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Would you refuse treatment from a religious Doctor?

2

Comments

  • #32
    Tonyandthewhale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,867 ✭✭✭Tonyandthewhale


    Although I'm not religious/spiritual/theistic myself I'm here long enough to know that there are plenty of perfectly intelligent and well educated religious people and that neither atheists nor theists hold a monopoly on cleverness or dumb****tery.

    I'm sure a significant proportion of the medical professionals I've dealt with over the years have had at least some religious leanings (although it's never come up in conversation with any of them) but it's never been any issue. None of them have ever suggesting eschewing modern medicine in favour of a strict prayer regime or a pilgrimage so I'm happy out.

    A doctor who brings their religion into their medical practice is of course a completely different animal to a doctor who just so happens to be religious on their own time.


  • #33
    keith16
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭keith16


    stimpson wrote: »
    How can the state have religious beliefs?

    The constitution allows for saving the mothers life, even if it hasn't been legislated for yet.

    Well the constitution didn't save her, precisely because it hasn't been legislated for. Regardless, the doctors own beliefs had nothing to do with the case.


  • #34
    Collie D
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,585 ✭✭✭✭Collie D


    asphalt_jungle wrote: »
    No. Just another unfufilled contract. We live in relatively free society.

    But not free enough to have religious beliefs and be a doctor? You're a bigot.

    Unless a surgeon invites his medical team to hold hands and start chanting over me as I lie in my hospital bed instead of treating me I wouldn't have an issue.

    Ridiculous thread/troll...I'm out.


  • #35
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    Eramen wrote: »
    "Hello, I'm a Hindu and I believe you have a kidney infection!"


    "..Ugh.. thanks doc."


    what's a Hindu?
















    lay eggs :pac:


  • #36
    stimpson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,711 ✭✭✭stimpson


    keith16 wrote: »
    Well the constitution didn't save her, precisely because it hasn't been legislated for. Regardless, the doctors own beliefs had nothing to do with the case.

    The constitution is the supreme law of the land so legislation was not necessary. She was told nothing could be done because "this is a Catholic country". Go read up on the case, there's a good lad.


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  • #37
    keith16
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭keith16


    stimpson wrote: »
    The constitution is the supreme law of the land so legislation was not necessary. She was told nothing could be done because "this is a Catholic country". Go read up on the case, there's a good lad.

    Yeah, what part of the above speaks to the religious beliefs of the doctor?

    Why are you being so condescending? Completely unnecessary.


  • #38
    minidazzler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,650 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    asphalt_jungle wrote: »
    You can't practice Medicine without a Degree, but you also cannot practice Medicine without a professional licence. Having a Degree is just the first hurdle. Religious belief should be factored into fitness to practice medicine. Controversial, perhaps. The logic is sound though. I cannot fathom how a medical practicioner can believe in religion. It's as absurd as an Honest Politician. Fundamentally incompatible ideologies, in both instances.

    The pioneering physicians before the west destroyed so much were Muslims in the east....who if you remember correctly believe in Allah.

    Being religious doesn't make someone a bad doctor....but if they believed that it was all in gods hands and that medicine isn't needed then they aren't just a nut job.

    A properly religious doctor will look at the skills and knowledge they have obtained through study as a gift from god to help them help people. That I'm OK with despite my complete lack of religion or faith in a God.

    If they let someone die because of their own religion they should be jailed.


  • #39
    stimpson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,711 ✭✭✭stimpson


    keith16 wrote: »
    Yeah, what part of the above speaks to the religious beliefs of the doctor?

    Why are you being so condescending? Completely unnecessary.

    She was denied an abortion based on religious beliefs. Unless you can show me how a country can have beliefs, it was the religious beliefs of the staff that cost that woman her life.


  • #40
    asphalt_jungle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12 ✭asphalt_jungle


    Collie D wrote: »
    But not free enough to have religious beliefs and be a doctor? You're a bigot.

    Unless a surgeon invites his medical team to hold hands and start chanting over me as I lie in my hospital bed instead of treating me I wouldn't have an issue.

    Ridiculous thread/troll...I'm out.

    No, just a consumer. Everybody is a bigot. At least to some degree. A job interview, is a good example of bigotry. Companies practice bigotry every single day. That is why they don't give you exact reasons for rejection. It would open their intolerance to legal action.


  • #41
    keith16
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭keith16


    stimpson wrote: »
    She was denied an abortion based on religious beliefs. Unless you can show me how a country can have beliefs, it was the religious beliefs of the staff that cost that woman her life.

    You said it yourself, she was told "this is a catholic country". That says absolutely nothing about the doctors beliefs.

    Catholicism is woven into the very fabric of this country and the constitution.

    The staff were constrained by the (lack of) legislation, not by their beliefs. For all you know the doctor could have been hindu / atheist / jedi.

    I think you may require some additional or actual reading.


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  • #42
    keith16
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭keith16


    stimpson wrote: »
    She was denied an abortion based on religious beliefs. Unless you can show me how a country can have beliefs, it was the religious beliefs of the staff that cost that woman her life.

    By the way, that is an absolutely outrageous thing to say. Completely unfounded and possibly libelous.


  • #43
    donegal_man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,234 ✭✭✭donegal_man


    I had to have an operation several years ago while living in Canada. I knew the surgeon involved to be a dedicated Christian as we both attended the same church (he a lot more actively than me) and his assistant to be an equally devout Muslim. The only thing that concerned me was that they were both highly qualified professionals who would do their job to the best of their considerable abilities, if they wanted to say a little prayer while they were to their elbows in my innards was neither here nor their so long as they applied what they probably regarded as their God given gifts at the same time.
    I'd be a heck of lot more worried by a well qualified atheist who also had an aroma therapist and a phrenologist on his / her staff


  • #44
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    Do you mean any religion or just christian? Because while you might have an idea that a doctor is muslim or hindu (dress) I'm not sure it would be that easy to tell when a person is christian or practising Jew (apart maybe from Hassidic)... unless you asked or they told you. And neither is likely. If they did start going on about praying etc (which I presume would be frowned upon by their employers) I'd just say thanks but that's not for me.
    asphalt_jungle wrote: »
    There have been numerous studies linking belief in God and intention to practice Medicine in a holistic manner. Too many to cite, so google them yourself. Would you allow yourself to be treated by a religious Doctor?
    Sure I would. Just because their faith has inspired them to study and practise medicine doesn't make a difference to their work performance. If anything their faith might cause them to strive extra hard.


  • #45
    stimpson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,711 ✭✭✭stimpson


    keith16 wrote: »
    You said it yourself, she was told "this is a catholic country". That says absolutely nothing about the doctors beliefs.

    Catholicism is woven into the very fabric of this country and the constitution.

    The staff were constrained by the (lack of) legislation, not by their beliefs. For all you know the doctor could have been hindu / atheist / jedi.

    I think you may require some additional or actual reading.

    I think you need to do some reading. Maybe start with the Constitution:
    44.2.2°: The State guarantees not to endow any religion.

    Then have a look at the judgement on the X Case
    The majority opinion (Finlay C.J., McCarthy, Egan and O'Flaherty J.J.) held that a woman had a right to an abortion under Article 40.3.3 if there was "a real and substantial risk" to her life.


  • #46
    OneArt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,910 ✭✭✭OneArt


    asphalt_jungle wrote: »
    You can't practice Medicine without a Degree, but you also cannot practice Medicine without a professional licence. Having a Degree is just the first hurdle. Religious belief should be factored into fitness to practice medicine. Controversial, perhaps. The logic is sound though. I cannot fathom how a medical practicioner can believe in religion. It's as absurd as an Honest Politician. Fundamentally incompatible ideologies, in both instances.

    "Religion" is not the one ideology. Which one are you referring to? All of them? Because many are vastly different.


  • #47
    keith16
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭keith16


    stimpson wrote: »
    I think you need to do some reading. Maybe start with the Constitution:



    Then have a look at the judgement on the X Case
    Nevertheless the constitution still contains a number of explicit religious references, such as in the preamble, the declaration made by the President, and the remaining text of Article 44.1, which reads:
    The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.

    Can you please now provide some evidence that Savita died because a doctor failed to act based on their individual beliefs?


  • #48
    stimpson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,711 ✭✭✭stimpson


    keith16 wrote: »
    Can you please now provide some evidence that Savita died because a doctor failed to act based on their individual beliefs?

    First show me where "Catholicism is woven into the very fabric of the constitution."

    And show me how a country can be a "Catholic country".


  • #49
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    asphalt_jungle wrote: »
    You can't practice Medicine without a Degree, but you also cannot practice Medicine without a professional licence. Having a Degree is just the first hurdle. Religious belief should be factored into fitness to practice medicine. Controversial, perhaps. The logic is sound though. I cannot fathom how a medical practicioner can believe in religion. It's as absurd as an Honest Politician. Fundamentally incompatible ideologies, in both instances.

    Actually, as numerous cases both here and in Britain indicate, all too often you can practice medicine WITHOUT a medical degree, so long as you bullsh!t you have one and get yourself licensed locally.
    Again, I repeat: I don't care what a doctor believes in so long as they are properly qualified from a legitimate educational establishment. Also, and I say this as an atheist myself, your post is the sort of ideological fascism that gives atheists a bad name.


  • #50
    keith16
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭keith16


    stimpson wrote: »
    First show me where "Catholicism is woven into the very fabric of the constitution."

    See my above post.
    And show me how a country can be a "Catholic country".

    Ireland is a demonstrably Catholic country.
    In 2011, 84.2% of the population identified themselves as Roman Catholic

    Like it or not, the catholic church and state in this country are explicitly linked in terms of education, civil rights and so on. Do you live under a rock or something?

    Now, are you even able to begin to defend your ridiculous thanks whoring comment that it was the individual beliefs of the doctors concerned that cost Savita her life?


  • #51
    Rasheed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭Rasheed


    I've had contact with a lot of the doctors in the last seven years as a nurse and as a patient.

    I have never met one that professed their religion to me or any patient in all those years.

    If you feel that you wouldn't like a religious doctor, you've obviously never been sick, or seen someone you love in pain. Because if you had, you wouldn't care what age, colour, sex, religion or fūcking hair colour the doctor had if they helped.


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  • #52
    stimpson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,711 ✭✭✭stimpson


    keith16 wrote: »
    See my above post.



    Ireland is a demonstrably Catholic country.



    Like it or not, the catholic church and state in this country are explicitly linked in terms of education, civil rights and so on. Do you live under a rock or something?

    Now, are you even able to begin to defend your ridiculous thanks whoring comment that it was the individual beliefs of the doctors concerned that cost Savita her life?

    Your post mentions religion. There is no mention of Catholicism in the constitution. Please show me where "Catholicism is woven into the very fabric of the constitution. "

    The constitution explicitly states that the State has no official religion.

    So why was she told she couldn't have an abortion for religious reasons, when the Supreme Court has upheld the right when there is a threat to the life of the mother?


  • #53
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    If it was a genuine medical practitioner and they were doing their job as expected to save life and cure injury - I would be a fool to refuse.

    If they were something like an unofficial nut-job like Scientologist Tom Cruise (who thinks he can save people in road accidents by just being a scientologist), no, the deluded quacks in thinking they are experts, can stay away.


  • #54
    keith16
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭keith16


    keith16 wrote: »

    Now, are you even able to begin to defend your ridiculous thanks whoring comment that it was the individual beliefs of the doctors concerned that cost Savita her life?
    stimpson wrote: »
    Your post mentions religion. There is no mention of Catholicism in the constitution. Please show me where "Catholicism is woven into the very fabric of the constitution. "

    The constitution explicitly states that the State has no official religion.

    So why was she told she couldn't have an abortion for religious reasons, when the Supreme Court has upheld the right when there is a threat to the life of the mother?

    Semantics. You're clutching at straws now.

    So you are now changing your position? Big difference between being told "it's for religious reasons" vs. "I'm not performing an abortion due to my individual religious beliefs". Which is it?


  • #55
    pontia
    Site Banned Posts: 385 ✭✭pontia


    i believe your an ar..hole


  • #56
    Madam_X
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    pontia wrote: »
    i believe your an ar..hole
    Even if they're referring to muslim doctors?


  • #57
    pontia
    Site Banned Posts: 385 ✭✭pontia


    prayer mats had to be put into the doctors rooms in james hospital to appease the muslim doctors,not so quick to accept crosses it seems though


  • #58
    stimpson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,711 ✭✭✭stimpson


    keith16 wrote: »
    Semantics. You're clutching at straws now.

    So you are now changing your position? Big difference between being told "it's for religious reasons" vs. "I'm not performing an abortion due to my individual religious beliefs". Which is it?

    I'm presenting facts. You're the one dealing in semantics and clutching at straws.

    I'm waiting for you to back up your statement that "Catholicism is woven into the very fabric of the constitution. "

    A simple quote will do.


  • #59
    Lelantos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Lelantos


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    If I saw something in the office referring to the Catholic church, and I was there for ladygarden issues... run far, far away.
    Especially since you're a man ;):D


  • #60
    3ndahalfof6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,184 ✭✭✭3ndahalfof6


    If he says, by the power of god you are healed, there is a good chance I might ask for a 2nd opinion.


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  • #61
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    To clarify my earlier point I wouldnt care what religion a medic is but I dont think a doctor should be allowed practice without accepting evolution. That would be just pushing it!


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