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Oftec register

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Comments

  • #2
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Doubt it happening anytime soon. This has been pushed for years with FF so, FG & Labour won't be much better. Not enough deaths yet for them to sit up & take notice.

    If anything, it may be pushed by Insurance companies & local authorities. All LA's require an OFTEC cert from landlords wishing to rent to the LA. I do loads of them and is a good source of work as all recommendations on the cert must be carried out before they will take on the property.


  • #3
    pache
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 103 ✭✭pache


    All LA's require an OFTEC cert from landlords wishing to rent to the LA. I do loads of them and is a good source of work as all recommendations on the cert must be carried out before they will take on the property.

    Not All of em'..;)


  • #4
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    They do if you bring it to their attention!


  • #5
    jimjimt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 278 ✭✭jimjimt


    I do work for landlords who need council reports. I am not OFTEC registered all reports are accepted in full by the councils.
    All my installs are accepted by Firebird and Grant.

    I am anything but anti OFTEC.

    OFTEC will not be taken seriously unless they change there entry criteria.
    5-10 course and you can dictate how a heating system is plumbed and designed. No prior experience. Nuts...............

    This is why insurance companies and councils and boiler manufactures are not implementing OFTEC to the full.


  • #6
    Robbie.G
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭Robbie.G


    jimjimt wrote: »
    I do work for landlords who need council reports. I am not OFTEC registered all reports are accepted in full by the councils.
    All my installs are accepted by Firebird and Grant.

    I am anything but anti OFTEC.

    OFTEC will not be taken seriously unless they change there entry criteria.
    5-10 course and you can dictate how a heating system is plumbed and designed. No prior experience. Nuts...............

    This is why insurance companies and councils and boiler manufactures are not implementing OFTEC to the full.

    I agree in principal with you Jim about the training end of it but if anyone goes on a Oftec course and thinks they will have the know how to work on oil they are sadly deluded.There are a lot of Rgi's that should be let anywhere near a gas boiler.I think that Oftec might not be the complete way to go but at least you are working to a recognised standard.I have lost to many jobs to the type of installer that fits tanks on planks and boilers with wheel head fire valves that if there was a fire you would be as well with a 367 as that.


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  • #7
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    jimjimt wrote: »
    I do work for landlords who need council reports. I am not OFTEC registered all reports are accepted in full by the councils.
    All my installs are accepted by Firebird and Grant.

    I am anything but anti OFTEC.

    OFTEC will not be taken seriously unless they change there entry criteria.
    5-10 course and you can dictate how a heating system is plumbed and designed. No prior experience. Nuts...............

    This is why insurance companies and councils and boiler manufactures are not implementing OFTEC to the full.
    The Oftec 10 day course isn't a bad course to be fair (depending on the training centre)The main problem is letting guys on with no prior experience in plumbing and heating. It should really be an add on to a plumbers qualification or should be included as part of their apprenticeship kinda like the GIS was


  • #8
    jimjimt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 278 ✭✭jimjimt


    OFTEC is a profit making organization and needs the money from the volumes of accept anyone for training to survive and make loads of money.
    It would be good to have a register but not OFTEC because of the above.
    OFTEC training and literature is very good along with standards and ethos but their starting point and entry criteria is nuts.........

    It will be interesting to see in the new year what the new register of oil installers Ireland (is that right ?)will be promoting and what they will accept as entry points for training or crossovers to join will be. Will all OFTEC technicians be allowed to join or will their be a tinning out ?


  • #9
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    jimjimt wrote: »
    OFTEC is a profit making organization and needs the money from the volumes of accept anyone for training to survive and make loads of money.
    It would be good to have a register but not OFTEC because of the above.
    OFTEC training and literature is very good along with standards and ethos but their starting point and entry criteria is nuts.........

    It will be interesting to see in the new year what the new register of oil installers Ireland (is that right ?)will be promoting and what they will accept as entry points for training or crossovers to join will be. Will all OFTEC technicians be allowed to join or will their be a tinning out ?
    The ROII as I think it's gonna be know is gonna be working in conjunction with Oftec as far as I know. Now that's 3rd hand information and might not be true. At least it's being stopped that people who did Oftec were able to go on and do GIS


  • #10
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    jimjimt wrote: »
    OFTEC is a profit making organization and needs the money from the volumes of accept anyone for training to survive and make loads of money.
    It would be good to have a register but not OFTEC because of the above.
    OFTEC training and literature is very good along with standards and ethos but their starting point and entry criteria is nuts.........

    It will be interesting to see in the new year what the new register of oil installers Ireland (is that right ?)will be promoting and what they will accept as entry points for training or crossovers to join will be. Will all OFTEC technicians be allowed to join or will their be a tinning out ?

    That is incorrect. OFTEC is a non-profit organisation, just as RGII is. All profits are put back into the development of the organisation and to further public awareness.
    Secondly, OFTEC in Ireland has no legal standing. It is just a registered of suitably persons who have shown competency in their set out exams. The LAW is the Building Regulations of this country. OFTEC just spells out what the regulations mean, taking into account regional variations and compile a recognised register of technicians who have reached the required knowledge and standard of these building regulations.
    All manufacturers in Ireland have signed upto this requirement as it is the recognised standard of the industry and OFTEC are accepted as the organisation to implement it. Some manufacturers are slower than others as sales determine their objectives but others are actively changing their requirements. You may have noticed the new boiler passports with now a section for the installer to complete and the other for the commissioner. About 3 years ago it was costing manufacturers in Ireland circa €300,000 on warranty call outs that were down to poor installation! This figure is dramatically reduced due to better awareness and better installer practices.
    It is attitudes of installers that needs to change more rapidly. Not every organisation is out to get you but there to provide guidance. They have issues, agreed, but this can change with more cooperation from the installers.

    Finally, the EU has heavily regulated all fossil fuel using sectors, including the car industry, the aviation industry, the gas industry. Why will they leave out the oil home heating industry. Heavy regulation is coming down the line whether we like it or not. IMO, it is for the good & I welcome it with open arms as it will be good for both the installer and the user.


  • #11
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    jimjimt wrote: »
    I do work for landlords who need council reports. I am not OFTEC registered all reports are accepted in full by the councils.
    All my installs are accepted by Firebird and Grant.

    Every landlord that contacts me for Kilkenny CC has been told to get an OFTEC cert. Nearly every cert I issue has recommendations to bring the installation to current standards. On EVERY occasion and to the dismay of the landlord, the recommendations have had to be implemented for Kilkenny CC to accept the property officially.

    I am a service engineer for Grant and their direct instruction to me is to first check the boiler passport and the standard it is installed to. They do give some leeway but this is becoming less and less. Every boiler sold in both Ireland and UK must hold an OFCERT. Do you think OFTEC will allow manufacturer's to carry on holding an OFCERT if they blatantly ignore OFTEC installation practices. Again, leeway whilst implemation takes place, but it is rapidly changing.
    Grant manufacture and sell 1,800 boilers per week and most go to the UK which every installation must be compliant and certified either by an OFTEC technician or a Building Control Officer. The latter costing the non-registered installer a pretty penny for the call out and cert. OFTEC is actively seeking for this very same system to be introduced to Ireland and of the Councils they have had meetings with, they are extremely receptive to as it offers CC's a revenue stream that did not previously exist.


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  • #12
    jimjimt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 278 ✭✭jimjimt


    Yes you are right OFTEC do not have a legal status in Ireland. That is why County Councils and others cannot refuse reports by those who are qualified to work on oil and are not OFTEC registered.

    If OFTEC are non profit why do they need mass numbers for their training courses ? Should they not up the entry requirements ?

    Also a lot of manufactures warranty call costs are caused by those who are OFTEC registered. So I was told on manufactures training days. Mostly unchecked pressure vessels during servicing.

    Also Grant have on their list of Service "Engineers" those who are not OFTEC registered and have been used by Grant for 20 years and more and still use them to this day.


  • #13
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    jimjimt wrote: »
    Yes you are right OFTEC do not have a legal status in Ireland. That is why County Councils and others cannot refuse reports by those who are qualified to work on oil and are not OFTEC registered.
    As I mentioned before, the legal part of it is covered by Building Regs. Co Co's are also accepting that OFTEC is the industry standard and are requiring same. How does the Council know that the person writing the report knows the ins and outs of the building regs?
    jimjimt wrote: »
    If OFTEC are non profit why do they need mass numbers for their training courses ? Should they not up the entry requirements ?

    Because if they are going to war, they need an army behind them. No point in having a couple of OFTEC technicians in the country to make a change for the better, they need everyone on board.
    An allied trade is now a requirement. I agree it let people in that it shouldn't have. Those people generally do not survive in the real world and those that do survive generally end up as decent technicians as they are willing and able to learn.
    jimjimt wrote: »
    Also a lot of manufactures warranty call costs are caused by those who are OFTEC registered. So I was told on manufactures training days.

    I disagree. Just on numbers alone, there are much more non-registered installers than there are registered carrying out installs. I see it first hand and the bulk of warranty calls are for non-registered installers.
    A certain manufacturer will bung you in the back of their tour van, show you how to fill out the passport and tell you that is all that is required. They want you to install more of their boilers and do not worry about standards. They are also the manufacturer with the most warranty calls!


  • #14
    jimjimt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 278 ✭✭jimjimt


    The council's accept a qualified plumbers report as much as an OFTEC report. For the simple reason they are qualified and a trained professional. This is also an industry standard.
    Plenty of plumbers around Kilkenny and county carry out work for the council including oil installs and are not OFTEC certified. As I have done.

    If you go to war you need a professional army behind you. Not a 5-10 day trained army. Immortally rates would be high. Why not have 2-4 years training more of an academy where you learn pipe work etc, sent out on work experience. Then they might be taken seriously.

    The manufactures training/information day I was on was not in the back of a van. Your brought to a nice hotel for lunch. They accept a qualified plumber with a analyzer for their installs fact. Also they did not rate OFTEC over a qualified plumber. OFTEC servicing was as guilty as any other. Unless that was a load of spin. Down to the individual. I would say half of the installs I come across that give trouble are neither plumber or OFTEC installed.

    I was also in the back of that van as well. They were a couple of years slow about doing something with there issues.They did so, have to give them credit for that. A few interesting tips to be had. Also they did not rate OFTEC over a qualified plumber.Once again a qualified plumber with analyzer was suffice. More spin perhaps.

    My own believe is that FAS/FETAC will take charge of an Oil Technician registry in time to come. If they do not it will question their existence and why bother with a qualified trade if you can get away with 10 days training and a license to plumb/install boilers be an expert on heating systems from looking at a few diagrams.


  • #15
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    We are going round in circles here. The best scenario is a plumber that is also OFTEC trained. I do not know any plumber that could advise me of all or even some of the relevant regulations governing oil storage, oil supply, environmental risks, fire protection, flues, combustion. What OFTEC does is provide a sensible method to understanding this. Regulations change and improve and it keeps installers up to date.

    With regard to that manufacturer, I do not think putting a cover over the flue is resolving the issue as the issue is not caused by POC re-circulation. It is a design issue with the boiler itself. Their other resolve is to install a plume dispersal kit. It can help but is not the answer either. Site conditions determine the extent of the effect of the problem. I know a local installer who fitted one and was called back every single month with sooting issues. The manufacturer told him to fit a dispersal kit. He did at a cost to the client. Same problem. DGOBS suggested the resolve to me as the explanation of the issue made sense. I advised the installer and he has never been called back since. I have adopted DGOBS's advice with every call out and also never a call back.


  • #16
    Robbie.G
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭Robbie.G


    Of course there are problems with Oftec installers as well as others.Im not saying that if your Oftec your perfect or trained to the highest standard there is currently no body over the oil industry here Oftec I'd the only body currently here.If fas/fetec take charge that would be very good for the industry once there is someone to regulate it.As you see here on boards there are people that will try to do DIY work on oil boilers and havnt a clue what they are doin it's only a matter of time before someone gets injured from oil worse.So if there is no one else Oftec will have to be the way to go forward.Regarding them letting anyone on the course I agree totally I would
    Love to see it only open to people from a trade background but when I done my gis in 2004 there was forklift drivers security guards and the like on it and done mine through fas.


  • #17
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    Robbie.G wrote: »
    Of course there are problems with Oftec installers as well as others.Im not saying that if your Oftec your perfect or trained to the highest standard there is currently no body over the oil industry here Oftec I'd the only body currently here.If fas/fetec take charge that would be very good for the industry once there is someone to regulate it.As you see here on boards there are people that will try to do DIY work on oil boilers and havnt a clue what they are doin it's only a matter of time before someone gets injured from oil worse.So if there is no one else Oftec will have to be the way to go forward.Regarding them letting anyone on the course I agree totally I would
    Love to see it only open to people from a trade background but when I done my gis in 2004 there was forklift drivers security guards and the like on it and done mine through fas.
    If you saw somebody on here asking for advice on how to change a gas valve on a gas boiler they would be told to get an RGI.


  • #18
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    shane0007 wrote: »
    We are going round in circles here. The best scenario is a plumber that is also OFTEC trained. I do not know any plumber that could advise me of all or even some of the relevant regulations governing oil storage, oil supply, environmental risks, fire protection, flues, combustion. What OFTEC does is provide a sensible method to understanding this. Regulations change and improve and it keeps installers up to date.

    With regard to that manufacturer, I do not think putting a cover over the flue is resolving the issue as the issue is not caused by POC re-circulation. It is a design issue with the boiler itself. Their other resolve is to install a plume dispersal kit. It can help but is not the answer either. Site conditions determine the extent of the effect of the problem. I know a local installer who fitted one and was called back every single month with sooting issues. The manufacturer told him to fit a dispersal kit. He did at a cost to the client. Same problem. DGOBS suggested the resolve to me as the explanation of the issue made sense. I advised the installer and he has never been called back since. I have adopted DGOBS's advice with every call out and also never a call back.
    Would you mind sharing DGOBS advice and what the problem was Shane? If you don't want to mention names you could PM me. Thanks


  • #19
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Not at all. It has already been well covered here on Boards by DGOBS, myself and many others.
    The issue is the design of the boiler which in their wisdom, decided to patent the upside down boiler. Having the burner and flame chamber above the baffles is what is causing the issue. The combustion chamber temperatures are circa 1,100C. At this heat, the POC's only want to rise up, but they cannot. They are forced down through the baffles and then through the secondary heat exchanger. It then travels back up to the flue via a very small passage way of circa 20mm deep. By this stage, the POC's have dropped to a much lower temperature of about 60 - 70C and therefore much slower. On windy days, combined with certain site conditions, such as boiler located on the negative pressure side of the house, the wind pressure can be greater than the pressure of the POC's exiting the flue. This leads to poor combustion, sooting and ultimately, sooting of the photocell leading to lock out. It is not a re-circulation issue.
    A 0.65 US Gal/Hr nozzle allows 0.65 US Gal of kerosene through it at 7 bar pressure. The same ratio can be applied of the nozzle was slightly downsized, and the pressure was increased, the same volume of fuel is passed through the nozzle and therefore the the same kw output is achieved. The upside of greater pressure is greater combustion pressure is also achieved and it assists in overcoming the issue.
    So to resolve this particular boiler issue, down size the nozzle by 0.05 - 0.1 US Gal/Hr but increase the pump pressure by 0.5 bar will generally do the trick.
    The manufacturer cannot admit the problem as they are the 2nd largest selling boiler in the UK and Ireland and if they admit the problem as a design issue, the cost of rectification would be enormous. They should bring out a corrected design under a new model range and discontinue the older problematic model.


  • #20
    jimjimt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 278 ✭✭jimjimt


    Those warped baffles prove the over heat.

    Who says you cannot fix a boiler with a hammer !!

    I love my lump hammer :D


  • #21
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Not at all. It has already been well covered here on Boards by DGOBS, myself and many others.
    The issue is the design of the boiler which in their wisdom, decided to patent the upside down boiler. Having the burner and flame chamber above the baffles is what is causing the issue. The combustion chamber temperatures are circa 1,100C. At this heat, the POC's only want to rise up, but they cannot. They are forced down through the baffles and then through the secondary heat exchanger. It then travels back up to the flue via a very small passage way of circa 20mm deep. By this stage, the POC's have dropped to a much lower temperature of about 60 - 70C and therefore much slower. On windy days, combined with certain site conditions, such as boiler located on the negative pressure side of the house, the wind pressure can be greater than the pressure of the POC's exiting the flue. This leads to poor combustion, sooting and ultimately, sooting of the photocell leading to lock out. It is not a re-circulation issue.
    A 0.65 US Gal/Hr nozzle allows 0.65 US Gal of kerosene through it at 7 bar pressure. The same ratio can be applied of the nozzle was slightly downsized, and the pressure was increased, the same volume of fuel is passed through the nozzle and therefore the the same kw output is achieved. The upside of greater pressure is greater combustion pressure is also achieved and it assists in overcoming the issue.
    So to resolve this particular boiler issue, down size the nozzle by 0.05 - 0.1 US Gal/Hr but increase the pump pressure by 0.5 bar will generally do the trick.
    The manufacturer cannot admit the problem as they are the 2nd largest selling boiler in the UK and Ireland and if they admit the problem as a design issue, the cost of rectification would be enormous. They should bring out a corrected design under a new model range and discontinue the older problematic model.
    Thanks Shane. Know exactly the boiler your on about. Have had buckled baffles too jim. Actually had so much heat that the seal holding in the burner fell apart and burnt the ****€ out of the control box and solenoid.


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  • #22
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Another common symptom from them is an overheated condensate trap. Have seen them completely melted and POC's bellowing out.
    One other oversight installers also have is the oil tank outlet should be a minimum of 300mm above the burner. Not many oil tanks will have this when this boiler is installed.


  • #23
    jimjimt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 278 ✭✭jimjimt


    One boiler I installed (c44) even after down sizing the nozzle, fitting a plume kit,slight but far less problematic than before. I ended up taking out the top baffle. No trouble since. Must have just open up the chamber a little more and less restrictions for poc's.
    Of course FB told me there should be no need to do this !!!
    Still waiting for a better solution.
    No more baffle warps on this boiler.
    Efficiency remain the same.


  • #24
    kscobie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 257 ✭✭kscobie


    And be careful if replacing a digital control box with a standard one on the FB, it doesn't work, and will burn out the standard one too:mad:


  • #25
    DGOBS
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭DGOBS


    I also agree, OFTEC 101,105e, 600a, should only be add-ons to a qualified plumber. (as with Gas also)

    But both registers at the very least (Gas/Oil) should make this distinction via the register, ie, technicians (servicing/breakdowns etc) may not need to be fully fledged plumbers in some cases, but they should all make it clear that ONLY plumbers are INSTALLERS.

    FB boilers, where sooting of the photocell occurs would indicate combustion issues in the combustion chamber (as Shane says, back pressure) but if your ever concerned that recycling is the issue, lift the air intake snorkel 10 mm and drill a small sampling hole and use your analyser just as you would check for air contamination on a gas boiler before shelling out for a plume kit. When finished just replace the snorkel to cover the sample hole.
    Derating the nozzle has never let me down yet. Haven't had any need to remove baffles, but can see why they could get heat damaged at the back of the combustion chamber.


  • #26
    jimjimt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 278 ✭✭jimjimt


    Full details should be displayed on each register of backgrounds and qualifications. Only fair to the consumer.
    Plenty of non plumbers who would be sharper that I at faultfinding. So I have to do training in fault finding.

    A course should be designed for non plumbers/trade to make them installers. Pipe work etc......... On site training and work experience with experience plumbers/trades. At least a year. Course for everything else why not this ?

    A trade is one academic year in college and 3 years on site and you still have to do OFTEC and gas training, solar biomass, heat pumps etc...........


  • #27
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    jimjimt wrote: »
    Full details should be displayed on each register of backgrounds and qualifications. Only fair to the consumer.
    Plenty of non plumbers who would be sharper that I at faultfinding. So I have to do training in fault finding.

    A course should be designed for non plumbers/trade to make them installers. Pipe work etc......... On site training and work experience with experience plumbers/trades. At least a year. Course for everything else why not this ?

    A trade is one academic year in college and 3 years on site and you still have to do OFTEC and gas training, solar biomass, heat pumps etc...........
    The current Oftec course where I trained is very good at teaching fault finding. I already knew most of the installation part but there was parts I didn't know too.
    As for letting someone train for a year installing I disagree with cause I bet they wouldn't call themselves installers after the training....... They'd call themselves plumbers


  • #28
    Billy Bunting
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭Billy Bunting


    they should all make it clear that ONLY plumbers are INSTALLERS.

    So a Gas Service Engineer who's been installing gas heating/plumbing/boilers for 30yrs and have done their Oftec shouldn't be allowed to install an oil boiler ?


  • #29
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    Billy Bunting wrote: »

    So a Gas Service Engineer who's been installing gas heating/plumbing/boilers for 30yrs and have done their Oftec shouldn't be allowed to install an oil boiler ?
    Of course they should be allowed. The local postman who did the Oftec course in his spare time shouldn't be allowed to Install


  • #30
    jimf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭jimf


    imho for whats its worth i think you should have the balls to admit your limitations i know i do i have no plumbing background but think at this stage my fault finding capabilities are maybe on a par with most guys servicing oil boilers but that doesnt make me a plumber so if im asked will i fit or exchange a boiler i refuse politely and recommend a good friend maybe im stupid and posters on here will laugh and say im mad but id rather know the job was done by a qualified person and its not a confidence issue in this day and age peoples money is too hard earned/saved and if they want a job done what right have i to chance my arm and make a balls of a boiler installation


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  • #31
    Billy Bunting
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭Billy Bunting


    jimf wrote: »
    imho for whats its worth i think you should have the balls to admit your limitations i know i do i have no plumbing background but think at this stage my fault finding capabilities are maybe on a par with most guys servicing oil boilers but that doesnt make me a plumber so if im asked will i fit or exchange a boiler i refuse politely and recommend a good friend maybe im stupid and posters on here will laugh and say im mad but id rather know the job was done by a qualified person and its not a confidence issue in this day and age peoples money is too hard earned/saved and if they want a job done what right have i to chance my arm and make a balls of a boiler installation

    You have it spot on Jim, just as i don't reply to topics here that arn't my strong piont i also wouldnt touch work that i'm not 100% on, and who in their right mind is going to pay out a small fortune on equipment and insurance if they know in themselves that they are just not upto it ?? to state that only plumbers should be working on oil boiler installations is away with the fairies in my book. I know lads (myself included)who were working on oil boilers and installing them long before the term "tec" was invented let alone Oftec and most of the real brilliant ones are not Oftec registered and those that are (like myself) only do so because they feel they have to, i myself commission these new installs for these "Plumbers", and most of the time send them back on them.
    Oftec/Rgi inspectors are the key, my very first Oftec inspection came with the inspector asking the question, what is your past, and the RGII wanted the Certs and did the checks. The training centres could help be being honest about those they take on and the trainers not sitting back oblivious to whats going on dueing the "exam" just in order to maintain pass levels.


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