Is Atheism a closed minded standpoint ?

Mardy Bum · 26-12-2012 5:48pm

martingriff wrote: »

Well I don't know how to prove it that fairies or dragon exists or don't. That is my point as I have no proof either way either could be true. Just because I can't prove there existence does not mean they do not or have never existed

So you believe fairies and dragons existed?

Replace fairies and dragons with god and you will see the point being made.

King Mob · 26-12-2012 11:45pm

martingriff wrote: »

Well I don't know how to prove it that fairies or dragon exists or don't. That is my point as I have no proof either way either could be true. Just because I can't prove there existence does not mean they do not or have never existed

So then do you believe positively that fairies or dragons or any other fictional entity I can dream up exist? Yes or no?

joseph brand · 27-12-2012 4:54am

EnterNow wrote: »

Two 'believers' knocked at my front door this morning, at 11:45am. I opened the door, & seeing their campaign to 'save' me about to begin I stopped them short...I told them its Xmas morning & I've things to be doing so I won't waste their time.

Maybe they had an external HD? Ba-dum-TISH.

Tough crowd.

But seriously, isn't it ironic (maybe irony isn't the correct term) that a cult wants to 'save' someone? I mean, David Koresh and Jim Jones were in the business of 'saving' people. They did the exact opposite. People need to be freed from religion/ cults, not freed into religion/ cults.

Why can't people learn from history? That's what it's there for!! We learn from our mistakes, we don't pursue them.

But, to be honest, I had such a bad hangover today, I thought I was going to die. Really bad. Long story short, I have a beer in front of me. Happy xmas.

joseph brand · 27-12-2012 5:01am

King Mob wrote: »

Martin, please suggest an entity you do not believe exists, such as fairies or dragons etc, then prove they do not exist.
Show us how we might be able to prove the non-existence of god.

Could we rename this forum to Russell's Teapot. So that we may save ourselves the monotony of explaining why the onus of proof lies with the theist.

It really seems like theists just stumble in here, ill-informed. Gawwwd.

martingriff · 27-12-2012 8:40am

King Mob wrote: »

So then do you believe positively that fairies or dragons or any other fictional entity I can dream up exist? Yes or no?

Do I believe in God? Yes

Myrddin · 27-12-2012 9:26am

martingriff wrote: »

Do I believe in God? Yes

Which God, because there's quite a few that are worshipped around the globe?

Ps - did you knock at my door on Xmas morning?

TwoShedsJackson · 27-12-2012 10:17am

martingriff wrote: »

Do I believe in God? Yes

Why do you believe?

ShooterSF · 27-12-2012 11:30am

martingriff wrote: »

No what I meant there is I would not go an tell the person there beliefs are wrong and crazy its there beliefs. I will think they are but i will not call them idiots.

Why would you call someone an idiot for having crazy beliefs? You might try and persuade the person their beliefs are crazy in the hope of helping them but as far as I can see there are plenty of not idiots out there with crazy beliefs.

And what happens when people start to impose their crazy beliefs on others in society, say making children learn those beliefs to be true or forcing women to cover their whole body in public or forcing black people to work for nothing and have no civil liberties or killing people because of their sexuality?

Of course the 3rd one there stands out because it's not technically based on a religious belief, but that's the point, no one said "Oh well that's just slave owner's beliefs. You shouldn't go around thelling them they can't own slaves."

King Mob · 27-12-2012 4:12pm

martingriff wrote: »

Do I believe in God? Yes

That's not the question I asked you. I asked whether you also believe in things that are clearly fictional simply because you cannot disprove their existence?

Or would you agree that it is reasonable to not believe in a fantastical entity for which their is no evidence until such evidence is presented?
And do you thing there could be any evidence or reasoning that could possibly convince you that your belief in god is unfounded?

mark renton · 27-12-2012 5:13pm

King Mob wrote: »

So then do you believe positively that fairies or dragons or any other fictional entity I can dream up exist? Yes or no?

Youre taking credit as a seminal source for faries and dragons?

martingriff · 27-12-2012 11:21pm

EnterNow wrote: »

Which God, because there's quite a few that are worshipped around the globe?

Ps - did you knock at my door on Xmas morning?

I am a Christian and no it was not me

martingriff · 27-12-2012 11:27pm

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Why do you believe?

Why well I believe we all here for some purpose in our life but with free will we may never reach it. I believe that the good will be rewarded and the bad will be punished. I don't know if I can but why I believe in to words I just do.

martingriff · 27-12-2012 11:36pm

ShooterSF wrote: »

Why would you call someone an idiot for having crazy beliefs? You might try and persuade the person their beliefs are crazy in the hope of helping them but as far as I can see there are plenty of not idiots out there with crazy beliefs.

And what happens when people start to impose their crazy beliefs on others in society, say making children learn those beliefs to be true or forcing women to cover their whole body in public or forcing black people to work for nothing and have no civil liberties or killing people because of their sexuality?

Of course the 3rd one there stands out because it's not technically based on a religious belief, but that's the point, no one said "Oh well that's just slave owner's beliefs. You shouldn't go around thelling them they can't own slaves."

That is clearly wrong crazy beliefs or not. If someone follows a religion and it says to cover there body I do not accept that however that is there religion and that is what they do. As long as they don't try to make me change my religion then I say fine. In relation to killing people because of there sexuality that is very wrong. you say it in but I would say that is more extremists which you get in all beliefs (religions or atheist). By the way this thread is about religon's ans atheists so I am not talking about laws of a country.

martingriff · 27-12-2012 11:39pm

King Mob wrote: »

That's not the question I asked you. I asked whether you also believe in things that are clearly fictional simply because you cannot disprove their existence?

Or would you agree that it is reasonable to not believe in a fantastical entity for which their is no evidence until such evidence is presented?
And do you thing there could be any evidence or reasoning that could possibly convince you that your belief in god is unfounded?

Sorry you did mention god in your text. But in fairies then yes. I believe in angels I believe that my grandmothers, grandfathers and any of my friends who have died are looking down on me and hopefully looking out for me.

mark renton · 27-12-2012 11:44pm

martingriff wrote: »

Sorry you did mention god in your text. But in fairies then yes. I believe in angels I believe that my grandmothers, grandfathers and any of my friends who have died are looking down on me and hopefully looking out for me.

Good man martin - dont let them grind ye down

King Mob · 27-12-2012 11:57pm

martingriff wrote: »

Sorry you did mention god in your text. But in fairies then yes. I believe in angels I believe that my grandmothers, grandfathers and any of my friends who have died are looking down on me and hopefully looking out for me.

Ok, generally people don't believe in fairies, but I asked you originally to give an example of a being that you believe does not exist.
My bad for assuming you didn't believe in fairies.

So please tell us what fictional or imaginary entities do you not believe in and then explain how you can lack a belief in something without being able to disprove it exists.

And again, is there any evidence or reasoning that could possibly ever convince you that your belief was wrong or unfounded, yes or no?

mark renton · 28-12-2012 12:02am

King Mob wrote: »

Ok, generally people don't believe in fairies, but I asked you originally to give an example of a being that you believe does not exist.
My bad for assuming you didn't believe in fairies.

So please tell us what fictional or imaginary entities do you not believe in and then explain how you can lack a belief in something without being able to disprove it exists.

And again, is there any evidence or reasoning that could possibly ever convince you that your belief was wrong or unfounded, yes or no?

Do you believe that perception is reality?

Mardy Bum · 28-12-2012 12:09am

martingriff wrote: »

Sorry you did mention god in your text. But in fairies then yes. I believe in angels I believe that my grandmothers, grandfathers and any of my friends who have died are looking down on me and hopefully looking out for me.

What about dragons and the Loch Ness monstor?

King Mob · 28-12-2012 12:09am

john47832 wrote: »

Do you believe that perception is reality?

No.
Your question makes little sense and has nothing to do with the points I am making.

mark renton · 28-12-2012 12:12am

King Mob wrote: »

No.
Your question makes little sense and has nothing to do with the points I am making.

Its a valid question... So you believe we all experience the same reality?

King Mob · 28-12-2012 12:13am

john47832 wrote: »

Its a valid question...

No it's a random nonsense question that has nothing to do with my points or the topic. As is your other one.

john47832 wrote: »

So you believe we all experience the same reality?

Yes. You are welcome to show otherwise.

Mardy Bum · 28-12-2012 12:14am

john47832 wrote: »

Its a valid question... So you believe we all experience the same reality?

What may seem to be reality for someone may be a mental illness so no perception is not reality.

The question makes no sense in the current argument anyway.

mark renton · 28-12-2012 12:32am

King Mob wrote: »

No it's a random nonsense question that has nothing to do with my points or the topic. As is your other one.

Your having difficulty with the question is hardly grounds for accusations of nonsense - maybe you just dont understand?

King Mob wrote: »

Yes. You are welcome to show otherwise.

Ask yourself - is what martingriff perceives, his reality?

mark renton · 28-12-2012 12:35am

Mardy Bum wrote: »

What may seem to be reality for someone may be a mental illness so no perception is not reality.

The question makes no sense in the current argument anyway.

This subject that has the mentall illness - is this their reality?

The question is within context given that Mob is challenging someones perception - is this really that difficult to understand, or would you class yourself as a sheep?

King Mob · 28-12-2012 12:42am

john47832 wrote: »

Your having difficulty with the question is hardly grounds for accusations of nonsense - maybe you just dont understand?

I answered both of them clearly and concisely. What I don't understand is what your point is meant to be and what it has to do with my points or the topic.
Maybe try explaining it.

john47832 wrote: »

Ask yourself - is what martingriff perceives, his reality?

No.
He can believe all he likes that he falls at an acceleration of 13m/s^2 and declare it until he turns blue. But reality says and can show that this is not the case.
His belief has no effect on reality.
Wishing something exists does not make it any more real than fairies or bigfoot or the jabberwocky.

My question is to point out his contradictory beliefs. Unless he believes in all fictional entities, then there must be some he doesn't believe in some. And since he cannot explain how you can disprove one of these things exists, then he believes the atheist position is reasonable.
And there's nothing to distinguish god from these fictional creatures.

dd972 · 28-12-2012 1:32am

Sorry lads, I asked for an Agnostic forum but they wouldn't give it to us !

At least you get the nothingness, we're destined for purgatory

TwoShedsJackson · 28-12-2012 7:25am

martingriff wrote: »

Why well I believe we all here for some purpose in our life but with free will we may never reach it. I believe that the good will be rewarded and the bad will be punished. I don't know if I can but why I believe in to words I just do.

Can you see how your belief has no bearing on reality?

MrPudding · 28-12-2012 8:59am

dd972 wrote: »

Sorry lads, I asked for an Agnostic forum but they wouldn't give it to us !

Good. That would have been kind of pointless.

MrP

martingriff · 28-12-2012 10:16am

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Can you see how your belief has no bearing on reality?

Why?

martingriff · 28-12-2012 10:21am

Mardy Bum wrote: »

What about dragons and the Loch Ness monstor?

So because I believe in a god or an angel I have to believe in everything?

I answered that question already in this thread I have certain beliefs. There is a lot of things I don't believe in. Dragons yes been 1 and also the lock ness monster.

martingriff · 28-12-2012 10:26am

King Mob wrote: »

Ok, generally people don't believe in fairies, but I asked you originally to give an example of a being that you believe does not exist.
My bad for assuming you didn't believe in fairies.

So please tell us what fictional or imaginary entities do you not believe in and then explain how you can lack a belief in something without being able to disprove it exists.

And again, is there any evidence or reasoning that could possibly ever convince you that your belief was wrong or unfounded, yes or no?

I have answered this question before there are certain things i don't believe does that mean they don't exist no. It is a belief of mine not a fact.

In relation to evidence I am quiet willing to listen to any and all evidence and claims are make a decision. I regularly listen to debates on gods or read person like from dawkins.

Doctor DooM · 28-12-2012 10:48am

martingriff wrote: »

I have answered this question before there are certain things i don't believe does that mean they don't exist no. It is a belief of mine not a fact.

In relation to evidence I am quiet willing to listen to any and all evidence and claims are make a decision. I regularly listen to debates on gods or read person like from dawkins.

Well there you go, atheists just fail to see any evidence for a god, the way you fail to see evidence for other things, and remain to be convinced, just like you.

mewso · 28-12-2012 10:57am

martingriff wrote: »

So because I believe in a god or an angel I have to believe in everything?

I answered that question already in this thread I have certain beliefs. There is a lot of things I don't believe in. Dragons yes been 1 and also the lock ness monster.

Martin. You were the one who stated that it is not possible to disprove god, a soul and so on. By that reasoning you can't discount anything. Magic teapots, loch ness monster, dragons, gods you probably don't believe in etc. etc. I simply consider it highly unlikely that any of these things exist and there is no onus on me to prove this. If you wish to believe in a god. No problem but you have to see that saying I can't disprove something is not a valid argument against the position I or others take.

If I declare that I see no solid evidence that the Loch Ness Monster exists. You would probably agree with me.

If I declare that I see no solid evidence that a god exists. You will disagree to the point that you have already saying I can't disprove his existence.

So should I equally have to disprove the existence of Nessie to take my Atheistic position about her?

martingriff · 28-12-2012 11:53am

mewso wrote: »

Martin. You were the one who stated that it is not possible to disprove god, a soul and so on. By that reasoning you can't discount anything. Magic teapots, loch ness monster, dragons, gods you probably don't believe in etc. etc. I simply consider it highly unlikely that any of these things exist and there is no onus on me to prove this. If you wish to believe in a god. No problem but you have to see that saying I can't disprove something is not a valid argument against the position I or others take.

If I declare that I see no solid evidence that the Loch Ness Monster exists. You would probably agree with me.

If I declare that I see no solid evidence that a god exists. You will disagree to the point that you have already saying I can't disprove his existence.

So should I equally have to disprove the existence of Nessie to take my Atheistic position about her?

I agree there is no solid evidence for god its a belief I have you can take it or leave it in the same way its a belief to some that the Loch Ness Monster exists my point is I may not believe it it but I can't say to one who does that is diffently does not. I stress again I cant discout anything it does not mean I believe in it. I can be wrong you know me being human and all that

TwoShedsJackson · 28-12-2012 1:35pm

martingriff wrote: »

Why?

Why would it? Just because you believe in something, take comfort in that belief, or wish that your belief were true, does not make it true in any way, shape, or form.

There is a much proof for the existence of dragons as there is for God, God doesn't get given a pass because we'd like it if he did exist. A belief in God whilst simultaneously disbelieving in dragons because there's no proof they exist is illogical.

King Mob · 28-12-2012 4:32pm

martingriff wrote: »

I have answered this question before there are certain things i don't believe does that mean they don't exist no. It is a belief of mine not a fact.

But you have not answered why you don't believe in these other creatures despite not being able to disprove their existence.
Why is it that it's reasonable for you not to believe in the Loch Ness monster etc, but it is not reasonable for us to hold the same position for god?

There is no difference in evidence between God and Nessie

martingriff wrote: »

In relation to evidence I am quiet willing to listen to any and all evidence and claims are make a decision. I regularly listen to debates on gods or read person like from dawkins.

So what evidence or reasoning would convince you?

Zombrex · 28-12-2012 4:51pm

martingriff wrote: »

No what I meant there is I would not go an tell the person there beliefs are wrong and crazy its there beliefs. I will think they are but i will not call them idiots.

What if they call you immoral and depraved because of your beliefs?

Zombrex · 28-12-2012 4:55pm

martingriff wrote: »

I agree there is no solid evidence for god its a belief I have you can take it or leave it in the same way its a belief to some that the Loch Ness Monster exists my point is I may not believe it it but I can't say to one who does that is diffently does not. I stress again I cant discout anything it does not mean I believe in it. I can be wrong you know me being human and all that

Pity Jesus didn't think the same way as you ...

People seem to forget that Christianity, and most other religions, actively assert the truth of their religions. They don't just go "Well, believe what you want to, I'm not going to bore you with my beliefs".

They tend to go "This is right, you are wrong" and normally there is a "and you're all going to burn in hell" in there somewhere as well.

mark renton · 28-12-2012 5:07pm

King Mob wrote: »

But you have not answered why you don't believe in these other creatures despite not being able to disprove their existence.
Why is it that it's reasonable for you not to believe in the Loch Ness monster etc, but it is not reasonable for us to hold the same position for god?

There is no difference in evidence between God and Nessie

So what evidence or reasoning would convince you?

Is your great uncle or aunt still alive Mob? And if not, how do we know they existed?

SebBerkovich · 28-12-2012 5:15pm

john47832 wrote: »

Is your great uncle or aunt still alive Mob? And if not, how do we know they existed?

I know where this is going... and no, sadly the bible sadly isn't evidence enough to prove the existence of anything... bla bla.. multiple sources... bla bla... extraordinary claims -> extraordinary evidence...

whats else have you got though?

King Mob · 28-12-2012 5:17pm

john47832 wrote: »

Is your great uncle or aunt still alive Mob? And if not, how do we know they existed?

First, there's a difference between the claim that a magical, fantastical creature exists and that a person has a great aunt or uncle.
One is an extraordinary claim, the under is very mundane, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Second, birth records and family trees, photos, diaries, DNA tests.

Again a weird random question that doesn't have any baring on any of the points I made.

mark renton · 28-12-2012 5:24pm

SebBerkovich wrote: »

I know where this is going... and no, sadly the bible sadly isn't evidence enough to prove the existence of anything... bla bla.. multiple sources... bla bla... extraordinary claims -> extraordinary evidence...

whats else have you got though?

Unfortunately for you seb I am in no way religous. Mobs basis for his theory is that if he doesnt have evidence then it does not exist - a little naive of him dont you think

King Mob · 28-12-2012 5:26pm

john47832 wrote: »

Unfortunately for you seb I am in no way religous. Mobs basis for his theory is that if he doesnt have evidence then it does not exist - a little naive of him dont you think

As opposed to believing in stuff without evidence....?

SebBerkovich · 28-12-2012 5:27pm

john47832 wrote: »

Unfortunately for you seb I am in no way religous. Mobs basis for his theory is that if he doesnt have evidence then it does not exist - a little naive of him dont you think

Well i think Mobs answered better than i did, i was being a bit to flippant. His point still stands as it was made obvious about the standard of evidence required. which i think makes sense

mark renton · 28-12-2012 5:41pm

King Mob wrote: »

As opposed to believing in stuff without evidence....?

You seem to get confused rather easily mob. Im assuming such queries to your understanding either derives a knee jerk reaction or genuinely stretches your grey matter.

Given your logic, there is nothing in this world that you believe which exists outside of first person experience.

I really dont believe you are that ignorant mob, so you must see the flaw?

King Mob · 28-12-2012 5:50pm

john47832 wrote: »

Given your logic, there is nothing in this world that you believe which exists outside of first person experience.

I have specifically said this is not what I believe.
You are not reading my posts, probably deliberately.

martingriff · 28-12-2012 9:23pm

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Why would it? Just because you believe in something, take comfort in that belief, or wish that your belief were true, does not make it true in any way, shape, or form.

There is a much proof for the existence of dragons as there is for God, God doesn't get given a pass because we'd like it if he did exist. A belief in God whilst simultaneously disbelieving in dragons because there's no proof they exist is illogical.

Where did I say God should be given a pass. Of course just because I have my beliefs make them true but does it make them false. If so why.

swampgas · 28-12-2012 10:00pm

john47832 wrote: »

Unfortunately for you seb I am in no way religous. Mobs basis for his theory is that if he doesnt have evidence then it does not exist - a little naive of him dont you think

This is a common misunderstanding. If there is no evidence of X, then we have no basis for saying that X exists. It might exist, but maybe the evidence hasn't been found yet. We can't say that it definitely doesn't exist, but until evidence is found for it, we might as well assume it doesn't exist, and change our approach if and when suitable evidence is forthcoming.

This is rather different to someone saying that something might exist despite lack of evidence, and thus (making a stupendous leap of wishful thinking) therefore God and therefore whatever version of religion/spirituality/superstition they claim to "believe" is somehow not a load of nonsense.

swampgas · 28-12-2012 10:03pm

martingriff wrote: »

Of course just because I have my beliefs make them true but does it make them false. If so why.

You have beliefs but cannot explain why they are true. In other words, faith. Which is just pretending something is true, either because you were indoctrinated with it, or because it makes you feel happier.

How much does it matter to you whether your beliefs are actually true?

dd972 · 28-12-2012 10:49pm

MrPudding wrote: »

Good. That would have been kind of pointless.

MrP

another atheist ''who was there'' at the omega <facepalm>

Is Atheism a closed minded standpoint ?

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