Should weaker hurling counties merge?

buck65

Would it make any sense for neighbouring counties who are struggling at senior level to join forces for the Championship?

Teams like Antrim, Down and Armagh up north, the rest of Connacht, and perhaps Carlow/ Laois, and Meath/Westmeath.

Happening all the time now at club level where two clubs struggling to field decent teams join up and suddenly are competitive. Immigration is a large factor here at club level.

Let them play in the league as normal but what is the point of these teams taking on the likes of Galway or Kilkenny? Whatever small improvements are being made they just aren't competing against the big boys on their own. Wouldn't a larger playing pool make them better?

martomcg

I really hope this is a joke?

Obviously the GAA could never let this happen. What would stop the stronger counties merging to make unbeatable teams?

The same rule-set applies to everyone. If you were asked would a Donegal/Mayo final be possible at the start of the season you probably would've laughed in my face!

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

buck65 wrote: »

Would it make any sense for neighbouring counties who are struggling at senior level to join forces for the Championship?

Teams like Antrim, Down and Armagh up north, the rest of Connacht, and perhaps Carlow/ Laois, and Meath/Westmeath.

Happening all the time now at club level where two clubs struggling to field decent teams join up and suddenly are competitive. Immigration is a large factor here at club level.

Let them play in the league as normal but what is the point of these teams taking on the likes of Galway or Kilkenny? Whatever small improvements are being made they just aren't competing against the big boys on their own. Wouldn't a larger playing pool make them better?

to be honest i cant see it making any difference. 2 wrongs dont make a right, and 3 bad teams wont make a good one.

From a roscommon man, there really is not solution for a lot of the weaker hurling counties, as for most of them, football is the main sport and always will be. in roscommon, very few people north of roscommon town care about hurling.

buck65

martomcg wrote: »

I really hope this is a joke?

Obviously the GAA could never let this happen. What would stop the stronger counties merging to make unbeatable teams?

The same rule-set applies to everyone. If you were asked would a Donegal/Mayo final be possible at the start of the season you probably would've laughed in my face!

Mayo , Donegal in football is probably comparable to Clare, Galway or Waterford in hurling.
Not what the thread is about at all.

mathepac

+1

I think it's a brilliant idea. With an enlarged championship and players & management being exposed to the intensity of championship hurling, it has to be good for the game and will undoubtedly attract new supporters.

I see it as a win-win-win. In time, maybe a decade or two these "weaker counties" might be able to field competitive teams under their own colours.

Thanks, great idea. I was one of the sceptics who poo-pooed the "Galway in Leinster" idea. I'm happy to admit to being completely wrong; look at the match-ups it has produced.

buck65

Kenny Strong Television wrote: »

to be honest i cant see it making any difference. 2 wrongs dont make a right, and 3 bad teams wont make a good one.

From a roscommon man, there really is not solution for a lot of the weaker hurling counties, as for most of them, football is the main sport and always will be. in roscommon, very few people north of roscommon town care about hurling.

But would you not prefer Roscommon's few decent hurlers to join with their Mayo, and Sligo counterparts for a few years and swap ideas, techniques etc. Maybe less pressure on individual county boards, more money to perhaps attract a decent coach (if payments are being made cough)perhaps it could create a synergy?

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

mathepac wrote: »

+1

I think it's a brilliant idea. With an enlarged championship and players & management being exposed to the intensity of championship hurling, it has to be good for the game and will undoubtedly attract new supporters.

I see it as a win-win-win. In time, maybe a decade or two these "weaker counties" might be able to field competitive teams under their own colours.

Thanks, great idea. I was on of the sceptics who poo-pooed the "Galway in Leinster" idea. I'm happy to admit to being completely wrong; look at the match-ups it has produced?

a team of Roscommon + Mayo + sligo + leitrim + london + New York, would get hammered against galway

** actually the galway club champions would probably beat them too

buck65 wrote: »

But would you not prefer Roscommon's few decent hurlers to join with their Mayo, and Sligo counterparts for a few years and swap ideas, perhaps it could create a synergy?

I honestly cant see it working, also it require the club championships for the 3 counties to be in sync.

granturismo

When a Connaught team wins the Leinster Championship and losers in playoffs get a second chance anything is possible with the GAA.

buck65

Kenny Strong Television wrote: »

a team of Roscommon + Mayo + sligo + leitrim + london + New York, would get hammered against galway

you're right of course, but in time?

Westmeath made a game of it against Galway for a spell this year, what if they had a few Laois players as well, would it make a difference?

Yes club chsphips would be affected but this is a scheduling issue only.

MrJoeSoap

Galway (and Antrim) joining Leinster and the back-door systems were introduced to improve the Championship and have done so immeasurably, it's impossible to deny that. But merging weaker counties, as already mentioned, will do nothing to improve the Championship. Same goes for abolishing the Munster Championship, there is far too much history, passion, pride etc there to lose.

I'm all for suggestions to improve the Championship, but merging several weaker counties together to give them a chance just wouldn't work.

They are weak because hurling isn't widely played there, that is the issue that needs to be looked at.

buck65

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Galway (and Antrim) joining Leinster and the back-door systems were introduced to improve the Championship and have done so immeasurably, it's impossible to deny that. But merging weaker counties, as already mentioned, will do nothing to improve the Championship. Same goes for abolishing the Munster Championship, there is far too much history, passion, pride etc there to lose.

I'm all for suggestions to improve the Championship, but merging several weaker counties together to give them a chance just wouldn't work.

They are weak because hurling isn't widely played there, that is the issue that needs to be looked at.

Good points. Hurling is weak compared to other counties and to other sports played there, but the counties mentioned have strong pockets where hurling is strong and if kids in these areas see their county teams getting beaten badly every season there isn't much to inspire.

jordainius

Weaker counties need to set up more hurling clubs. There are many counties which have less than 10 hurling clubs, I think Cavan has only 2 or 3. I was told that the Cavan senior hurling championship is basically just one game a year between Mullahoran and an amalgamation of the rest of the county with the hardly surprising result that Mullahoran are dominant, their bid for a 22 in a row only being halted last year.


The merging idea; I don't think some people understand just how big the difference is between the strong and weak counties is in terms of both quality and quantity of player. Even if a team was composed of all twenty non McCarthy cup counties, that team would still take a massive hammering from a strong McCarthy Cup county (in my opinion!).

Tom Joad

jordainius wrote: »

Weaker counties need to set up more hurling clubs. There are many counties which have less than 10 hurling clubs, I think Cavan has only 2 or 3. I was told that the Cavan senior hurling championship is basically just one game a year between Mullahoran and an amalgamation of the rest of the county with the hardly surprising result that Mullahoran are dominant, their bid for a 22 in a row only being halted last year.


The merging idea; I don't think some people understand just how big the difference is between the strong and weak counties is in terms of both quality and quantity of player. Even if a team was composed of all twenty non McCarthy cup counties, that team would still take a massive hammering from a strong McCarthy Cup county.

Cavan hurling championship is a joke and is treated by such by the county board - last years final was played on the astroturf pitch behind breffni. Senior hurling team has been disbanded. While a hurling co-ordinator has been appointed (Tipp guy who is doing some phenomenal work in promoting the game) the county board only pay lip service to hurling - its not and never will be a priority. The county team was a bit of a joke - I remember being told not to go a NHL game a few years ago (as a spectator obv) as I might be asked to tog out - that's the respect given to the game in Cavan and in other counties. If you merged Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim and Longford they would still be destroyed by South Down.

buck65

Ok fair enough but what about an Ulster amalgamation?

Hurling in the likes of the counties you have mentioned might be almost dead but others such as Down and Armagh aren't.
Pity if a skillful hurler from Cavan has no hope of playing intercounty hurling.

Tom Joad

buck65 wrote: »

Ok fair enough but what about an Ulster amalgamation?

Hurling in the likes of the counties you have mentioned might be almost dead but others such as Down and Armagh aren't.
Pity if a skillful hurler from Cavan has no hope of playing intercounty hurling.

Yeah Ulster minus Antrim might work over time... but the key is to get into the schools/clubs early and start giving young lads hurls and sliothars for them to have any chance to develop - in counties such as Cavan I can't see this being done. Having never played hurling and not holding a hurl until I was about 18 I'm no expert but I assume that there is a age limit by which you should have the basic skills mastered?? For example there is no point going into a secondary school to start teaching the basics??

buck65

Yeah you're right. Hurling should be targeted at children from 4 or 5 years onwards. Realistically by the age of 10 they should have all the skills fairly well mastered.

Syferus

I really would like to see a system that allowed counties merge for the senior (and realistically minor and u21) championship trialled for an extended period - establish structures and see how it's going after five or ten years. The nebulous idea that 'hurling needs to be made stronger in the weaker counties' disregards the fact population bases only really enables one of hurling or football to be played at a high level in that code in most of those counties. Radical change is needed if the ultimate aim is to have more teams seriously competing for the Liam McCarthy Cup.

Here in Roscommon, from a base of seven clubs that play hurling, we've made this year's All-Ireland B finals at both minor and u21. It's not that we don't have talented players, simply that we don't have enough of them. If these lads have no avenue to play top-level hurling then it's obvious they won't ever reach their potential, or at worst for the sport, they will concentrate entirely on football which is an absolute religion in most of the county. Ollie Canning and others have been doing some fantastic work at underage here and it's clear to me if these sorts of people were given an opportunity to develop a truly competitive new senior hurling team they'd relish the challenge and realise immediately the obvious potential it has to grow appreciation and support for the sport in areas where it may have been a respected after-thought before.

It's one of the more out-there ideas but it really is one where very little is at sake of being lost and the potential positives are massive.

buck65

Yeah I think the major stumbling block would be local rivalries but that would dissolve pretty quickly once lads get together.

TheGoldenAges

Most counties with a football tradition don't seem to be interested in the slightest with improving their hurling team. One team who have beaten the trend is Dublin who put a plan in place in November 2001 and are making strides at underage level and their senior team is 4 or 5 years from competing for an All-Ireland. It's all about planning. Tipperary would be the same in football

wow sierra

Do people have any idea of the distances people have to travel to county training when there is only one county involved - never mind two or three. The county is the whole basis of the GAA - if you finish that you can throw your hat at it.

Talking about relatively strong teams like Laois and Antrim in the list to be amalgamated is rediculous - there is hurling played in counties way below the pecking order than them.
There are competitions for weaker counties - B championships, lower divisions in the league, etc. Roscommon are in a B under 21 hurling final which is being played as a curtain raiser to the Kilkenny Clare game - that's a good idea.

Tom Joad

TheGoldenAges wrote: »

Most counties with a football tradition don't seem to be interested in the slightest with improving their hurling team. One team who have beaten the trend is Dublin who put a plan in place in November 2001 and are making strides at underage level and their senior team is 4 or 5 years from competing for an All-Ireland. It's all about planning. Tipperary would be the same in football

Tbh I don't see this changing anytime soon with a couple of exceptions. Weak hurling counties are generally those with low populations are for the most part are struggling at the big ball game and while no one at the county board level will officially admit it its not in their interests to promote hurling. In their minds why would you promote a sport for which their is no tradition in the county to take potential players away from the majority sport and divert funds away too. There are a few exceptions of course where it can be developed because of population bases. That why the OPs suggestion has real potential.

Take the counties and look at where hurling is weak or strong and you quickly see a pattern:

Ulster 3 counties - low population, traditional suffer from emigration and generally struggling at the big ball game (Donegal obv a big exception currently) - no appetite to develop hurling.

6 counties minus Antrim - only half the community at best to chose from and no real tradition of playing hurling about from a few pockets in Down/Derry. - Potential to develop the game in Down/Derry.

Antrim - strongest county in Ulster - big population. Hurling is concentrated around north coast and Antrim is traditionally weak at football. Real potential to develop game around belfast.

Connacht:

Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon - see Ulster 3 counties - can't see much potential but amalgamation could suit Roscommon to develop.

Mayo - not sure why no hurling tradition - surely some potential here.

Galway - big population and tradition so can support both codes.

Munster - huge potential in Kerry to be developed esp round lixnaw etc. other all strong but with exception of Cork with huge population the big ball game suffers.

Leinster

Louth, Wicklow, Carlow, Longford, Westmeath - see Ulster 3 counties.

Meath, Kildare, Laois - should be huge potential to develop here.

Offaly, Wexford - do both codes ever do well together - these are probably the biggest anomalies to my theory!!

Dublin - huge work done in Dublin to develop the sport but should always be able to support both codes.
Kilkenny - football anyone??:D

GAA should focus on counties mentioned above as having potential and focus on mergers/amalgamations for others if they are serious about developing hurling

Syferus

wow sierra wrote: »

Do people have any idea of the distances people have to travel to county training when there is only one county involved - never mind two or three. The county is the whole basis of the GAA - if you finish that you can throw your hat at it.

Talking about relatively strong teams like Laois and Antrim in the list to be amalgamated is rediculous - there is hurling played in counties way below the pecking order than them.
There are competitions for weaker counties - B championships, lower divisions in the league, etc. Roscommon are in a B under 21 hurling final which is being played as a curtain raiser to the Kilkenny Clare game - that's a good idea.

It'd be no worse than the many Mayo and Roscommon players that have to commute westward from Dublin for team training. I really don't think that's a stumbling block that's intrinsic to this idea.

In any event it'd offer talented hurlers who just happen to have been born in a 'weak' hurling county to progress to the top level of the game. What's happening now is we're putting an artificial cap on the potential growth of alot of hurlers who together could develop into quite a competitive entity. Hurling needs to be radical because the pool of competitive has become far too shallow and even if it takes a decade and a half to build up these new entities that work needs to be started some time. I really don't see any other idea out there that actually takes into account the real metrics involved in 'growing' hurling.

Hurling is so marginalised in alot of these counties that it matters very little to even the general GAA population if the name of the team is 'Roscommon', 'Donegal' or 'Connacht'. I feel completely disconnected from hurling as a sport and I'm sure I'm in the majority in these areas. If you eventually give people a competitive team to follow they will support it.

Roger Sterling

I was chatting to a lad after the match yesterday who has been togging out for years for Longford hurlers and it broke my heart to hear of the shambolic way that hurling is treated up there by the county board. If joining up with a neighbouring county gives lads like thst s fairer chance of plsying on s competitive team then why not give it a go? Surely its better than showing up to training sessions without even a full team?

harpsman

martomcg wrote: »

I really hope this is a joke?

Obviously the GAA could never let this happen. What would stop the stronger counties merging to make unbeatable teams?

The same rule-set applies to everyone. If you were asked would a Donegal/Mayo final be possible at the start of the season you probably would've laughed in my face!

Wrong wrong and wrong.

Somehow i dont see Kilkenny and Tipp mergin.
Merging 2 weak teams to make a more competitive team is worth lookin at.
And no,in the unlikely event that you tipped the 2 beaten semifinalists to make the final the next year,no,nobody would have laughed in your face.
Certainly would have made more sense than that post.

riffmongous

I think its a good idea, it would be a great opportunity for those players and make the championships more interesting too imo, the more competitive games we have the better. A chance to play at a decent county level would also give players, especially young players from these counties something to aspire too which would have a knock on effect of strengthening the playing of the game in those counties.

Parish teams get merged all the time nowadays and parish rivalries can often be just as intense as county rivalries Plus its not as if a lot of those counties have a great tradition to lose out on.

LeoB

Good idea and worth putting out there. I would like to see it trialed in some way. The Junior teams of Kilkenny Tipp, etc should be allowed play in Rackard cup, Ring cup or in Div 4 of N.H.L. But the real problem lies at ground level. The work is not being put in and the structures are not there. It will take another decade for Laois, Westmeath, Antrim or Down to win a championship game that providing the work is being put in now.

It hs taken Dublin about 15 years to get to where they are now and there is still a bit to travel. Unless you have a decent structure in place we can forget about it. Louth have shown good improvment in recent years thanks to lads like Tony Corcoran from Ballyhale who gives a huge amount to the game but unless you have 4 or 5 Tony's around the county it aint going to work and as has been said some counties only pay lip service to Hurling.

What moved Dublin on was the county board and a lot of country lads who now live in Dublin persevering when things were stacked against them. We now see the fruits of their efforts but it will I think take another 5 or 6 years for Dublin to win an adult championship be it Leinster or All-ireland

The biggest problem I see is club Hurling. Teams from weaker counties should be encouraged and allowed play games in a strong neighbouring county, like Naas and Bray Emmets play Juvenile in Dublin. Some Carlow teams have played in Kilkenny competitions in the past and I am sure this has brough the players. One solution to club Hurling would be a competition between the top 4 clubs in Kildare, Carlow, Westmeath maybe with the intermediate champions of KK and Wexford? My club plays Junior "B" Hurling as do our neighbouring club but I think they should be encouraged to amalgamate and play Junior "A" or inter. Both clubs have done great work at juvenile level over the last 15years and maybe if lads set a goal to make a particular squad it would bring them on a bit also improve each club. There are 4 or 5 areas in Fingal and Dublin where this could be done. All the strong counties ahve decent club scenes.

Fingal have a hurling team which is basically from Dyblin Airport out. This has been good for hurling but still club football managers dont allow dual players tog out or at least ask them not to. They won their Minor All-Ireland championship and this will give the game a boost especially in the North Dublin region which is traditionally a football area.

Colm R

I thinks its a good idea in general, but it needs some planning. To begin with, I would consider scrapping some of the county championships in hurling, and merge them. To begin with, Connaught (without Galway) should have a single county championship. You'll probably end up with a senior championship that is not even half the size of the Cork County Championship. But you'd still get more games for the players.

Probably do the same in Ulster, or more likely an East and West Ulster championship. For example, the Cavan county championship is simply useless.

In Leinster, they should look at merging some of the weaker counties together. Thinking along the lines, of Meath/Louth/Kildare - Carlow/Laois/Wicklow.

Do that for a few years and see where we are, and if their is improvement. Maybe some of the counties would then be able to go it alone, and some would play as merged set up.


The whole thing needs to be legislated from the top down. Cavan, and other counties, cannot be allowed to get away with what they are doing to Hurling. And the rule should be applied fairly and implemented in Kilkenny also, along with some of the hurling counties in Munster (*tips hat to Tipp for doing a good job here).

Finally, they need to look at the rules regarding underage participation. Consider not allowing kids up to U14 or whatever to choose which of the two they do not want to participate in. What I would like to see is a club (at least the Juvenile part of it) not being allowed to use the acronym GFC.

Throughout the country there are hurling trainers giving it their all, only to see twice or three times the number of children showing up for football training.

So basically, whilst there is some argument for merging counties, or the championships, its more important to get kids playing hurling.

lala88

buck65 wrote: »

Would it make any sense for neighbouring counties who are struggling at senior level to join forces for the Championship?

Teams like Antrim, Down and Armagh up north, the rest of Connacht, and perhaps , Carlow/ Laois and Meath/Westmeath.

Happening all the time now at club level where two clubs struggling to field decent teams join up and suddenly are competitive. Immigration is a large factor here at club level.

Let them play in the league as normal but what is the point of these teams taking on the likes of Galway or Kilkenny? Whatever small improvements are being made they just aren't competing against the big boys on their own. Wouldn't a larger playing pool make them better?

cormac halpin wont like to see that....

breffni666

Cavan/Fermanagh for Div 4 hurling could work. Tyrone/Monaghan would be competitive in div 3. Winning one or two games helps promote the game in counties where co boards dont give a damn. Half a county would be better than the 0 county we have at the moment.

jimbo79

buck65 wrote: »

Would it make any sense for neighbouring counties who are struggling at senior level to join forces for the Championship?

Teams like Antrim, Down and Armagh up north, the rest of Connacht, and perhaps Carlow/ Laois, and Meath/Westmeath.

Happening all the time now at club level where two clubs struggling to field decent teams join up and suddenly are competitive. Immigration is a large factor here at club level.

Let them play in the league as normal but what is the point of these teams taking on the likes of Galway or Kilkenny? Whatever small improvements are being made they just aren't competing against the big boys on their own. Wouldn't a larger playing pool make them better?

i suggested this on another thread or maybe it was another site, and it got a lukewarm reception, i think a combined carlow laois and kildare team would be very strong, i think if they got results people would buy into it
an ulster team would also be a strong team as would a north leinster team

where the problems would arise is in funding these teams

redzerologhlen

It a good point that the work has to be put in a club and underage level first to get hurling to take off. I played a lot of football up to under 21's, my main interest from a young age was always hurling but the nearest club was 15 miles away (which we hated from football). We had an underage team up to u14 but couldnt make up the numbers for training or matches for a finish so it ended. Hurling is a lot harder to pick up than football which is why I think it is hard to get young lads to stick at it especially in the county's with little success at it.

We had a teacher in school, He was our football manager and a cork man originally and he told us one time you will only have hurling where you have good land and he was spot on the more I think about it. Only about 1/3 of Clare or less is play hurling as the primary sport. Its football all the way for the rest even though the trophy cabinet doesnt reflect it. There is a huge amount of work to be done at club underage level across about 70% of the country to get young lads to start and learn the basic skills and I dont think there are enough experienced people in the required locations to do it. It's a pity really because in my opinion its a more enjoyable sport to watch and play than football even though everyone has a different view on this.

Syferus

redzerologhlen wrote: »

It a good point that the work has to be put in a club and underage level first to get hurling to take off. I played a lot of football up to under 21's, my main interest from a young age was always hurling but the nearest club was 15 miles away (which we hated from football). We had an underage team up to u14 but couldnt make up the numbers for training or matches for a finish so it ended. Hurling is a lot harder to pick up than football which is why I think it is hard to get young lads to stick at it especially in the county's with little success at it.

We had a teacher in school, He was our football manager and a cork man originally and he told us one time you will only have hurling where you have good land and he was spot on the more I think about it. Only about 1/3 of Clare or less is play hurling as the primary sport. Its football all the way for the rest even though the trophy cabinet doesnt reflect it. There is a huge amount of work to be done at club underage level across about 70% of the country to get young lads to start and learn the basic skills and I dont think there are enough experienced people in the required locations to do it. It's a pity really because in my opinion its a more enjoyable sport to watch and play than football even though everyone has a different view on this.

Definitely depends on weather you're watching tv or attending games. There's pretty much zero argument that football is, overall, a better sport to follow at a ground, the pace of the game and the size of the ball are almost perfect for the focal length (so to speak) and reaction speed of human eyes. It's quite easy to lose track of a puck in hurling and sight-lines are necessarily poorer with a far smaller ball. That doesn't mean it's a bad experience, simply you need to more focused on the play than you would have to be in other sports.

On tv none of that is an issue, but I never buy into the 'hurling is a better/more enjoyable game' hype that tends to come up when both codes are compared. I try to avoid doing the same for football when this discussion crops up.

Each have their strengths and faults but both are two of the most exciting, skilful and culturally reflective sports in existence - isn't that good enough for everyone?

redzerologhlen

Syferus wrote: »

Definitely depends on weather you're watching tv or attending games. There's pretty much zero argument that football is, overall, a better sport to follow at a ground, the pace of the game and the size of the ball are almost perfect for the focal length (so to speak) and reaction speed of human eyes. It's quite easy to lose track of a puck in hurling and sight-lines are necessarily poorer with a far smaller ball. That doesn't mean it's a bad experience, simply you need to more focused on the play than you would have to be in other sports.

On tv none of that is an issue, but I never buy into the 'hurling is a better/more enjoyable game' hype that tends to come up when both codes are compared. I try to avoid doing the same for football when this discussion crops up.

Each have their strengths and faults but both are two of the most exciting, skilful and culturally reflective sports in existence - isn't that good enough for everyone?

I said in my opinion for a reason I'm wont say its a better game but its the one I would prefer personally even though I come from an all football corner of our county. It would be nice if hurling was played as widely football but its hard to see it ever happening.

cormac halpin

Kenny Strong Television wrote: »

a team of Roscommon + Mayo + sligo + leitrim + london + New York,

Jesus I'd say the commute to training would be fair sh|te.

buck65

Syferus wrote: »

Definitely depends on weather you're watching tv or attending games. There's pretty much zero argument that football is, overall, a better sport to follow at a ground, the pace of the game and the size of the ball are almost perfect for the focal length (so to speak) and reaction speed of human eyes. It's quite easy to lose track of a puck in hurling and sight-lines are necessarily poorer with a far smaller ball. That doesn't mean it's a bad experience, simply you need to more focused on the play than you would have to be in other sports.

On tv none of that is an issue, but I never buy into the 'hurling is a better/more enjoyable game' hype that tends to come up when both codes are compared. I try to avoid doing the same for football when this discussion crops up.

Each have their strengths and faults but both are two of the most exciting, skilful and culturally reflective sports in existence - isn't that good enough for everyone?

Are you confusing hurling with hockey?

Hurling is by far the better game, I've been to hundreds of hurling games and football games.
Football played well i.e intercounty level is decent but so much of the club scene is brutal.

Syferus

buck65 wrote: »

Syferus wrote: »

Definitely depends on weather you're watching tv or attending games. There's pretty much zero argument that football is, overall, a better sport to follow at a ground, the pace of the game and the size of the ball are almost perfect for the focal length (so to speak) and reaction speed of human eyes. It's quite easy to lose track of a puck in hurling and sight-lines are necessarily poorer with a far smaller ball. That doesn't mean it's a bad experience, simply you need to more focused on the play than you would have to be in other sports.

On tv none of that is an issue, but I never buy into the 'hurling is a better/more enjoyable game' hype that tends to come up when both codes are compared. I try to avoid doing the same for football when this discussion crops up.

Each have their strengths and faults but both are two of the most exciting, skilful and culturally reflective sports in existence - isn't that good enough for everyone?

Are you confusing hurling with hockey?

Hurling is by far the better game, I've been to hundreds of hurling games and football games.
Football played well i.e intercounty level is decent but so much of the club scene is brutal.

You'd have to have been living under a Germany-sized boulder if this is the first time you've heard a slitor called a puck.
Outside that the rest of your post is the usual 'we're better, yes, yes, us' blather I was talking about. Unfortunate timing.

buck65

Honestly this is the first time I've heard a sliotar called a puck. I've heard of pucking the sliotar though.

Squidgy Black

LeoB wrote: »

Fingal have a hurling team which is basically from Dyblin Airport out. This has been good for hurling but still club football managers dont allow dual players tog out or at least ask them not to. They won their Minor All-Ireland championship and this will give the game a boost especially in the North Dublin region which is traditionally a football area.

Wouldn't go saying North Dublin's a football area at all, clubs like Craobh Chiarain, St.Vincents, O'Tooles, a lot of top tier Dublin hurling clubs that have a strong tradition of hurling squads.

I do think the Fingal minor squad idea was great though. That's the way development squads used to be a few years back when I was on them, Dublin North, Dublin West and Dublin South. I think it'd be a great competition between the areas, and it could be extended to other counties, a bit like the Colleges competition. It'd also give lads who couldn't make the County minor squad a chance. Particularly in places like Dublin where there's only 30 places on a squad for a good few hundred or so young lads playing Minor hurling.

Flukey

It's a crazy idea, and that is the most positive thing you could say about it. The counties should work within their own boundaries. A few county boards need a good kick in the ass, or wallop with a hurley. Any "weaker county" has the potential to step up to the mark, and some have done it. Offaly only won their first Leinster title in 1980 and won the All-Ireland the following year. When you look at what Donegal did in football in the past couple of years, lots of counties could do that in Hurling if the effort was put in. Lots of counties are doing positive things in the two codes and progress is being made. Others are just not bothering.

Stupid ideas like merging counties and splitting counties are just avoiding the real problems. Moving Galway and Antrim was crazy and has proved to be a complete disaster. In their absence, nothing was done to help Ulster and Connacht counties. The draws for the Ulster Hurling championship was missing last Thursday night, although one exists. No Connacht Hurling championship was put in place with the other four counties, which would have seemed to be a natural and obvious thing to do. The GAA didn't do it, the Connacht council didn't call for it and the county boards of the four other counties didn't call for it. If anyone in any of those bodies were doing their job, they would have done so. It should even have been a pre-condition for moving Galway to Leinster. But no, they just moved Galway and did nothing to help the other counties, not even give them their own championship like the rest of Ulster has.

Leave the counties as and where they are, and start tackling the real problems. Galway are not a problem in Hurling, yet they were deemed as being a problem to solve. It is the four Connacht counties with very little chance of winning the All-Ireland that were the problem, but they have been ignored. Creating "new counties" is ignoring the problem. If you want to solve Leitrim's Hurling problem, then it has to be done in Leitrim and so on. Redrawing boundaries will do nothing to help the skills of individuals. It is down to the practical things like good coaching and a county board that does its job.

Syferus

Without top-level options hurling is never going to grow beyond a niche/localised sport in football-first counties, nevermind counties whose populations dictates only one of the two could ever possibly be played and supported at anything approaching All-Ireland standard.

It's all well and good stating the plainly obvious that grass-roots - the sport can chew gum and walk at the same time - need to be improved but those same kids and club players will never reach their potentials if playing in the Nicky Rackard Cup is the greatest goal they can ever aspire to.

premierstone

Syferus wrote: »

Without top-level options hurling is never going to grow beyond a niche/localised sport in football-first counties, nevermind counties whose populations dictates only one of the two could ever possibly be played and supported at anything approaching All-Ireland standard.

It's all well and good stating the plainly obvious that grass-roots - the sport can chew gum and walk at the same time - need to be improved but those same kids and club players will never reach their potentials if playing in the Nicky Rackard Cup is the greatest goal they can ever aspire to.

Population is a weak excuse IMO, Offaly proved that in the 80's and 90's winning AI's in both codes with one of the smallest populations in the country.

Prioritising of resoursces and fair play from the county board is the key - a perfect example of how it shouldn't work is the recent happenings in Cavan. Unfortunatly the current economic downturn has meant most County Boards are fcuked financially so the second sport (Hurling in the majority of Counties) will be the obvious sacrificial lamb.

buck65

Flukey
I don't think I mentioned re-drawing county boundaries to be fair. Your post is all well and good but it is not relevant, what you lay out would take at least 15 years to get these counties up to standard (i.e competitive in Div 1).
Merging counties is a stop gap idea to help struggling counties pool their resources and talents in the short term. It works at club level - why not at intercounty level?

aidan24326

buck65 wrote: »

Merging counties is a stop gap idea to help struggling counties pool their resources and talents in the short term. It works at club level - why not at intercounty level?

Beacuse the resulting combined team would in most if not all cases be little better than the individual teams it had replaced. Merge the 4 Connaught counties and they still wouldn't get within 20 points of Galway. Adding a few Down and Armagh players to the Antrim team wouldn't do much to improve their lot either. How many Down and Armagh players would even make the Antrim team? Not many I'd imagine.

You can't compare it with the club scene as they're two different animals altogether.

buck65

So the alternative of doing nothing should continue? Btw most county teams bar 4 or 5 wouldn't get within 20 points of Galway.
Let's not kid ourselves, none of these suggested amalgamations are going to win the All Ireland but maybe could become competitive given time. At the moment they are getting slaughtered.

MrJoeSoap

buck65 wrote: »

So the alternative of doing nothing should continue? Btw most county teams bar 4 or 5 wouldn't get within 20 points of Galway.

Waterford, Cork, Dublin, Offaly, Westmeath, Offaly, Wexford, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Clare, Limerick...

That's 11 teams for you. :rolleyes:

Syferus

Trying to use Offaly as an example of population being a weak excuse only serves to highlight the problem - Offaly are utterly no where in either code now.

Their success in hurling particularly came from a miniscule number of clubs - it was one of the greatest confluences of luck, opportunity and talent in the history of Irish sport. The exception proves the rule.

buck65

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Waterford, Cork, Dublin, Offaly, Westmeath, Offaly, Wexford, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Clare, Limerick...

That's 11 teams for you. :rolleyes:

What a valuable addition that was to the debate. Well done.
Btw I didn't realise that Offaly had 2 teams.

MrJoeSoap

buck65 wrote: »

What a valuable addition that was to the debate. Well done.
Btw I didn't realise that Offaly had 2 teams.

Obviously a typo. Still 10 teams there, after you stated that only 4 or 5 could get within 20 points of Galway (utter nonsense). Care to revise your statement or are you sticking with it?

Also, I've already posted in the thread, so don't try and make it sound like I'm not contributing. I'm merely replying to a throwaway comment.

buck65

Ok Offaly, Westmeath and probably Wexford of that 10 would be poor. (They might hold Galway to 10 or 15 points at best... maybe) Realistically we have 2 or 3 teams capable of winning an All Ireland (Kil, Galway and Tipp) 2 more that can compete (Waterford and Cork) and Clare, Dublin and Limerick coming through.
4 or 5 contenders for all trophies.

feargale

Very interesting discussion. I would like to know how many of the proponents of the idea come from or live in strong hurling areas/counties and how many do not. Ditto re opponents of the idea.
And keep it civil for heaven's sake. Too many good threads get lost in vituperation and petty point scoring. After all, you're not debating abortion or gun control.

Mal-Adjusted

buck65 wrote: »

Ok Offaly, Westmeath and probably Wexford of that 10 would be poor. (They might hold Galway to 10 or 15 points at best... maybe) Realistically we have 2 or 3 teams capable of winning an All Ireland (Kil, Galway and Tipp) 2 more that can compete (Waterford and Cork) and Clare, Dublin and Limerick coming through.
4 or 5 contenders for all trophies.

TBH, i don't know too much about Westmeath but you're definitely underselling Offaly and Wexford.

feargale wrote: »

Very interesting discussion. I would like to know how many of the proponents of the idea come from or live in strong hurling areas/counties and how many do not. Ditto re opponents of the idea.

Coming from a county where hurling is by and far the no. 1 sport, i think it's a terrible idea.

1) first there's the idea that amalgamated teams will win matches. i understand that you would be significantly widening the selection pool, but you're still targeting other weak areas.
i understand about merging counties being temporary, but that linches on success and success doesn't come from large catchment areas of weak talent any more than it does from small catchment areas of weak talent.

2) a parallel was made with the process of combining teams on club level. I can't speak for everywhere else, but the ones that i know of do it because of the numbers, not the level of skill. emigration is hitting everywhere and some clubs, regardless of skill, simply can't field a team. this can be more evident in underage sides.

this ignores all the logistical stuff about which county in an amalgamation hosts matches, the crest, how money is divvied up, where any trophies won go, etc.

I don't pretend to have all the answers but any suggestions i would have would be to focus on the grassroots, promote & build up the club game within the county and the inter-county side will hopefully see improvements.