cherry picking of numbers is valid at all to this argument.

    I posted a couple of months ago the facts taken from the latest accounts, and using a simple wage bill divided by staff formula I came up with the following

    Bus Eireann average wage: €50,623
    Irish Rail average wage: €53,108
    Dublin Bus average wage: €52,656

    Some comparable companies
    Aircoach (Dublin, Ireland, Cork, Ireland): €37.713
    Lothian (Edinburgh, Scotland): €42,765
    First Manchester: €30,470

    I was going to quote National Express Midlands and a few Stagecoach companies but they seem to divide their companies into a few parent ones rather than having lots of smaller ones for each city/county.

    As said before, that is a quick and dirty way to work out the average salary in the company, what it does not show us is what grades of staff are getting high wages, if there are a small group of managers on huge salaries for instance, this will push the average wage higher.


  • #54
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,730 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    To be fair Kaiser, the reason I am holding firm on this is that people are choosing to pay more than they need to - and therefore by complaining about comparative cash fares they are missing the fundamental point that they're paying too much!

    People need (and I've been banging on about this for several years here) to become far more savvy about how they pay for public transport and use all of the available options available.


  • #55
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    schemingbohemia wrote: »
    They can't win, provide a good frequent service and they're accused of saturating a route?
    While it is a very good service it's not attracting much competition, which might explain the high fares. As regards winning, BÉ shouldn't be the winner, it should be the consumer.


  • #56
    currins_02
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 133 ✭✭currins_02


    As stated those wage rates do not account for pay grades and high earners will pull the average up but it shoudl also be noted BE have hundreds of outstationed part time school bus drivers who ware paid low part time wages, these guys will be pulling the average down too.


  • #57
    Niles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭Niles


    ANXIOUS wrote: »
    The thing that annoys me most is that you can't use return tickets the same way.

    I don't mind that... but take a look at their return fares on the website, the midweek return is now the same price as a monthly return (at least this is the case on the 001 and 002 routes, haven't had reason to check others). This defeats the purpose of having a midweek return... which was meant to make travel on less busy days cheaper.

    On a positive note the cost of a day return didn't go up this time...


  • #58
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    Anyway (somewhat) back on topic!

    That's a huge difference that the BE lads are getting! No wonder the fares are so high!

    My more simplistic yardstick would be to evaluate the numbers of Drivers and associated blue-collar staff in those highly specific low wage companies who are currently paying massive mortgages and commuting from appropriately distant homes.

    Wage and salary inflation in Ireland is,like it or not,more than a Public Transport specific issue.

    But who shall blink first and take the realignment .....can't see any queues yet....?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #59
    ANXIOUS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭ANXIOUS


    Niles wrote: »
    I don't mind that... but take a look at their return fares on the website, the midweek return is now the same price as a monthly return (at least this is the case on the 001 and 002 routes, haven't had reason to check others). This defeats the purpose of having a midweek return... which was meant to make travel on less busy days cheaper.

    On a positive note the cost of a day return didn't go up this time...

    The reason it annoys me is that the schedule is only convenient for me one way, on the way home I use a private compant that allows me to use the ticket the same way.


  • #60
    twinkylinky
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 ✭twinkylinky


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    €12 from Dublin to Navan? whats wrong with that? where else will you get a journey of that length at that price?
    single.. bare in mind. not even a return. navan aint that far from dublin. honestly shdnt b dat much


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  • #61
    twinkylinky
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 ✭twinkylinky


    i am obviously complaining becase the fare has increased annually also. atleast your fairs arent over €4.. we are hitting over €15. same price as galway.. come on ... they should guve us a break


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