Greed is going to destroy this country again

steddyeddy · 30-12-2012 05:49PM #1

I was sorry to see a local deli/coffee shop I go to had closed down. The owner was an Italian chap who was an Irish citizen and came here to open a business. Anyway at the end of his current lease his landlord demanded a crazy amount of rent and refused to negotiate away from the proposed rent increase. The same thing is happening all over Ireland (Dublin in particular but I apologise if the issue affects you and you are in another part of the country). Shops and businesses are closing left right and center in this country because of greed like this. It's part of what created the artificial pricing of property in this country.

It's not only commmercial businesses but families who are suffering from rent increases in a country facing a recession. There needs to be far more regulation of landlords in this country or the recession will keep going no matter what budget we bring in.

Sky King · 30-12-2012 05:50PM

That's not greed it's capitalism.

If he doesn't like capitalism tell him to take his business venture to North Korea.

LivelineDipso · 30-12-2012 05:51PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Anyway at the end of his current lease his landlord demanded a crazy amount of rent and refused to negotiate away from the proposed rent increase.

These kinds of Kamakazi Landlord stories are very common. Greedy scumbags who would rather destroy a regular rental income for the sake of getting a few bob more. Stupidity and Greed.

There are like a cancer on this country and our economy.

Einhard · 30-12-2012 05:52PM

That's a terrible situation for any business owner to be in, but I think people tend to forget that landlords have their own financial obligations, and many have enormous mortgages. If they can't make the payments on those mortgages, then they face losing their propery, and even bankruptcy. So it's not as straightforward as "greed".

J Bourke · 30-12-2012 05:52PM

Sky King wrote: »

That's not greed it's capitalism.

If he doesn't like capitalism tell him to take his business venture to North Korea.

Its not capitalism either, its stupidity. Rather than having some amount of rent, the landlord now has NO rent. :rolleyes:

donegal_road · 30-12-2012 05:53PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I was sorry to see a local deli/coffee shop I go to had closed down. The owner was an Italian chap who was an Irish citizen and came here to open a business. Anyway at the end of his current lease his landlord demanded a crazy amount of rent and refused to negotiate away from the proposed rent increase. The same thing is happening all over Ireland (Dublin in particular but I apologise if the issue affects you and you are in another part of the country). Shops and businesses are closing left right and center in this country because of greed like this. It's part of what created the artificial pricing of property in this country.

It's not only commmercial businesses but families who are suffering from rent increases in a country facing a recession. There needs to be far more regulation of landlords in this country or the recession will keep going no matter what budget we bring in.

and it is no different up here. I heard it said, *and Im not an accountant but someone here might verify this*, that if a landlord of a commercial premises cannot let out his space, he can write off the rent loss against his end-of -year tax. So the units are worth more to landlords empty than occupied. Therefore a crazy high rent is demanded so as to ensure no one will rent it.

steddyeddy · 30-12-2012 05:55PM

Sky King wrote: »

That's not greed it's capitalism.

If he doesn't like capitalism tell him to take his business venture to North Korea.

He was brining in a lot of business to the area and paying a lot of tax. The area will now lose that money and the country will lose his tax when he finally does move. The landlord is the only one benfitting from this greed.

GKidd · 30-12-2012 05:56PM

J Bourke wrote: »

Its not capitalism either, its stupidity. Rather than having some amount of rent, the landlord now has NO rent. :rolleyes:

That's really up to the landlord to decide if he wants to cut his losses and look for another tenant.

steddyeddy · 30-12-2012 05:57PM

Einhard wrote: »

That's a terrible situation for any business owner to be in, but I think people tend to forget that landlords have their own financial obligations, and many have enormous mortgages. If they can't make the payments on those mortgages, then they face losing their propery, and even bankruptcy. So it's not as straightforward as "greed".

Some rents are at celtic tiger prices becuase some leases forbid downward rent reviews and that is greed.

Sulla Felix · 30-12-2012 05:58PM

I think the problem is that a lot of the owners in these cases are pretty secure. They don't need the rent, so they'd rather leave the property empty than establish a new lower baseline.
For example, two seperate places I've rented in the last 4 years. Lease up in one, guy dropped my rent because he needed the rent for the mortgage and literally couldn't afford to have the property idle for even a month. Another, the property was idle for 9 months before it was rented. I moved around the corner. After six, I gave him a ring to see if he'd move and he really didn't care. Obviously not needing the money there.
Now these are domestic cases, but I'm sure the same can be said for at least some of the commercial sector.

mikemac1 · 30-12-2012 05:59PM

Italian chap could try to get a commercial mortgage and buy the place?

He seemed to be successful

cameramonkey · 30-12-2012 05:59PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I was sorry to see a local deli/coffee shop I go to had closed down. The owner was an Italian chap who was an Irish citizen and came here to open a business. Anyway at the end of his current lease his landlord demanded a crazy amount of rent and refused to negotiate away from the proposed rent increase. The same thing is happening all over Ireland (Dublin in particular but I apologise if the issue affects you and you are in another part of the country). Shops and businesses are closing left right and center in this country because of greed like this. It's part of what created the artificial pricing of property in this country.

It's not only commmercial businesses but families who are suffering from rent increases in a country facing a recession. There needs to be far more regulation of landlords in this country or the recession will keep going no matter what budget we bring in.

where is the business? Do you know how much the new and the old rent was?

Agricola · 30-12-2012 05:59PM

Isnt greed the very essence of capitalism?

VinLieger · 30-12-2012 06:00PM

Yeah its getting pretty ridiculous especially in dublin city centre where alot of businesses are in agreements dating back to the good days that only allow for "upward only rent reviews" and alot of the landlords dont seem to have any common sense and are sticking to their illogical guns.

There is a very important case between Bewleys and their landlord about this very issue going through the courts which will set precedent for all these situations and if it goes the way of the landlords ALOT of shops and businesses in the city centre will be shutting down

Merch · 30-12-2012 06:00PM

donegal_road wrote: »

and it is no different up here. I heard it said, *and Im not an accountant but someone here might verify this*, that if a landlord of a commercial premises cannot let out his space, he can write off the rent loss against his end-of -year tax. So the units are worth more to landlords empty than occupied. Therefore a crazy high rent is demanded so as to ensure no one will rent it.

A person doing this would have to be making a profit somewhere to allow them to write off the tax elsewhere and as Im not an accountant either, I believe it would have to be in the same category,
I dont see the benefit of not taking an income in to create a loss, so as to write off a tax from a profit somewhere else.
It would seem more practical to take in an income and pay the tax out of it, if a loss was being made, something would still be earned/payed and also written off?

steddyeddy · 30-12-2012 06:02PM

GKidd wrote: »

That's really up to the landlord to decide if he wants to cut his losses and look for another tenant.

An empty premise next to you is bad for everyones businesses. As I say if we are in a situation were the landlord is the only one making money in an economy then we as a country are in trouble.

J Bourke · 30-12-2012 06:02PM

GKidd wrote: »

That's really up to the landlord to decide if he wants to cut his losses and look for another tenant.

I think it would be more in the LL's interest to have a tenant paying 20k for 5 years rather than trying to get 35k in year one and tipping the tenant towards breaking point, like in this case.

donegal_road · 30-12-2012 06:03PM

Merch wrote: »

A person doing this would have to be making a profit somewhere to allow them to write off the tax elsewhere and as Im not an accountant either, I believe it would have to be in the same category,
I dont see the benefit of not taking an income in to create a loss, so as to write off a tax from a profit somewhere else.
It would seem more practical to take in an income and pay the tax out of it, if a loss was being made, something would still be earned/payed and also written off?

it used to be a tax loop-hole where hotels were able to write off loss of income through vacant rooms throughout the year, against their year's takings

Einhard · 30-12-2012 06:11PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Some rents are at celtic tiger prices becuase some leases forbid downward rent reviews and that is greed.

And many of those rents are at Celtic Tiger prices with upward only clauses because the landlords are paying Celtic Tiger mortgages. Things aren't always as simple and black and white as they appear.

GKidd · 30-12-2012 06:14PM

J Bourke wrote: »

I think it would be more in the LL's interest to have a tenant paying 20k for 5 years rather than trying to get 35k in year one and tipping the tenant towards breaking point, like in this case.

We really don't know the full story. You guys really don't get the point though. A landlord wouldn't cut his nose off to spite his face. Perhaps he has plans for hte building or didn't like the existing tenant.

steddyeddy · 30-12-2012 06:15PM

Agricola wrote: »

Isnt greed the very essence of capitalism?

Well I'm a capitalist and I wont hide that. I believe in capitalisim because it provides a means of social mobility but if it's not regulated one person ends up preventing others from making money. a regulated market is very important in capitalisim.

Einhard · 30-12-2012 06:17PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well I'm a capitalist and I wont hide that. I believe in capitalisim because it provides a means of social mobility but if it's not regulated one person ends up preventing others from making money. a regulated market is very important in capitalisim.

If the government tells you what you can and cannot charge someone for your services, then it's not capitalism.

steddyeddy · 30-12-2012 06:20PM

GKidd wrote: »

We really don't know the full story. You guys really don't get the point though. A landlord wouldn't cut his nose off to spite his face. Perhaps he has plans for hte building or didn't like the existing tenant.

Well all over Dublin rents have forced out dublin business owners which has been a further blow to the economy. Do you not think that Dublin retail owners have a problem with high rents.

GRMA · 30-12-2012 06:22PM

Landlords is being an exploitative arsehole shocker... it's the same the world over

steddyeddy · 30-12-2012 06:26PM

GRMA wrote: »

Landlords is being an exploitative arsehole shocker... it's the same the world over

Upward only rent reviews are not always legal the world over.

GRMA · 30-12-2012 06:31PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Upward only rent reviews are not always legal the world over.

Landlords have forever exploited tenants, it can't be pinned solely on upwards only rent reviews.

As Irish people we should know all about landlords

steddyeddy · 30-12-2012 06:31PM

Einhard wrote: »

And many of those rents are at Celtic Tiger prices with upward only clauses because the landlords are paying Celtic Tiger mortgages. Things aren't always as simple and black and white as they appear.

No but the borrow a phrase from Spock (I apologise) the needs of the many out weight the needs of the few. If he forces out businesses people lose their jobs and the economy suffers when people cant spend their money there. The economy cant suffer because a landlord needs to pay a excessive mortgage.

GRMA · 30-12-2012 06:32PM

Einhard wrote: »

That's a terrible situation for any business owner to be in, but I think people tend to forget that landlords have their own financial obligations, and many have enormous mortgages. If they can't make the payments on those mortgages, then they face losing their propery, and even bankruptcy. So it's not as straightforward as "greed".

So its ok for landlords to jack up rents if they are stuck for a few bob, to bleed their tenants dry?

Of course it's greed. It's exploitation.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 30-12-2012 06:34PM

the landlords own the property, why shouldnt they be allowed set the prices

Im thinking of selling my old xbox. I might put it up on adverts for five thousand euro. why not.

Bullseye1 · 30-12-2012 06:35PM

The current government promised they would tackle upward only leases before coming into government and like the rats they are have now stated there is nothing they can do.

Hopefully the Landlord is unable to get anyone else in and the guy with the coffee shop can find a more reasonable landlord.

dj jarvis · 30-12-2012 06:36PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Upward only rent reviews are not always legal the world over.

i think what he might mean is that a contract is a contract the world over
if it is in the contract then you are screwed - simple
as for changing it , it was tried , it would be un constitutional to amend the law as it would endanger property rights and land law

and as we know in this country changing laws willy nilly can have un foreseen repercussions , so they have decided best not to go messing with it

new contracts can be argued but legacy ones cant - such is life
,one question , if so much prop is empty , could the coffee shop owner just not get a new premises near the old one on a new contract , would make sense if he had a good trade in the area

there is a lot more to this story that what you are told i think

Greed is going to destroy this country again

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