Should weaker hurling counties merge?

Syferus · 05-10-2012 02:15AM

redzerologhlen wrote: »

It a good point that the work has to be put in a club and underage level first to get hurling to take off. I played a lot of football up to under 21's, my main interest from a young age was always hurling but the nearest club was 15 miles away (which we hated from football). We had an underage team up to u14 but couldnt make up the numbers for training or matches for a finish so it ended. Hurling is a lot harder to pick up than football which is why I think it is hard to get young lads to stick at it especially in the county's with little success at it.

We had a teacher in school, He was our football manager and a cork man originally and he told us one time you will only have hurling where you have good land and he was spot on the more I think about it. Only about 1/3 of Clare or less is play hurling as the primary sport. Its football all the way for the rest even though the trophy cabinet doesnt reflect it. There is a huge amount of work to be done at club underage level across about 70% of the country to get young lads to start and learn the basic skills and I dont think there are enough experienced people in the required locations to do it. It's a pity really because in my opinion its a more enjoyable sport to watch and play than football even though everyone has a different view on this.

Definitely depends on weather you're watching tv or attending games. There's pretty much zero argument that football is, overall, a better sport to follow at a ground, the pace of the game and the size of the ball are almost perfect for the focal length (so to speak) and reaction speed of human eyes. It's quite easy to lose track of a puck in hurling and sight-lines are necessarily poorer with a far smaller ball. That doesn't mean it's a bad experience, simply you need to more focused on the play than you would have to be in other sports.

On tv none of that is an issue, but I never buy into the 'hurling is a better/more enjoyable game' hype that tends to come up when both codes are compared. I try to avoid doing the same for football when this discussion crops up.

Each have their strengths and faults but both are two of the most exciting, skilful and culturally reflective sports in existence - isn't that good enough for everyone?

redzerologhlen · 05-10-2012 02:31AM

Syferus wrote: »

Definitely depends on weather you're watching tv or attending games. There's pretty much zero argument that football is, overall, a better sport to follow at a ground, the pace of the game and the size of the ball are almost perfect for the focal length (so to speak) and reaction speed of human eyes. It's quite easy to lose track of a puck in hurling and sight-lines are necessarily poorer with a far smaller ball. That doesn't mean it's a bad experience, simply you need to more focused on the play than you would have to be in other sports.

On tv none of that is an issue, but I never buy into the 'hurling is a better/more enjoyable game' hype that tends to come up when both codes are compared. I try to avoid doing the same for football when this discussion crops up.

Each have their strengths and faults but both are two of the most exciting, skilful and culturally reflective sports in existence - isn't that good enough for everyone?

I said in my opinion for a reason

I'm wont say its a better game but its the one I would prefer personally even though I come from an all football corner of our county. It would be nice if hurling was played as widely football but its hard to see it ever happening.

cormac halpin · 05-10-2012 08:54AM

Kenny Strong Television wrote: »

a team of Roscommon + Mayo + sligo + leitrim + london + New York,

Jesus I'd say the commute to training would be fair sh|te.

buck65 · 05-10-2012 09:45AM

Syferus wrote: »

Definitely depends on weather you're watching tv or attending games. There's pretty much zero argument that football is, overall, a better sport to follow at a ground, the pace of the game and the size of the ball are almost perfect for the focal length (so to speak) and reaction speed of human eyes. It's quite easy to lose track of a puck in hurling and sight-lines are necessarily poorer with a far smaller ball. That doesn't mean it's a bad experience, simply you need to more focused on the play than you would have to be in other sports.

On tv none of that is an issue, but I never buy into the 'hurling is a better/more enjoyable game' hype that tends to come up when both codes are compared. I try to avoid doing the same for football when this discussion crops up.

Each have their strengths and faults but both are two of the most exciting, skilful and culturally reflective sports in existence - isn't that good enough for everyone?

Are you confusing hurling with hockey?

Hurling is by far the better game, I've been to hundreds of hurling games and football games.
Football played well i.e intercounty level is decent but so much of the club scene is brutal.

Syferus · 05-10-2012 03:27PM

buck65 wrote: »

Syferus wrote: »

Definitely depends on weather you're watching tv or attending games. There's pretty much zero argument that football is, overall, a better sport to follow at a ground, the pace of the game and the size of the ball are almost perfect for the focal length (so to speak) and reaction speed of human eyes. It's quite easy to lose track of a puck in hurling and sight-lines are necessarily poorer with a far smaller ball. That doesn't mean it's a bad experience, simply you need to more focused on the play than you would have to be in other sports.

On tv none of that is an issue, but I never buy into the 'hurling is a better/more enjoyable game' hype that tends to come up when both codes are compared. I try to avoid doing the same for football when this discussion crops up.

Each have their strengths and faults but both are two of the most exciting, skilful and culturally reflective sports in existence - isn't that good enough for everyone?

Are you confusing hurling with hockey?

Hurling is by far the better game, I've been to hundreds of hurling games and football games.
Football played well i.e intercounty level is decent but so much of the club scene is brutal.

You'd have to have been living under a Germany-sized boulder if this is the first time you've heard a slitor called a puck.
Outside that the rest of your post is the usual 'we're better, yes, yes, us' blather I was talking about. Unfortunate timing.

buck65 · 05-10-2012 04:27PM

Honestly this is the first time I've heard a sliotar called a puck. I've heard of pucking the sliotar though.

Squidgy Black · 07-10-2012 01:17AM

LeoB wrote: »

Fingal have a hurling team which is basically from Dyblin Airport out. This has been good for hurling but still club football managers dont allow dual players tog out or at least ask them not to. They won their Minor All-Ireland championship and this will give the game a boost especially in the North Dublin region which is traditionally a football area.

Wouldn't go saying North Dublin's a football area at all, clubs like Craobh Chiarain, St.Vincents, O'Tooles, a lot of top tier Dublin hurling clubs that have a strong tradition of hurling squads.

I do think the Fingal minor squad idea was great though. That's the way development squads used to be a few years back when I was on them, Dublin North, Dublin West and Dublin South. I think it'd be a great competition between the areas, and it could be extended to other counties, a bit like the Colleges competition. It'd also give lads who couldn't make the County minor squad a chance. Particularly in places like Dublin where there's only 30 places on a squad for a good few hundred or so young lads playing Minor hurling.

Flukey · 08-10-2012 10:45PM

It's a crazy idea, and that is the most positive thing you could say about it. The counties should work within their own boundaries. A few county boards need a good kick in the ass, or wallop with a hurley. Any "weaker county" has the potential to step up to the mark, and some have done it. Offaly only won their first Leinster title in 1980 and won the All-Ireland the following year. When you look at what Donegal did in football in the past couple of years, lots of counties could do that in Hurling if the effort was put in. Lots of counties are doing positive things in the two codes and progress is being made. Others are just not bothering.

Stupid ideas like merging counties and splitting counties are just avoiding the real problems. Moving Galway and Antrim was crazy and has proved to be a complete disaster. In their absence, nothing was done to help Ulster and Connacht counties. The draws for the Ulster Hurling championship was missing last Thursday night, although one exists. No Connacht Hurling championship was put in place with the other four counties, which would have seemed to be a natural and obvious thing to do. The GAA didn't do it, the Connacht council didn't call for it and the county boards of the four other counties didn't call for it. If anyone in any of those bodies were doing their job, they would have done so. It should even have been a pre-condition for moving Galway to Leinster. But no, they just moved Galway and did nothing to help the other counties, not even give them their own championship like the rest of Ulster has.

Leave the counties as and where they are, and start tackling the real problems. Galway are not a problem in Hurling, yet they were deemed as being a problem to solve. It is the four Connacht counties with very little chance of winning the All-Ireland that were the problem, but they have been ignored. Creating "new counties" is ignoring the problem. If you want to solve Leitrim's Hurling problem, then it has to be done in Leitrim and so on. Redrawing boundaries will do nothing to help the skills of individuals. It is down to the practical things like good coaching and a county board that does its job.

Syferus · 09-10-2012 02:04AM

Without top-level options hurling is never going to grow beyond a niche/localised sport in football-first counties, nevermind counties whose populations dictates only one of the two could ever possibly be played and supported at anything approaching All-Ireland standard.

It's all well and good stating the plainly obvious that grass-roots - the sport can chew gum and walk at the same time - need to be improved but those same kids and club players will never reach their potentials if playing in the Nicky Rackard Cup is the greatest goal they can ever aspire to.

premierstone · 09-10-2012 01:28PM

Syferus wrote: »

Without top-level options hurling is never going to grow beyond a niche/localised sport in football-first counties, nevermind counties whose populations dictates only one of the two could ever possibly be played and supported at anything approaching All-Ireland standard.

It's all well and good stating the plainly obvious that grass-roots - the sport can chew gum and walk at the same time - need to be improved but those same kids and club players will never reach their potentials if playing in the Nicky Rackard Cup is the greatest goal they can ever aspire to.

Population is a weak excuse IMO, Offaly proved that in the 80's and 90's winning AI's in both codes with one of the smallest populations in the country.

Prioritising of resoursces and fair play from the county board is the key - a perfect example of how it shouldn't work is the recent happenings in Cavan. Unfortunatly the current economic downturn has meant most County Boards are fcuked financially so the second sport (Hurling in the majority of Counties) will be the obvious sacrificial lamb.

buck65 · 18-10-2012 01:56PM

Flukey
I don't think I mentioned re-drawing county boundaries to be fair. Your post is all well and good but it is not relevant, what you lay out would take at least 15 years to get these counties up to standard (i.e competitive in Div 1).
Merging counties is a stop gap idea to help struggling counties pool their resources and talents in the short term. It works at club level - why not at intercounty level?

aidan24326 · 18-10-2012 03:09PM

buck65 wrote: »

Merging counties is a stop gap idea to help struggling counties pool their resources and talents in the short term. It works at club level - why not at intercounty level?

Beacuse the resulting combined team would in most if not all cases be little better than the individual teams it had replaced. Merge the 4 Connaught counties and they still wouldn't get within 20 points of Galway. Adding a few Down and Armagh players to the Antrim team wouldn't do much to improve their lot either. How many Down and Armagh players would even make the Antrim team? Not many I'd imagine.

You can't compare it with the club scene as they're two different animals altogether.

buck65 · 18-10-2012 05:13PM

So the alternative of doing nothing should continue? Btw most county teams bar 4 or 5 wouldn't get within 20 points of Galway.
Let's not kid ourselves, none of these suggested amalgamations are going to win the All Ireland but maybe could become competitive given time. At the moment they are getting slaughtered.

MrJoeSoap · 18-10-2012 05:16PM

buck65 wrote: »

So the alternative of doing nothing should continue? Btw most county teams bar 4 or 5 wouldn't get within 20 points of Galway.

Waterford, Cork, Dublin, Offaly, Westmeath, Offaly, Wexford, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Clare, Limerick...

That's 11 teams for you. :rolleyes:

Syferus · 19-10-2012 04:03AM

Trying to use Offaly as an example of population being a weak excuse only serves to highlight the problem - Offaly are utterly no where in either code now.

Their success in hurling particularly came from a miniscule number of clubs - it was one of the greatest confluences of luck, opportunity and talent in the history of Irish sport. The exception proves the rule.

buck65 · 19-10-2012 08:38AM

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Waterford, Cork, Dublin, Offaly, Westmeath, Offaly, Wexford, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Clare, Limerick...

That's 11 teams for you. :rolleyes:

What a valuable addition that was to the debate. Well done.
Btw I didn't realise that Offaly had 2 teams.

MrJoeSoap · 19-10-2012 10:04AM

buck65 wrote: »

What a valuable addition that was to the debate. Well done.
Btw I didn't realise that Offaly had 2 teams.

Obviously a typo. Still 10 teams there, after you stated that only 4 or 5 could get within 20 points of Galway (utter nonsense). Care to revise your statement or are you sticking with it?

Also, I've already posted in the thread, so don't try and make it sound like I'm not contributing. I'm merely replying to a throwaway comment.

buck65 · 19-10-2012 10:12AM

Ok Offaly, Westmeath and probably Wexford of that 10 would be poor. (They might hold Galway to 10 or 15 points at best... maybe) Realistically we have 2 or 3 teams capable of winning an All Ireland (Kil, Galway and Tipp) 2 more that can compete (Waterford and Cork) and Clare, Dublin and Limerick coming through.
4 or 5 contenders for all trophies.

feargale · 22-12-2012 02:00AM

Very interesting discussion. I would like to know how many of the proponents of the idea come from or live in strong hurling areas/counties and how many do not. Ditto re opponents of the idea.
And keep it civil for heaven's sake. Too many good threads get lost in vituperation and petty point scoring. After all, you're not debating abortion or gun control.

Mal-Adjusted · 22-12-2012 04:48PM

buck65 wrote: »

Ok Offaly, Westmeath and probably Wexford of that 10 would be poor. (They might hold Galway to 10 or 15 points at best... maybe) Realistically we have 2 or 3 teams capable of winning an All Ireland (Kil, Galway and Tipp) 2 more that can compete (Waterford and Cork) and Clare, Dublin and Limerick coming through.
4 or 5 contenders for all trophies.

TBH, i don't know too much about Westmeath but you're definitely underselling Offaly and Wexford.

feargale wrote: »

Very interesting discussion. I would like to know how many of the proponents of the idea come from or live in strong hurling areas/counties and how many do not. Ditto re opponents of the idea.

Coming from a county where hurling is by and far the no. 1 sport, i think it's a terrible idea.

1) first there's the idea that amalgamated teams will win matches. i understand that you would be significantly widening the selection pool, but you're still targeting other weak areas.
i understand about merging counties being temporary, but that linches on success and success doesn't come from large catchment areas of weak talent any more than it does from small catchment areas of weak talent.

2) a parallel was made with the process of combining teams on club level. I can't speak for everywhere else, but the ones that i know of do it because of the numbers, not the level of skill. emigration is hitting everywhere and some clubs, regardless of skill, simply can't field a team. this can be more evident in underage sides.

this ignores all the logistical stuff about which county in an amalgamation hosts matches, the crest, how money is divvied up, where any trophies won go, etc.

I don't pretend to have all the answers but any suggestions i would have would be to focus on the grassroots, promote & build up the club game within the county and the inter-county side will hopefully see improvements.

nice_guy80 · 22-12-2012 09:27PM

well the GAA have just brought in a rule that no county can have seperately elected Hurling or football boards

so all the hurling boards in the weaker counties have been assimilated into the main county board (which is usually football orientated)

How does this rule improve the development of hurling in these counties? eg in Roscommon the hurling board, which has been in existence since 1948 has been dissolved and made into a sub committee of the county board, and the hurling clubs no longer have a say in who is put onto this committee
the same has happened in Westmeath, Meath and elsewhere.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 22-12-2012 10:57PM

I'd like to see the merger of all the counties in Connacht with the exception of Galway obviously.

nice_guy80 · 23-12-2012 12:32AM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I'd like to see the merger of all the counties in Connacht with the exception of Galway obviously.

i'd like to see the other counties in Connacht get some help from the Connacht Council for hurling.
they get very little.

Prop Joe · 23-12-2012 02:41PM

Merging counties is not the solution IMO.
I think the Liam McCarty is a strong competition

Pre-Lims
Westmeath
Antrim
Laois
Carlow
London

Wexford
Dublin
Offaly
Kilkenny
Galway
Clare
Waterford
Limerick
Tipp
Cork

That's a strong competition and having the CR winners moving up to the Pre Lim stage will keep improving counties.

CHRISTY RING

Is another very strong competition with
Derry
Wicklow
Down
Kerry
Meath
Armagh
Kildare
Mayo

The top 4 or 5 sides in this competition would really fancy themselves in the Liam McCarthy Pre-Lims

NICKY RACKARD

The Rackard i think the competition where alot of the ground work should be going in,Louth are doing good work with there structures so teams should be battling it out here to move on up to the big boys

LORY MEAGHER

I'd eventually try to phase out this grade and try to get the likes of Longford,Leitrim,Fermanagh up to Rackard level.

So if you had a 2 tier system Liam Mc & Christy Ring plus a developmental grade Rackard the game would be healty enough.

People need to stop day dreaming of a 32 county All Ireland in Hurling it wont happen.

CLUBS

I would also like to see the GAA creating brand new hurling clubs with big catchment areas.

There were 3 or 4 clubs in Tralee all playing underage hurling last year but they created a new club "Parnells" and they are thriving with a target to win a county minor title in 5 years and eventually enter a team in the County Championship.

This model needs to be followed all over the country they say in Cavan they only have 2 teams,Why not create 4 new clubs North/South/East/West and start off at under 8 level,It only takes 10 years till these guys are young men mad for senior hurling

eyeroad yearowl one · 23-12-2012 09:39PM

It's a silly idea really.

A much better idea might be to split up the bigger counties!

Merging means that even less players can play at the higher grade. It takes away from the attraction.

The only reason for merging is if they can't find 15 good young lads in the county to build a development squad off. Anything else is just making excuses for their own failings

rockonollie · 15-01-2013 03:31PM

A novel idea but I can't see it happening.....where does it stop? Keep merging counties until they're as good as the top level......you'd be looking at a potential leinster final of Kilkenny or Dublin or Galway vs Carlow/Wicklow/Laois/Meath/Westmeath

This obsession with making everyone more evenly matched is the first step towards open transfers, and that would be the end of the GAA as we know it.

Stevecw · 15-01-2013 07:28PM

Bad idea, a Carlow/Laois team might do better, but as a supporter Carlow is my county...thats who I follow no matter how average we might be. Still means a lot to me and i'm there year after year watching us play Armagh, Roscommon some years, maybe Offaly and Wexford the next.

The odd big wins like we had v Offaly & Wexford are great. As was our win v Westmeath in league final which gets us a shot at 1b this year.

Combining Laois with us would just ruin it all, could never care as much about a team that is half from another county. I'm sure Laois fans wud feel the same.

I'd much rather see a Carlow team wearing our co colours get relegated back to Christy Ring, than a Laois/Carlow combo somehow win a Leinster.

Kerrydude1981 · 16-01-2013 12:09AM

Prop Joe wrote: »

Merging counties is not the solution IMO.
I think the Liam McCarty is a strong competition

Pre-Lims
Westmeath
Antrim
Laois
Carlow
London

Wexford
Dublin
Offaly
Kilkenny
Galway
Clare
Waterford
Limerick
Tipp
Cork

That's a strong competition and having the CR winners moving up to the Pre Lim stage will keep improving counties.

CHRISTY RING

Is another very strong competition with
Derry
Wicklow
Down
Kerry
Meath
Armagh
Kildare
Mayo

The top 4 or 5 sides in this competition would really fancy themselves in the Liam McCarthy Pre-Lims

NICKY RACKARD

The Rackard i think the competition where alot of the ground work should be going in,Louth are doing good work with there structures so teams should be battling it out here to move on up to the big boys

LORY MEAGHER

I'd eventually try to phase out this grade and try to get the likes of Longford,Leitrim,Fermanagh up to Rackard level.

So if you had a 2 tier system Liam Mc & Christy Ring plus a developmental grade Rackard the game would be healty enough.

People need to stop day dreaming of a 32 county All Ireland in Hurling it wont happen.

CLUBS

I would also like to see the GAA creating brand new hurling clubs with big catchment areas.

There were 3 or 4 clubs in Tralee all playing underage hurling last year but they created a new club "Parnells" and they are thriving with a target to win a county minor title in 5 years and eventually enter a team in the County Championship.

This model needs to be followed all over the country they say in Cavan they only have 2 teams,Why not create 4 new clubs North/South/East/West and start off at under 8 level,It only takes 10 years till these guys are young men mad for senior hurling

Merging counties would work with the weaker counties that are in close to each other in terms of travel.but where would our lads go,who would we merge with??

I wouldn't like to see the day that Kerry would have to join up with another county,Id much rather see the hard work that is been done at grass roots down here pay off in the long run and that would see our Senior Hurlers return to the Munster Championship and be competitive,we are a long way off it atm so winning the Christy Ring again and having a good NHL campaign is the goal,we have the talent in the county to achieve that and that is where we are at,maybe having another crack at the Munster Intermediate Championship would be a good idea?

I like your idea Prop Joe it would give the Christy Ring counties something to work towards and an added bonus of winning the competition,but are you suggesting the Provincial Championships would be gone?

Prop Joe · 16-01-2013 12:15AM

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Merging counties would work with the weaker counties that are in close to each other in terms of travel.but where would our lads go,who would we merge with??

I wouldn't like to see the day that Kerry would have to join up with another county,Id much rather see the hard work that is been done at grass roots down here pay off in the long run and that would see our Senior Hurlers return to the Munster Championship and be competitive,we are a long way off it atm so winning the Christy Ring again and having a good NHL campaign is the goal,we have to talent in the county to achieve that and that is where we are at.

I like your idea Prop Joe it would give the Christy Ring counties something to work towards and an added bonus of winning the competition,but are you suggesting the Provincial Championships would be gone?

No i'm quite in favour of keeping the Leinster & Munster Championshiips.
Munster can be played off as usual with the Pre-Lims fighting it out for a place in the Leinster Championship.

Meanwhile the Ulster Championship is played off as a seperate competition these days anyway.

nocoverart · 16-01-2013 12:21AM

If two weaker hurling counties merged would they not be twice as sh1t?

Should weaker hurling counties merge?

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