Problems with Love/Hate.

Happyman42 · 17-12-2012 11:50AM #1

Now that the season is over, can I say first off, well done to Octagon and RTE for bringing this series to the screen. It's a landmark series in terms of it's treatment of the subject matter and in it's production values and in terms of the audience it garnered for our national broadcaster. It cannot be ignored that a huge leap has been made here, but is it fully in the right direction?
It doesn't tick all the boxes to be considered a fully rounded out piece imo and I am interested in others opinions as to why that is. I don't think I am the only one who is disappointed at the missed chances here from a writing point of view and that is the element I am interested in.

All the way through it has sarcrificed credibility to entertainment and style, and pandered to it's core audiences predjudices, it has relied heavily on one dimensional stereotypes (e.g. Dano and eventually his boss)and whether purposely or unconciously it has portrayed a deeply misogynist additude, with the women as moveable feasts to the male storylines (this hierarchy in the story seems to be purposeful when you look at the posters which depict the 4 lead males of the story) most ridiculously in the scene where Siobhan offered herself sexually to Darren - suddenly the reality of her situation was less important than depicting Darrens moral dilemnas.
Looking at the fansites on FB and elsewhere it seems that the most anticipated thing was 'who was gonna get clipped' and the weekly 'gory episode' of violence or the latest sexist quote from Fran, which is fine if that is your thing, but was it right that they relied heavily on this aspect in the series, that sees itself as a serious drama? It seemed to me that it was the default remedy for characters who couldn't be given any more depth or nuance. For instance, the writers seemed to have completely run out of ideas for Darren, to such an extent that he wandered about a full episode and a half without any real connection to the story, they even lost interest in his wardrobe.

They ran out of ideas too for where to take the story of the prostitute and Tommy so they rendered him unconcious and left the story at that, no reference to the prostitute (I can't even remember her name, which says something in itself) who featured heavily in the season and never warranted even a passing reference as to what was happening to her in the final episode. She was that big a character that they devoted a whole opening to her situation. It seemed to me, that like the treatment of other women in the series, (they seemed to be either there for titilation, or to round out male attitudes rather than characters in their own rights) her role turned out to be merely gratuitious. They curiously developed Aido's thing with birds in the last episode, which also went nowhere as part of the continuing story but not one reference to a major storyline in series? Very curious and revealing of the intent imo.
These are just a few of the issues I have with it. I think there was an awful lot to commend here from an acting and directorial point of view. I have my own scale as to how big these flaws where but that isn't really all that important, I would just think it is important to open a discussion and hear others views on these admittedly 'finer points'.

bidiots · 17-12-2012 04:48PM

I think people read too much into a tv series, I doubt it's attempting to be Shakespeare on screen tbh. Put the brain down, watch and enjoy, or not.

seamus · 17-12-2012 04:56PM

The reality is that the women who get involved with gangland criminals are really just supporting actors, frequently subjected to mysogynism, rapes and beatings.
At the end of the day the show focusses on the gangland criminals, not on their partners, so of course they're only going to get minor roles in the show. But even at that, I think the show portrays the lives of these women very well - it's not glamourised or brushed over, they're correctly shown as mistreated, downtrodden and frequently terrorised.

OK, to a certain extent there's some gratuitous titillation, but it's not really out of place with the gritty realism of the rest of the show.

D.Q · 17-12-2012 05:07PM

gritty realism is a bit much, masked men whipping out machine guns in a leafy suburb...

AnonoBoy · 17-12-2012 05:15PM

D.Q wrote: »

gritty realism is a bit much, masked men whipping out machine guns in a leafy suburb...

Are you saying that's not realistic?

I can point to at least one famous IRA killing of a criminal that took place in what would be considered a 'leafy suburb'.

Happyman42 · 17-12-2012 05:37PM

seamus wrote: »

The reality is that the women who get involved with gangland criminals are really just supporting actors, frequently subjected to mysogynism, rapes and beatings.
At the end of the day the show focusses on the gangland criminals, not on their partners,

I don't neccesarily disagree with the first part (although I don't think it's as extreme as you suggest, unless you have some evidence to the contrary) but I do disagree with your 'focus' point, the show very definately focussed on Siobhan's situation in this series and the prostitute (Debbie I think her name was) She had an entire opening sequence devoted to the 'reality' her life and because it wasn't followed through I have the suspicion that her story was there to serve the stylistic agenda that the show had before it had any story. The style (call it gritty, call uber cool gangsta) continually trumped the story. I don't see any other reason for this storyline or her existence tbh.

InchicoreDude · 17-12-2012 05:47PM

no reference to the prostitute (I can't even remember her name, which says something in itself) who featured heavily in the season and never warranted even a passing reference as to what was happening to her in the final episode.

I think if you dont know the name of a central character like Debbie, then it says a lot more about you as a viewer than it does about the show.

However, I do agree that it was strange she was omitted from the final episode. Then again, one wonders what could have been done with her story. We see in the penultimate episode that she is in a circle, where she robs from her family. She would have bought more drugs then, engaged in more prositution. The only way to end her storyline would be for her to come good (And then the writers would be accused of being unrealistic by giving such a happy ending to such a tragic character), or to kill her off. And if you do this, you ruin the possibility of continuing a story that has not been fully explored yet (It may be too soon to kill off Debbie).

She should have had some screen time in the final episode however. Even if it was just to show she had returned to the brothel.

Tombo2001 · 17-12-2012 05:52PM

InchicoreDude wrote: »

I think if you dont know the name of a central character like Debbie, then it says a lot more about you as a viewer than it does about the show.

However, I do agree that it was strange she was omitted from the final episode. Then again, one wonders what could have been done with her story. We see she in the penultimate episode that she is a circle, where she robs from her family. She would have bought more drugs then, engaged in more prositution. The only way to end her storyline would be for her to come good (And then the writers would be accused of being unrealistic by giving such a happy ending to such a tragic character), or to kill her off. And if you do this, you ruin the possibility of continuing a story that has not been fully explored yet (It may be too soon to kill off Debbie).

She should have had some screen time in the final episode however. Even if it was just to show she had returned to the brothel.

I'd agree.....there was closure. They dont have to round up everyones story in the last episode, and there is another series to come.

Woody1997 · 17-12-2012 06:09PM

I know this is slightly off topic, but does anyone know why the woman who killed Darren (I can't remember her name) shaved her head?

newballsplease · 17-12-2012 06:13PM

Woody1997 wrote: »

I know this is slightly off topic, but does anyone know why the woman who killed Darren (I can't remember her name) shaved her head?

The death of her brothers may have affected her mentally.
Or she shaved it and wore a scarf to disguise herself when killing Darren.

Mardy Bum · 17-12-2012 06:14PM

Happyman anytime your points were satisfactorily refuted in the last thread you didn't even bother responding and kept up this same criticism a few days later.

Dano shared the same characteristics as his father, a violent thug, who was less intelligent and with a penchant for beer. You may call this one dimensional I would call it the natural progression of his upbringing, which was undoubtedly characterised by neglect and violence. His mother could see it in him and didn't want him in the house. The only person he identified with was his father which resulted in his bloodlust after his death despite being warned not to act by overarching powers. He didn't care for his wife or his children either. His marriage was essentially over (he wouldn't even stay in the house with the wife preferring to stay with the mother) and the only reason the wife was around was because she thought he'd get to keep the kids if she tried to leave. The only person Dano felt anything for was his father, who was from his brief appearance a hypocritical scumbag like a large proportion of the modern day RIRA.

Debbie's story was played out in the second last episode. She hit rock bottom when robbing her own mother (and this is after the prostitution). What else needed to be said? It was a sign of how tragic her life had become and the dangers addiction possesses. The only person who cared for her was in a coma. She has no one left in her life to help her. The show had to highlight prostitution as its a major criminal racket and the opening montage showed what it is like for the woman on a day to day basis. It was a horrific few scenes.

Tommy was always brainless. He jumped into bed with anything that batted their eyes at him. He was with Siobhan when she was 17 in the first series. It was no surprise he ended up with Dano's wife. She was essentially stuck with Dano because she couldn't leave him or she would have the kids taken away and so was looking for a way out and she thought Tommy may have been the solution. She could tell Nidge was a creep. Nidge battered Tommy because he is a narcissistic psychopath. He wanted the woman and Tommy was with her instead despite Nidge telling him to leave her home and call it a day. It would have been stranger if Nidge did nothing.

Costume is actually very important in the show so Darren's dress was not an accident. I think it may have been to highlight the difference between him and the narcissistic tendencies of Nidge and also obviously the fact he was on the run.

Siobhan always fancied Darren. It was no surprise she tired it on. Tommy was always cheating on her. She didn't think he would make it out alive so by bedding Darren she would have somebody to look after her. This is the defining characteristic of all the women. They are severely lacking bread winning characteristics and live off their husbands' ill gotten gains. This would be true to life also.

Animals and birds have been a constant throughout the three series.

This series was fantastic. The only issue I had is the change in Fran's character from season 2 which was a bit much but it did add to the show and the fact that Tommy's attempts to kill him was never brought up.

Mardy Bum · 17-12-2012 06:19PM

Woody1997 wrote: »

I know this is slightly off topic, but does anyone know why the woman who killed Darren (I can't remember her name) shaved her head?

She was throwing off the last remnants of her femininity as she killing the man she loved. She didn't want to be recognised either obviously. She was as cold and calculated as Darren was in many of his murders, she was well able to shoot from a distance unlike Elmo but similar to Darren's marksmanship. She was a female Darren pushed into the criminal world through no real fault of her own. She fell through the cracks as they say. She like Darren had to revenge her brothers killing as they were all she had.

Happyman42 · 17-12-2012 06:22PM

InchicoreDude wrote: »

She should have had some screen time in the final episode however. Even if it was just to show she had returned to the brothel.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I'd agree.....there was closure. They dont have to round up everyones story in the last episode, and there is another series to come.

If it was that then I think the montage of her continuing life would have worked better in the last episode. I just can't see what justified totally dropping her story. I am coupling it with the treatment of the other female cast some of which I am sure was deeply insulting.

Woody1997 wrote: »

I know this is slightly off topic, but does anyone know why the woman who killed Darren (I can't remember her name) shaved her head?

I think it was a little steal to Dallas tbh, done in the hope of setting off a 'Who Shot J.R.' type campaign. I sincerely hoped it wasn't done for that reason as it kinda cheapens a female character again, but looking at the screenshots it is most likely Lizzie. I personally think it would have been hugely more impactful if Lizzie had confronted him and he realised that it was her that was about to kill him, but that's just me.

Mardy Bum · 17-12-2012 06:29PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I think it was a little steal to Dallas tbh, done in the hope of setting off a 'Who Shot J.R.' type campaign. I sincerely hoped it wasn't done for that reason as it kinda cheapens a female character again, but looking at the screenshots it is most likely Lizzie. I personally think it would have been hugely more impactful if Lizzie had confronted him and he realised that it was her that was about to kill him, but that's just me.

The fact that you think this shows you have no idea what the show is about.

Woody1997 · 17-12-2012 06:30PM

newballsplease wrote: »

The death of her brothers may have affected her mentally.
Or she shaved it and wore a scarf to disguise herself when killing Darren.

Thanks, I thought that it might have been something to do with her being a rat( as was done to Donna) but it appears not

sock puppet · 17-12-2012 06:38PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I think it was a little steal to Dallas tbh, done in the hope of setting off a 'Who Shot J.R.' type campaign. I sincerely hoped it wasn't done for that reason as it kinda cheapens a female character again, but looking at the screenshots it is most likely Lizzie. I personally think it would have been hugely more impactful if Lizzie had confronted him and he realised that it was her that was about to kill him, but that's just me.

What? Firstly it was definitely Lizzie. Secondly Darren survived numerous assassination attempts, killed several people and shot her brother through the window of a moving car. Not exactly the kind of person you want to go face to face with.

Happyman42 · 17-12-2012 06:53PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Happyman anytime your points were satisfactorily refuted in the last thread you didn't even bother responding and kept up this same criticism a few days later.

The less said about the other thread the better. The 'satisfactory' aspect of your answers are subjective, please try and remember that.

You may call this one dimensional I would call it the natural progression of his upbringing, which was undoubtedly characterised by neglect and violence.

And we know this how? Don't you think your prejudice and others (displayed in the bolded type below) is being played here? And is that a responsible function of a writer of serious drama, to play to prejudice?

His marriage was essentially over (he wouldn't even stay in the house with the wife preferring to stay with the mother)

He explained to his wife why he was stayng with his mother after his father disappeared, perfectly natural for a concerned son imo although I agree his marraige was in deep trouble.

and the only reason the wife was around was because she thought he'd get to keep the kids if she tried to leave.

Another female character that was made serve the story rather than the other way around, from reluctant wife to mentally unstable nympho in one episode.

The only person Dano felt anything for was his father, who was from his brief appearance a hypocritical scumbag like a large proportion of the modern day RIRA.

See above.

Debbie's story was played out in the second last episode. She hit rock bottom when robbing her own mother (and this is after the prostitution). What else needed to be said? It was a sign of how tragic her life had become and the dangers addiction possesses. The only person who cared for her was in a coma. She has no one left in her life to help her. The show had to highlight prostitution as its a major criminal racket and the opening montage showed what it is like for the woman on a day to day basis. It was a horrific few scenes.

Which is your interpretation and that is fine, I disagree for the reasons above. I think the female characters where routinely used to serve the stylistic intent.

Tommy was always brainless. He jumped into bed with anything that batted their eyes at him. He was with Siobhan when she was 17 in the first series. It was no surprise he ended up with Dano's wife. She was essentially stuck with Dano because she couldn't leave him or she would have the kids taken away and so was looking for a way out and she thought Tommy may have been the solution. She could tell Nidge was a creep. Nidge battered Tommy because he is a narcissistic psychopath. He wanted the woman and Tommy was with her instead despite Nidge telling him to leave her home and call it a day. It would have been stranger if Nidge did nothing.

Again, where in the story did she do or say anything that gave you the idea she thought Nidge was a creep, the writers very definately led us to believe that a fling with Nidge was in the offing, then she suddenly threw the leg over Tommy. Read back on the fan thread at the lead up, there was positive salivating at the prospect of her and Nidge getting it on.

Costume is actually very important in the show so Darren's dress was not an accident. I think it may have been to highlight the difference between him and the narcissistic tendencies of Nidge and also obviously the fact he was on the run.

That's a bit of a ridiculous justification of a production oversight imo. Costume/clothes begin to reek if worn too long. Without a doubt the series was riddled with inconsistencies of this nature.

Siobhan always fancied Darren. It was no surprise she tired it on. Tommy was always cheating on her. She didn't think he would make it out alive so by bedding Darren she would have somebody to look after her. This is the defining characteristic of all the women. They are severely lacking bread winning characteristics and live off their husbands' ill gotten gains. This would be true to life also.

Which is fine if it wasn't coupled with the treatment of the female cast in the whole series.

This series was fantastic.

It's good but hardly fantastic.

InchicoreDude · 17-12-2012 06:59PM

If it was that then I think the montage of her continuing life would have worked better in the last episode.

I dont think it would have. It worked brilliantly as an opening sequence. It was not something you could put in during the main body of the episode really. And if you put that in as the opening sequence of the last episode, how would it have made any sense? The episode was about the climax of the Nidge - Darren - IRA storyline.

I think it would have been nice to see Debbie in the final episode. Earlier, I said she should have made an appearance in the episode. But now thinking more about it, I really dont see how it could have been done without affecting the episode.

I have read a number of books about Dublin gangland. However, its been a while since I have read them. I dont recall any 'strong' female figures in Dublin gangland. From what I recall, most of the female figures were involved in prostitution. Is there a particular reason that you feel female characters should be portrayed stronger in this series? Are there actually 'strong' female figures in the Dublin underworld?

fruvai · 17-12-2012 07:16PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

with the women as moveable feasts to the male storylines (this hierarchy in the story seems to be purposeful when you look at the posters which depict the 4 lead males of the story) most ridiculously in the scene where Siobhan offered herself sexually to Darren - suddenly the reality of her situation was less important than depicting Darrens moral dilemnas.

Disagree, she offers herself to Darren because she's attracted to him (before the rape she evinces just how starved for attention and how horny she is:p) and he's the only one who has shown her any kindness (he risked getting nabbed by the cops to go her birthday party). Their relationship is terribly underdeveloped but I don't think she was being used solely to illustrate Darren's conscientious nature (which contrasts to the hedonism shown by Nidge and the other lads), she is lonely (Donna won't even talk to her) and she wants to be with him because he has all the traits in a partner that Tommy lacks - he's smart,kind,loyal and he cares about her feelings.

Happyman42 wrote: »

For instance, the writers seemed to have completely run out of ideas for Darren, to such an extent that he wandered about a full episode and a half without any real connection to the story, they even lost interest in his wardrobe.

And turns up unexpectedly in people's gardens out of nowhere

I assume that Darren is supposed to be the only character the audience may be able to relate to (well-spoken,mild mannered,good looks etc.) a good guy turned bad, but I didn’t really buy him as a criminal (his gait, his mannerisms) and not because he’s a pretty boy actor (look at the Tom Hardy in the Take portraying a menacing psychopath). Maybe they put Darren in the same clothes for the whole season because they didn't want to worry about continuity errors :pac:

Happyman42 wrote: »

They ran out of ideas too for where to take the story of the prostitute and Tommy so they rendered him unconcious and left the story at that, no reference to the prostitute (I can't even remember her name, which says something in itself) who featured heavily in the season and never warranted even a passing reference

In fairness they've never had any ideas for Tommy, the sole purpose of his role (and existence:D) seems to be jump from one attractive girl's bed to the next. I have a feeling that Debbie's storyline might be kind a continuous one (kind of like Bubbles in the Wire). She ended Season 3 in a similar vein to Season 2 (desperate and alone). I don't know why they didn't give her at least one scene in the last episode though.

Mardy Bum · 17-12-2012 08:19PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

The less said about the other thread the better. The 'satisfactory' aspect of your answers are subjective, please try and remember that.

And we know this how? Don't you think your prejudice and others (displayed in the bolded type below) is being played here? And is that a responsible function of a writer of serious drama, to play to prejudice?

You refused to comment back on them because you couldn't argue your mind numbingly boring points without any references. The writer is not playing to our prejudice he is writing about the reality of the RIRA in modern Ireland. Are you trying to say they are some noble warriors portecting our streets or something. They are scumbags pure and simple like anybody attached to such an organisation.

He explained to his wife why he was stayng with his mother after his father disappeared, perfectly natural for a concerned son imo although I agree his marraige was in deep trouble.
Another female character that was made serve the story rather than the other way around, from reluctant wife to mentally unstable nympho in one episode.

The mother told him to go home and he refused. I don't even know what you are trying to argue here. Did you read my comment? She wanted out of the relationship and seen Tommy as the way out so rather than being a "nympho" she just wanted someone to take care of her.

[QUOTE}Which is your interpretation and that is fine, I disagree for the reasons above. I think the female characters where routinely used to serve the stylistic intent. [/QUOTE]

It is easy to make white washing comments about a show without looking at the characters and referencing anything.

Again, where in the story did she do or say anything that gave you the idea she thought Nidge was a creep, the writers very definately led us to believe that a fling with Nidge was in the offing, then she suddenly threw the leg over Tommy. Read back on the fan thread at the lead up, there was positive salivating at the prospect of her and Nidge getting it on.

Nidge kissed her in the first or second episode and she was disgusted. She couldn't wait to get away from him in the bar as well.

That's a bit of a ridiculous justification of a production oversight imo. Costume/clothes begin to reek if worn too long. Without a doubt the series was riddled with inconsistencies of this nature.

Again with the white washing. Why does Nidge change his clothes in each shot? There is a video about the costume department from the show on youtube.

Which is fine if it wasn't coupled with the treatment of the female cast in the whole series.

So you think strong independent, intelligent women become involved in violent crime of their own choice and this happens in society now? Rather than the women we have seen in Love Hate who all either because of there up bringing or own addictions are involved with these psychopaths and scumbags?

Your arguments are circular and you offer no explicit references so your argument would not get very far in proper academic criticism which you seem to think yourself capable of.

AnonoBoy · 17-12-2012 08:39PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I think it was a little steal to Dallas tbh, done in the hope of setting off a 'Who Shot J.R.' type campaign. I sincerely hoped it wasn't done for that reason as it kinda cheapens a female character again, but looking at the screenshots it is most likely Lizzie. I personally think it would have been hugely more impactful if Lizzie had confronted him and he realised that it was her that was about to kill him, but that's just me.

Most likely Lizzie? From a story point of view and from watching it is obviously Lizzie. There's no other female character that would kill him.

A confrontation would be too soap opera. You're the one giving out about the series not being realistic and then you want someone who's going to kill someone in revenge to confront them in a melodramatic fashion. That's not real life, they don't stop to state their reasons for killing people, they kill them as quickly as they can.

Happyman42 · 17-12-2012 09:38PM

InchicoreDude wrote: »

I dont think it would have. It worked brilliantly as an opening sequence. It was not something you could put in during the main body of the episode really. And if you put that in as the opening sequence of the last episode, how would it have made any sense? The episode was about the climax of the Nidge - Darren - IRA storyline.

I think it would have been nice to see Debbie in the final episode. Earlier, I said she should have made an appearance in the episode. But now thinking more about it, I really dont see how it could have been done without affecting the episode.

I have read a number of books about Dublin gangland. However, its been a while since I have read them. I dont recall any 'strong' female figures in Dublin gangland. From what I recall, most of the female figures were involved in prostitution. Is there a particular reason that you feel female characters should be portrayed stronger in this series? Are there actually 'strong' female figures in the Dublin underworld?

They referenced Aido's birds in this episode you say had no room for anything else and it also had no effect on the outcome.

I am not at all and never have been saying that they should be 'strong' women. What I am saying is that they where used to develop the male storylines and in that sense where portrayed negatively.

fruvai wrote: »

Disagree, she offers herself to Darren because she's attracted to him (before the rape she evinces just how starved for attention and how horny she is:p) and he's the only one who has shown her any kindness (he risked getting nabbed by the cops to go her birthday party).

He risked'?? He was wandered about Dublin with impunity, he even sauntered into Nidges when it was being watched by Dano's gang. I think her offering herself in the way she did was deeply insulting to rape victims, a few hours earlier she was in deep trauma about the rape. That trauma was switched on and off by the writers.

Their relationship is terribly underdeveloped but I don't think she was being used solely to illustrate Darren's conscientious nature (which contrasts to the hedonism shown by Nidge and the other lads), she is lonely (Donna won't even talk to her) and she wants to be with him because he has all the traits in a partner that Tommy lacks - he's smart,kind,loyal and he cares about her feelings.

Maybe if she had tried to tell him all that or we had seen her trying to convey that it would have credibilty but I honestly think you may be projecting something that wasn't there.

Mardy Bum wrote: »

You refused to comment back on them because you couldn't argue your mind numbingly boring points

You have the other thread if this one is boring you. I and others weren't allowed to develop any arguments without the shrills interveneing.

The writer is not playing to our prejudice he is writing about the reality of the RIRA in modern Ireland. Are you trying to say they are some noble warriors portecting our streets or something. They are scumbags pure and simple like anybody attached to such an organisation.

Again, where did it mention that he had a violent or turbulent upbringing? Where do you get the idea that RIRA men are cruel to or neglectful of their children, are you again not supposing this all from a bias, a bias these writers capitalised on? Nidge was allowed to love his son, he is a 'scumbag' too, Darren was allowed to love his family members and his GF, was he not 'scum' too? But yet RIRA are special type of 'scum' in your opinion?
They played middle class pre-conceptions here in the portrayal of 3 main characters. In writing terms, that's having your cake and eating it.

And before you over-react again, I am NOT saying they are 'noble warriors' I am saying they are complex and nuanced people, just like Nidge was, just like they tried to make Darrren and just like you and me. Writers who pander to pre-conceptions are bad writers.

Nidge kissed her in the first or second episode and she was disgusted. She couldn't wait to get away from him in the bar as well.

Are you saying that the writers did not set up the possibility of an affair with Nidge? That's crazy, it was on the cards from the get-go. She came to the front door with her nightgown open ffs. They played with the character and us the viewer and the confusion that created is evident in your viewing of it.

So you think strong independent, intelligent women become involved in violent crime of their own choice and this happens in society now? Rather than the women we have seen in Love Hate who all either because of there up bringing or own addictions are involved with these psychopaths and scumbags?

Again, as I said to an earlier poster, I never mentioned 'strong independent' women.

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Most likely Lizzie? From a story point of view and from watching it is obviously Lizzie. There's no other female character that would kill him.

A confrontation would be too soap opera. You're the one giving out about the series not being realistic and then you want someone who's going to kill someone in revenge to confront them in a melodramatic fashion. That's not real life, they don't stop to state their reasons for killing people, they kill them as quickly as they can.

The poster asked what was our opinion on why she shaved her head, that was mine. I don't think it can ever be 'real life', they have dramatic licence and a confrontation of sorts would have been interesting but then we wouldn't have the shock value of the squibs going off. In short I felt a bit cheated in terms of the content.

Pacing Mule · 17-12-2012 09:46PM

The good thing about this thread is it saves all this sh!te being posted in and cluttering up the main thread.

fruvai · 17-12-2012 09:51PM

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

The good thing about this thread is it saves all this sh!te being posted in and cluttering up the main thread.

Yeah that thread is for discussing if Darren is still alive or not

Mardy Bum · 17-12-2012 10:34PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

You have the other thread if this one is boring you. I and others weren't allowed to develop any arguments without the shrills interveneing.
Again, where did it mention that he had a violent or turbulent upbringing? Where do you get the idea that RIRA men are cruel to or neglectful of their children, are you again not supposing this all from a bias, a bias these writers capitalised on? Nidge was allowed to love his son, he is a 'scumbag' too, Darren was allowed to love his family members and his GF, was he not 'scum' too? But yet RIRA are special type of 'scum' in your opinion?
They played middle class pre-conceptions here in the portrayal of 3 main characters. In writing terms, that's having your cake and eating it.

And before you over-react again, I am NOT saying they are 'noble warriors' I am saying they are complex and nuanced people, just like Nidge was, just like they tried to make Darrren and just like you and me. Writers who pander to pre-conceptions are bad writers.
Are you saying that the writers did not set up the possibility of an affair with Nidge? That's crazy, it was on the cards from the get-go. She came to the front door with her nightgown open ffs. They played with the character and us the viewer and the confusion that created is evident in your viewing of it.
Again, as I said to an earlier poster, I never mentioned 'strong independent' women.

You don't think the man who raped a girl in a bar and robbed numerous banks and was a prominent member of the RIRA was a nice guy. His wife couldn't wait to get rid of all his possessions. She was waiting for him to die. She did not want any of his remains left in the house. Now if his wife thought this of him it is easy to infer he was not the most loving husband. The parallel between Dano and Git is so obvious its astounding but you cannot see it, surprise surprise.
The two lads were complex. The two fellas actually believe they are "saving Ireland". Dano loves his father but is indifferent to everyone else and Git is a hypocritical "git" when it came to drugs. Regardless of whether the lads were in the RIRA or not they are not one dimensional and are nuanced characters.

Nidge arrived at the house with Dano in the earlier hours of the morning. What did you expect her to be wearing? Shock horror a tiny bit of sex appeal on a show I've never seen that before in the Wire, Sopranos or Breaking Bad.

If you didn't want strong independent women what did you want. They were nuanced characters and the type of women who get sucked into that way of life.

Happyman42 · 17-12-2012 10:58PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

You don't think the man who raped a girl in a bar and robbed numerous banks and was a prominent member of the RIRA was a nice guy. His wife couldn't wait to get rid of all his possessions. She was waiting for him to die. She did not want any of his remains left in the house. Now if his wife thought this of him it is easy to infer he was not the most loving husband. The parallel between Dano and Git is so obvious its astounding but you cannot see it, surprise surprise.

I never mentioned his role as a husband, I asked you what is it that makes you think 'scum' like Nit are any different to 'scum' like Nidge and why was Nidge's character allowed to love his child, yet you are convinced that 'Nit' brought his child up violently and badly because he is a certain type of 'scum' despite the fact that Dano's upbringing is never alluded to? See how they are playing with your pre-conceptions?

The two lads were complex. The two fellas actually believe they are "saving Ireland". Dano loves his father but is indifferent to everyone else and Git is a hypocritical "git" when it came to drugs. Regardless of whether the lads were in the RIRA or not they are not one dimensional and are nuanced characters.

Dano was as one-dimensional as a plank. We where not told anything about him and we only seen him growling at the camera, it made the pidgeon scene a tad cringeworthy as it came out of nowhere. THe treatment of the whole RIRA thing played to the gallery that had it's mind made up, it didn't illuminate anything and good drama should do that./

Nidge arrived at the house with Dano in the earlier hours of the morning. What did you expect her to be wearing? Shock horror a tiny bit of sex appeal on a show I've never seen that before in the Wire, Sopranos or Breaking Bad.

Are you saying that the writers didn't set up the possibility that Nidge was going to have a fling with her, which this doorway scene was part of?

If you didn't want strong independent women what did you want. They were nuanced characters and the type of women who get sucked into that way of life.

I wanted truthful portrayals not dramatic tools. Too many of the women in this where just that. If characters are essentially true to themselves you can do anything with them.

Mardy Bum · 17-12-2012 11:29PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I never mentioned his role as a husband, I asked you what is it that makes you think 'scum' like Nit are any different to 'scum' like Nidge and why was Nidge's character allowed to love his child, yet you are convinced that 'Nit' brought his child up violently and badly because he is a certain type of 'scum' despite the fact that Dano's upbringing is never alluded to? See how they are playing with your pre-conceptions?

Dano was as one-dimensional as a plank. We where not told anything about him and we only seen him growling at the camera, it made the pidgeon scene a tad cringeworthy as it came out of nowhere. THe treatment of the whole RIRA thing played to the gallery that had it's mind made up, it didn't illuminate anything and good drama should do that./

Are you saying that the writers didn't set up the possibility that Nidge was going to have a fling with her, which this doorway scene was part of?

I wanted truthful portrayals not dramatic tools. Too many of the women in this where just that. If characters are essentially true to themselves you can do anything with them.

Git brought his children up violently yes. It doesn't matter if hes in the RIRA or not. He did that is clear. There is no playing with my preconceptions. The two brothers who ended up dead where different than Dano. One was abused and had only received his compensation and died. Their mother had a toy boy thirty years younger so you can only imagine what sort of mother she was. They were nice fellas. They gave Darren the warning to leave. Dano and Git however were simply not nice people regardless of their affiliations.

Unless you failed to watch the show or read my comments we were told quite a bit about Dano.

Nidge was mad after anything with a pulse. He would get with anything with a pulse. He was the one who made it his prerogative to see Dano's wife at any chance (invited her to the party, took it upon himself to bring Dano home) because he fancied her. However the feelings were not mutual. The story played itself out rather than the writers using Nidge as a puppet.

Happyman42 · 17-12-2012 11:47PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Git brought his children up violently yes.

How do you or we know that? Are you not projecting again?

The two brothers who ended up dead where different than Dano. One was abused and had only received his compensation and died. Their mother had a toy boy thirty years younger so you can only imagine what sort of mother she was. They were nice fellas.

How did they end up so 'nice' if they had the mother you imagine?

They gave Darren the warning to leave. Dano and Git however were simply not nice people regardless of their affiliations.

They were not 'nice' because it was lazy writing.

Unless you failed to watch the show or read my comments we were told quite a bit about Dano.

No we didn't, not as a nuanced and complex character, we knew more about Debbie and her story was dropped.

Nidge was mad after anything with a pulse. He would get with anything with a pulse. He was the one who made it his prerogative to see Dano's wife at any chance (invited her to the party, took it upon himself to bring Dano home) because he fancied her. However the feelings were not mutual. The story played itself out rather than the writers using Nidge as a puppet.

All the men with the exception of Darren where mad after anything with a pulse. This relationship with Dano's wife was developed to allow Nidge to beat Tommy senseless and for that reason only, that's plain as the nose on your face. She was, like other females in the series a 'dramatic tool' in that story.

AnonoBoy · 17-12-2012 11:48PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Are you saying that the writers didn't set up the possibility that Nidge was going to have a fling with her, which this doorway scene was part of?

That scene clearly showed that while Nidge wanted to have a fling with her she was in no way interested in him. If you read that scene any differently then really you have no business critiquing television because it was blindingly obvious.

fruvai · 18-12-2012 12:01AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

He risked'?? He was wandered about Dublin with impunity, he even sauntered into Nidges when it was being watched by Dano's gang.

Well the guards were meant to be after him in connection with the murder and then that pressure seemed to kind of to peter out. He didn't exactly saunter into Nidge's house either, he came in from the garden which suggests that he was trying to avoid being spotted by Dano's gang.

Happyman42 wrote: »

I think her offering herself in the way she did was deeply insulting to rape victims, a few hours earlier she was in deep trauma about the rape. That trauma was switched on and off by the writers.
Maybe if she had tried to tell him all that or we had seen her trying to convey that it would have credibilty

That was my initial impression anyway. I've only seen it once so I'll have to go back and look at it again. I thought it was something that had been building for a while (Siobhan's sheer anger and despair at Tommy's infidelities) and is clearly evident in Season 2. It kinda parallels Dano's wife's dalliance with Tommy (someone who showed her genuine kindness, who wasn't looking for anything in return unlike durtburd Nidge and exactly why she rejected his advances). Desperately unhappy women who have been messed around and searching for an escape (regardless of how ephemeral)

Happyman42 wrote: »

I honestly think you may be projecting something that wasn't there.

Maybe so, but I may not be the only one

Happyman42 · 18-12-2012 12:23AM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

That scene clearly showed that while Nidge wanted to have a fling with her she was in no way interested in him. If you read that scene any differently then really you have no business critiquing television because it was blindingly obvious.

It was a two way, will she won't she thing until the scene in the pub where Tommy ended up driving her home. The point is, her character was 'used' to develop the storyline between Nidge and Tommy and then like Debbie her story was dropped. Siobhan's rape trauma was used in a similar way and then dropped from the story when no longer useful.

Problems with Love/Hate.

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