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Is there a roundabout standard needed?

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  • #32
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Do the current RSA guidelines not cover it?
    ah looks like they do

    I didn't get the memo that the "second exit" rule changed


    http://blog.aaireland.ie/index.php/2010/11/23/road-safety/42-of-drivers-have-had-%E2%80%98near-miss%E2%80%99-on-irish-roundabouts-3-have-had-a-collision
    45% of Irish motorists have been involved in a collision or near miss on a roundabout within the last 3 years, a survey by AA motor insurance can reveal.
    ...
    AA motor insurance learned that 8% admitted to being at fault. A further 72% blamed the driver of another car.
    ...
    If taking the 2nd exit only indicate left once you’ve past the 1st exit.
    If taking the third exit, indicate right until you are past the 2nd exit. Then indicate left to signal your intent to exit.


  • #33
    veryangryman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,742 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    ah looks like they do

    I didn't get the memo that the "second exit" rule changed


    http://blog.aaireland.ie/index.php/2010/11/23/road-safety/42-of-drivers-have-had-%E2%80%98near-miss%E2%80%99-on-irish-roundabouts-3-have-had-a-collision

    I still use the right indicator if going further than semi circle. It does no harm to anyone and if anything increases safety


  • #34
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    ah looks like they do

    I didn't get the memo that the "second exit" rule changed

    http://blog.aaireland.ie/index.php/2010/11/23/road-safety/42-of-drivers-have-had-%E2%80%98near-miss%E2%80%99-on-irish-roundabouts-3-have-had-a-collision




    There was no memo until the RSA produced that leaflet.

    If 45% of motorists have had a near miss or actual collision on a roundabout at least once in the last three years, does that not suggest that there is some inherent problem in the Irish situation, whether with design or use or both?

    Roundabouts are supposed to be safer, yet the Irish version somehow manages to be a dog's dinner. As a cyclist I have experienced far more than one unpleasant or annoying incident on a roundabout over the last three years, though no collisions or genuine close calls.

    That AA Ireland blog, dating from 2010, supports the case I put forward in this Motors thread a while back, the gist of which was that the RSA never issued a memo, and a significant proportion of the motoring sector, including professionals like the AA, blithely carried on with the old methods.


  • #35
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    If 45% of motorists have had a near miss or actual collision on a roundabout at least once in the last three years, does that not suggest that there is some inherent problem in the Irish situation, whether with design or use or both?

    No. It does not.

    As the AA release says: "3% of these were actual collisions whereas 42% admitted to having a close call"

    Three percent of actual collisions seems on the low side, but more importantly, what is been described as "near misses" is likely activity which is a normal function of a roundabout anywhere.


  • #36
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,053 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Common situation I see is two lanes entering roundabout at 6pm and one lane exit at 12.10 or 190 both right and left lanes think they have ROW at exit.

    Another one is single lane and bus lane up to the roundabout. Bus lane ends 15~20m before roundabout. If someone indicates to move into what was the bus lane, people in the right lane assume they are taking the first exit, then get a shock when the continue around to exit at the 12, again one lane exit. Also roundabout too small to move between lanes as you go around it.


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  • #37
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    monument wrote: »
    No. It does not.

    As the AA release says: "3% of these were actual collisions whereas 42% admitted to having a close call"

    Three percent of actual collisions seems on the low side, but more importantly, what is been described as "near misses" is likely activity which is a normal function of a roundabout anywhere.




    The general road safety literature concludes that roundabouts are safer than other junction types.

    It may well be the case that roundabouts result in a higher number of less serious collisions.

    Unfortunately I don't believe that Irish roundabouts are of a good design, certainly not as far as pedestrians and cyclists are concerned.

    In Galway, AGS reported that 25% of collisions occur on roundabouts.

    Various community group and independent bodies (eg Failte Ireland) have also identified Galway's roundabouts as a significant barrier, as did the research and consultation process for the Galway City Walking & Cycling Strategy.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056785919

    There's the theory of roundabouts, and there's Irish practice in relation to roundabouts...


  • #38
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,180 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Galways roundabouts are notorious though, so that stat is probably slightly skewed. The roundabouts on the 'ring road' are so busy you have to take risks to get out otherwise you'll be sitting there for hours.


  • #39
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Galway's roundabouts are crap, that's for sure, but are they designed according to a 'standard' different from anywhere else in the country?


  • #40
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Unfortunately I don't believe that Irish roundabouts are of a good design, certainly not as far as pedestrians and cyclists are concerned.

    Agreed, but that does not change the idea that what people class as near-misses is not just a normal function of roundabouts anywhere.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    In Galway, AGS reported that 25% of collisions occur on roundabouts...

    That's not at all suprising given how many roundabouts there are in Galway and, more so, how many there are on large and/or busy roads.

    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    There's the theory of roundabouts, and there's Irish practice in relation to roundabouts...

    Subjective safety, rather than actual safety is as important here, but I suspect even more important.


  • #41
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,180 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Galway's roundabouts are crap, that's for sure, but are they designed according to a 'standard' different from anywhere else in the country?

    No they're the standard design, but Galway does not have a DC bypass, so imagine taking about 1/2 to 2/3 of the traffic on the M50 and having it go around seven roundabouts. You'd have a rake of near misses.


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  • #42
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    monument wrote: »
    Agreed, but that does not change the idea that what people class as near-misses is not just a normal function of roundabouts anywhere.


    That's not at all suprising given how many roundabouts there are in Galway and, more so, how many there are on large and/or busy roads.


    Subjective safety, rather than actual safety is as important here, but I suspect even more important.

    Unfortunately a pattern of near misses does in fact appear to be a normal function of Irish roundabout design.

    I have a paper somewhere from back in the 90s that looked at the accident patterns recorded in the Garda CT90 CT68 accident records after the Galway traffic signals were switched to roundabouts. As I recall there was an upto ten-fold increase in "material damage only" crashes.

    Of course nowadays these don't get written up and are treated as a matter for the insurance companies (whose data should really be publicly available but isnt).

    A ten-fold increase in collisions implies a lot of near-misses as well.

    The claims of "safety" for Irish type roundabouts are based on a reduction in injury severity in serious collisions between cars not on an assumed reduction in collisions.

    Against this we have to offset an established and well-documented increase in injury risk for cyclists and motorcyclists.


  • #43
    patrickbrophy18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    Irish and Proud wrote: »
    An article >>here<< regarding the Killiney Towers Roundabout - scroll down to see a video of a Dutch Roundabout in action - Killiney Towers is pseudo-Dutch in my mind...

    ...and here's the design I said I hope to post:

    Attachment not found.

    That design is incredibly detailed and accurate and a much better proposal to the short-sighted rubbish which the council implemented.


  • #44
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Unfortunately a pattern of near misses does in fact appear to be a normal function of Irish roundabout design.

    I have a paper somewhere from back in the 90s that looked at the accident patterns recorded in the Garda CT90 CT68 accident records after the Galway traffic signals were switched to roundabouts. As I recall there was an upto ten-fold increase in "material damage only" crashes.

    I'd be sceptical of the utility of any report detailing increases in anything traffic related in Galway in the 90s because car use mushroomed in Galway in the 90s. Talks of ten fold increases in numbers of accidents are rather useless when there's no corresponding statistics on the numbers of vehicles using the roads in question, the changing profile of drivers etc.

    It's also worth pointing out that the roundabouts were mostly finished in the 80s. Apart from the Deane RAB, Briarhill was the of the last "major" junctions that was converted to the dread RAB, so if RABs are to blame then the logical timing of it would be in the 80s not 90s.


  • #45
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    antoobrien wrote: »
    I'd be sceptical of the utility of any report detailing increases in anything traffic related in Galway in the 90s because car use mushroomed in Galway in the 90s. Talks of ten fold increases in numbers of accidents are rather useless when there's no corresponding statistics on the numbers of vehicles using the roads in question, the changing profile of drivers etc.

    It's also worth pointing out that the roundabouts were mostly finished in the 80s. Apart from the Deane RAB, Briarhill was the of the last "major" junctions that was converted to the dread RAB, so if RABs are to blame then the logical timing of it would be in the 80s not 90s.

    The paper was from the 90's but the data in it was from the 1980s. Apologies if that was not sufficiently clear.


  • #46
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    The paper was from the 90's but the data in it was from the 1980s. Apologies if that was not sufficiently clear.

    It was never mentioned, so you'll excuse me if I find your correction to be "convenient"


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