Kenya suffers worst single loss of elephants as poachers kill 12

liammur · 08-01-2013 11:10PM

EnterNow wrote: »

A quarter of a billion dollars would help a lot of people over there...regardless of what percentage of GDP it is, don't you think? I'm not saying they should divert their entire military budget for humanitarianism or anything, my point is that there's more money in those countries than people think.

Yes, every country spends far too much on military, although there's probably a 'rebel' problem over there :mad:

Myrddin · 08-01-2013 11:17PM

liammur wrote: »

Yes, every country spends far too much on military, although there's probably a 'rebel' problem over there :mad:

Indeed, unfortunately its the citizens & the indiginous wildlife that tends to lose out...which is sad

MadsL · 08-01-2013 11:19PM

EnterNow wrote: »

What the hell does it matter if they are endangered or not?

Because if they aren't then it is about as much a problem as sheep rustling.
Poaching is a problem that has been largely dealt with in many parts of Africa as villagers see how much revenue well managed parks bring in to the economy, as a consequence poaching has declined. A shoot to kill on sight policy by rangers has also helped.

They were killed for their ivory, in order for that to be sold on a market where its believed to have medicinal value. If you ask me thats a needless, brutal & frankly pathetic reason to kill an animal...any animal, not just cute little elephants.

Of course it is, where did I say any different? That's why we ban Ivory.

I agree, it should start in our back yards so to speak. This isn't necessarily a 3rd world/high horse problem, its worldwide. Its needless, & is never right.

And we agree. But high profile animals like elephants get far more attention, and are now recovering in numbers very nicely. Let's move on, and closer to home.

No I don't expect them to behave like model governments, largely because I don't believe such a thing exists anywhere...let alone a struggling country. But don't tell me for a moment that resources could not be better spent to help those in need, rather than a fleet of new fighter jets. The goverments in the countries of Africa arn't responsible for a famine, but they and the 1st world countries who hold them in savage death are responsible for not doing enough to fight famine...all the while being highly corrupt & self serving.

And how do those countries protect themselves from their more recklessly spending neighbours? Congo is spending 20% of GDP on miltech. Rely on the UN/US?
Ireland spends 84 times what Ethiopia spends on military per head of population and has no border threats at all except for small paramilitary groups in the north. Ethiopia is coping with Sudan and Eritrea ffs.

liammur · 08-01-2013 11:20PM

EnterNow wrote: »

Indeed, unfortunately its the citizens & the indiginous wildlife that tends to lose out...which is sad

Very true. You see people starving and then these warlords with major guns going around the place. How did society ever become to that.

liammur · 08-01-2013 11:23PM

MadsL wrote: »

Because if they aren't then it is about as much a problem as sheep rustling.
Poaching is a problem that has been largely dealt with in many parts of Africa as villagers see how much revenue well managed parks bring in to the economy, as a consequence poaching has declined. A shoot to kill on sight policy by rangers has also helped.

Of course it is, where did I say any different? That's why we ban Ivory.

And we agree. But high profile animals like elephants get far more attention, and are now recovering in numbers very nicely. Let's move on, and closer to home.

And how do those countries protect themselves from their more recklessly spending neighbours? Congo is spending 20% of GDP on miltech. Rely on the UN/US?
Ireland spends 84 times what Ethiopia spends on military per head of population and has no border threats at all except for small paramilitary groups in the north. Ethiopia is coping with Sudan and Eritrea ffs.

All our money goes on soldier's wages sitting on their arse somewhere, it's a disgrace, what do we need an army for? Ethiopa is probably swamped with rebels and warlords.

MadsL · 08-01-2013 11:26PM

liammur wrote: »

All our money goes on soldier's wages sitting on their arse somewhere, it's a disgrace, what do we need an army for? Ethiopa is probably swamped with rebels and warlords.

If I gave the same statistic for police spending would you fel the same way. In many countries, Ireland included, the military perform a police function.

liammur · 08-01-2013 11:28PM

MadsL wrote: »

If I gave the same statistic for police spending would you fel the same way. In many countries, Ireland included, the military perform a police function.

Yes, we have far too many police, and I'm glad to see this number getting axed.

Myrddin · 08-01-2013 11:29PM

MadsL wrote: »

Because if they aren't then it is about as much a problem as sheep rustling.
Poaching is a problem that has been largely dealt with in many parts of Africa as villagers see how much revenue well managed parks bring in to the economy, as a consequence poaching has declined. A shoot to kill on sight policy by rangers has also helped.

Thats the point I made, this isn't a rich westerner high horse thing, even locals can be educated to see the benefit these animals bring.

Of course it is, where did I say any different? That's why we ban Ivory.

You didn't, again I'm making the point that this isn't a mere reaction to a sensationalist article, its genuinely just wrong.

And we agree. But high profile animals like elephants get far more attention, and are now recovering in numbers very nicely. Let's move on, and closer to home.

Well its like dolphins, the more intelligent the animal the harder it is to look at when they're slaughtered for no reason. I can accept that sheep & cows are farmed, & have been for a long time. In remote tribes etc, the farm animal brings many benefits, and benefits itself from the symbiotic relationship with man. Whats a different matter though, is the needless slaughter of what I'd class as intelligent animals for nothing more than what grows on their face.

When a sheep is killed, every part of it is used, similar to pigs/cows whatever you can think of in a farm environment. When an elephant is killed, its brutally maimed & has the ivory sawn off its head & done so while its still alive in a lot of cases. Its then discarded & left to rot, its disgusting & quite different to how farm animals are dispatched.

And how do those countries protect themselves from their more recklessly spending neighbours? Congo is spending 20% of GDP on miltech. Rely on the UN/US?
Ireland spends 84 times what Ethiopia spends on military per head of population and has no border threats at all except for small paramilitary groups in the north. Ethiopia is coping with Sudan and Eritrea ffs.

I grant you that, there are reasons to be well protected. I'm simply saying, that these countries have very very rich politicians, very very rich friends & spend a lot of money on things other than whats shown in the Concern ads.

MadsL · 08-01-2013 11:34PM

EnterNow wrote: »

I grant you that, there are reasons to be well protected. I'm simply saying, that these countries have very very rich politicians, very very rich friends & spend a lot of money on things other than whats shown in the Concern ads.

Jesus, it has a literacy rate of 28% and has to live next door to Somalia ffs. If it was hard to come to the realisation that FF bled the country dry here, what hope has Ethiopia?? Give them a break.

Cookie_Monster · 08-01-2013 11:34PM

MadsL wrote: »

Fcks sake people enough with the hate, all I said was that elephant populations have recovered to the point that many game reservations now control growth in population. Overpopulation by elephants is incredibly destructive in certain areas.

game reserve which occupy only a tiny fraction of the land mass elephants once roamed. outside of reserves the numbers are still hugely down. But unfotunitly they can't even relocate them to build up sustainable pops everywhere as they'll just be killed by the local idiots

MadsL · 08-01-2013 11:38PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

game reserve which occupy only a tiny fraction of the land mass elephants once roamed. outside of reserves the numbers are still hugely down. But unfotunitly they can't even relocate them to build up sustainable pops everywhere as they'll just be killed by the local idiots

Yes they are, savannah elephant populations in West Africa are now 400,000 compared to about 4 million in the 80s.

Ironically it is the military dealing with cross-border raids form people who are not "the local idiots" but from the likes of Chad and Sudan. But we don't want military spending in Africa do we...:rolleyes:

Meanwhile some real local idiots here shoot curlews.

Vegeta · 08-01-2013 11:44PM

MadsL wrote: »

I agree. Which is why getting all misty-eyed over a poaching problem in a country where elephants are not endangered is rich coming from a country that is shooting its indigenous curlew population to extinction. That's the truth of the bigger picture.

Thankfully there is no open season for curlew anymore.

MadsL · 08-01-2013 11:47PM

Vegeta wrote: »

Thankfully there is no open season for curlew anymore.

That was by no means an uninformed dig at the shooting community by the way, the shooting/hunting do a lot for conservation and ensuring species numbers remain protected.

I've never understood why people shoot curlews though?

Vegeta · 09-01-2013 12:19AM

MadsL wrote: »

That was by no means an uninformed dig at the shooting community by the way, the shooting/hunting do a lot for conservation and ensuring species numbers remain protected.

I've never understood why people shoot curlews though?

Don't worry I didn't see it as a dig. Having an open season for red listed species makes no sense at all and is not a position I would defend.

Pottler · 09-01-2013 12:46AM

Havn't managed to read through the thread, but in fairness, she can well afford to buy some more, all them records she sold with Clannad, not to mention her solo career.

steddyeddy · 09-01-2013 12:47AM

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

I really hate this high horse crap. Put yourself in an Africans shoes. No work, no money, no food. I'd probably be out killing rhinos and elephants and what not in that situation.
Why do you think only rich Westerners give a crap about animals? Because we have it all. We're far more responsible for raping the earth with the amount of stuff we consume, which means forests are cut down, palm oil plantations, etc, just so we can have year round crops of everything, and the latest gadgets and computers. Half the vegetables in Tesco, at least here in the UK, seem to come from Kenya for e.g.
Westerners are far more greedy than a few Africans hunting an elephant.

Again you're misinformed. The poachers have substantial wealth most of the time. They use helicopters to get in and out of protected areas.

steddyeddy · 09-01-2013 12:50AM

Oranage2 wrote: »

That sounds amazing, i can only imagine the delight on the local children's faces seeing a baby elephant being looked after for 9k as they starve to death.

Far more money goes into fighting starvation. Would you prefer that we invest no money in anything else because starvation exists?

Your quote could read as:

That sounds amazing, i can only imagine the delight on the local children's faces seeing a baby elephant being looked after/money towards barnardos/ispca/dspca/anyother charity for 9k as they starve to death

MadsL · 09-01-2013 12:52AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Again you're misinformed. The poachers have substantial wealth most of the time. They use helicopters horses to get in and out of protected areas.

FYP

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2012/10/05/elephant-poachers-caught-in-chad-protection-efforts-stepped-up/

steddyeddy · 09-01-2013 12:52AM

MadsL wrote: »

Ah for fucks sake, I never condoned poaching, nor do I.

Read my posts please.

Maybe I should have just responded..."Ah, the poor eles, like if it meks u cry evrytim". Seriously, me commenting that in park areas of Kenya elephant numbers are controlled is not, nor will it ever be, condoning poaching.

And while you are up in arms, you might want to check the fact that Irish farmers and rough shooters have shot the curlew almost to extinction
http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/Publications/eWings/eWingsIssue22July2011/CatastrophicCurlewdeclinesuncovered/tabid/1189/Default.aspx

Also in fact licenced and controlled elephant shoots are helping to provide vital money, aid and food for African villages.

Elephants dont need to be controlled. Any hunter who shoots and elephant is an idoit frankly. I am not anti hunting where needed but someone who shoots a creature as intelligent as an elephant has no humanity.

steddyeddy · 09-01-2013 12:53AM

MadsL wrote: »

FYP

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2012/10/05/elephant-poachers-caught-in-chad-protection-efforts-stepped-up/

Actually helicoptors are also used.

MadsL · 09-01-2013 12:57AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Elephants dont need to be controlled.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/may/02/endangeredspecies.southafrica

South Africa begs to differ.

Any hunter who shoots and elephant is an idoit frankly. I am not anti hunting where needed but someone who shoots a creature as intelligent as an elephant has no humanity.

Even if selling the right to shoot a culled animal might build a school for a village. Legal and population controlling 'hunts' can generate $35,000 plus meat for an entire village.

MadsL · 09-01-2013 01:00AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Actually helicoptors are also used.

Chad has the biggest poaching problem. Horses and AKs.

steddyeddy · 09-01-2013 01:02AM

To those that understand that all other non human animals aren't here to be shot here's a video detail the intelligence and empathy of elephants and how they mourn their own dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx3B1VuGZro

Pottler · 09-01-2013 01:04AM

MadsL wrote: »

Chad has the biggest poaching problem. Horses and AKs.

I can understand how they poach horses, but finding a wild AK must be hard, let alone hitting it. I presume they hunt them for their wood?
Any gimp who rocks up looking to pay 35k to shoot an elephant should be quietly brought out into the Veld, held at gunpoint until they transfer all their money to a charitable account set up especially for the purpose and then released, barefoot with a pork-chop stapled to their as5, in Lion territory. If your idea of "fun" is shooting an elephant, you are a cnut, IMO.:)

steddyeddy · 09-01-2013 01:05AM

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/may/02/endangeredspecies.southafrica

South Africa begs to differ.

Even if selling the right to shoot a culled animal might build a school for a village. Legal and population controlling 'hunts' can generate $35,000 plus meat for an entire village.

Every other elephant expert such as Ian Redmond disagrees. I dont care how much money it would raise. It's wrong to shoot an intelligent animal.

steddyeddy · 09-01-2013 01:09AM

Pottler wrote: »

I can understand how they poach horses, but finding a wild AK must be hard, let alone hitting it. I presume they hunt them for their wood?
Any gimp who rocks up looking to pay 35k to shoot an elephant should be quietly brought out into the Veld, held at gunpoint until they transfer all their money to a charitable account set up especially for the purpose and then released, barefoot with a pork-chop stapled to their as5, in Lion territory. If your idea of "fun" is shooting an elephant, you are a cnut, IMO.:)

Indeed I have no problem with inbreds like that being excuted. There's too many stupid humans in the world anyway.

MaxSteele · 09-01-2013 01:09AM

Pottler wrote: »

I can understand how they poach horses, but finding a wild AK must be hard, let alone hitting it. I presume they hunt them for their wood?
Any gimp who rocks up looking to pay 35k to shoot an elephant should be quietly brought out into the Veld, held at gunpoint until they transfer all their money to a charitable account set up especially for the purpose and then released, barefoot with a pork-chop stapled to their as5, in Lion territory. If your idea of "fun" is shooting an elephant, you are a cnut, IMO.:)

Good man yourself Pottler

woodoo · 09-01-2013 01:10AM

Its terribly sad that we are probably going to lose our most precious animals while humans multiply to parasitic levels. What does the future hold.. 50 billion people with barren seas and wildlife desecrated.

MadsL · 09-01-2013 01:11AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Every other elephant expert such as Ian Redmond disagrees. I dont care how much money it would raise. It's wrong to shoot an intelligent animal.

Do you eat meat?

steddyeddy · 09-01-2013 01:12AM

Watch a BBC horizon episode about human over population by David Attenborough. He details that we're the most over populated destructive species on earth. The idea that we need to be shooting intelligent animals like elephants is crazy.

Kenya suffers worst single loss of elephants as poachers kill 12

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