Do you expect people to defend their beliefs?

lazygal · 14-12-2012 5:14pm #1

I had an interesting conversation with a mate recently. She was raised Catholic and had a church wedding, but married an atheist and she's completely left the church, and she said the biggest decision was not baptising their children, reached after a lot of, to pardon the pun, soul searching. We talked about how Irish catholics, in particular, get quite defensive when asked if they support things like the Pope issuing decrees on the evils of gay marriage and IVF, if they truly believe in the host and if they don't use contraception. I've no beef if someone can say that they do follow the rules and regulations. But I'm sick of sitting in a church watching couples get married who've been living together, using birth control and might have children.

I've challenged (not in an aggressive way, in a curious, thoughtful way) some people on why they turn to the church and if they really believe the teaching. Most get quite defensive and pull out the old 'a few bad apples' or 'I believe in God and that, I don't like the institutional church' cards. The friend I referred to said she used to get quite defensive when she was asked if she believed some of the less fuzzy things Catholicism teaches and part of the reason she's no longer a believer is that when she analysed things, she realised the church had nothing of value for her anymore.

I've seen an older person challenged quite robustly about why they still go to mass, and the person got really defensive, again with the line about being part of a faith while still not liking Benny the Pope all that much. I got quite uncomfortable with this situation, because the person was of an age an inclination where they aren't going to stop going to Sunday mass. Quite possibly this person could be one of the 7% who don't even believe in God.

So my long winded intro is leading to this: Do you expect people to defend their beliefs? Or is it person and context dependent?

Banbh · 14-12-2012 6:23pm

I've observed that people can maintain an attachment to a belief while no longer believing themselves. Though some may wake up one morning and say 'that's all crap', (such as St Paul on the road to Damascus); for others it is a gradual shedding of old beliefs and adoption of new positions.
It's so long ago now that I can't remember but I think I spent some teenage years believing Jesus was a radical who challenged the wealthy Pharasees, which led me away from the Church. By degrees I came to believe that maybe he didn't have supernatural powers etc.
If I were challenged at any point in this evolution, I would have put up a fairly good argument and would not be happy with people who adopted a sneering tone.
But I confess that nowadays I enjoy the occasional sneer.
And as regards your question: I expect the people I now associate with to be able to defend their views.

Sycopat · 14-12-2012 6:57pm

I expect myself to be able to defend my beliefs, and people arguing on the internet to be able to defend their beliefs.

I expect people who are trying to change my beliefs to be more like their beliefs to be able to defend their beliefs, and argue in favour of them better than I can argue for my own views.

However, IRL, I'm generally happy to allow people to hold their own acknowledged beliefs, although I'll snarl a criticism if they get preachy or potentially dangerous.

Peregrinus · 14-12-2012 7:11pm

lazygal wrote: »

. . . I've seen an older person challenged quite robustly about why they still go to mass, and the person got really defensive, again with the line about being part of a faith while still not liking Benny the Pope all that much. I got quite uncomfortable with this situation, because the person was of an age an inclination where they aren't going to stop going to Sunday mass. Quite possibly this person could be one of the 7% who don't even believe in God.

So my long winded intro is leading to this: Do you expect people to defend their beliefs? Or is it person and context dependent?

From what you say, you're not really asking them to defend their beliefs, are you? You're asking them to defend their practices - why do they go to mass, have children baptised, etc, if they don't believe what the Catholic church teaches.

Daftendirekt · 14-12-2012 7:14pm

I don't generally care whether someone can defend their views or not, once they aren't looking to push them on me.

But it does irk me when people raise a topic, have their position challenged and immediately back down with something like "Well, that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it." Sure, you're entitled to your opinion but don't just throw it out there and then expect others to shy away from discussing it!

Morag · 14-12-2012 7:51pm

No I don't, I don't an exchange or a discussion but that is different then someone expecting me to defend my beliefs. They are mine, formed due to my personal subjective experiences, I don't expect anyone else to believe what I believe.

Esterhase · 14-12-2012 8:58pm

I find that a lot of cultural Catholics and vaguely religious people get defensive when questioned about their practices because they have been just going with the flow, haven't really thought about any of it properly, haven't tried to learn about the religion they were born into and don't want those facts exposed. These are the kind of people who come out with the 'I'm a Catholic but don't believe in transubstantiation' sort of nonsense.

I do think that everyone should be able to defend their beliefs, but whether or not I'd expect them to bother doing it depends on the individual concerned. Some people like to get into debates and defend their own point of view, others will just listen to what others have to say and move on. Some people clearly have very strong beliefs and I would expect strong defense from them, others simply don't care that much.

Mark Hamill · 14-12-2012 9:03pm

It depends on if the person does anything because of that belief.

If someone acts in a certain way because of a belief, then they should generally be able to defend it. They have presumably defended it to themselves, so explaining it to a third party shouldn't be an issue (not saying they need defend it every minute of every day, mind).

This is doubly true if someone expects everyone or anyone else to act according to their own beliefs.

I don't really see the issue with defending any belief though. If you strongly believe something, then to you, its not defending your belief, its explaining it (because you don't expect to be proven wrong). If its a weak belief, then you probably don't have much information on the subject, or its not that important to you, so any discussion should be treated informatively.

eyescreamcone · 14-12-2012 9:06pm

Are people who baptise their IVF babies hypocrites or just ostriches sticking their heads in the sand???
Please help me to understand this type of person.

lazygal · 14-12-2012 9:21pm

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Are people who baptise their IVF babies hypocrites or just ostriches sticking their heads in the sand???
Please help me to understand this type of person.

What if they have a man/woman who's in a civil partnership as a godparent?

I get the point about belief and practice. But a lot of the cultural catholics I know take part in the practice because of beliefs I don't think they examine too closely, they're just part of the fabric of how things work in Ireland.
Like a church wedding or a baptism-I pointed out the promise to raise children catholic to someone and they looked at me like I had two heads, as far as they were concerned people got married in church and they didn't know any different, so saw no need to question the ceremony they were taking part in. I also know a lot of people who are happy to be a godparent despite having no 'faith', but because its the practice in Ireland to have a christening because of long-held belief, they go along with the ceremony.

lynchieboy · 14-12-2012 9:52pm

Why is the **** always directed at catholics / christians? why not question muslims jews or buddists? its the same with comedians who make jokes about christians and catholics in particular they are afraid to joke about islam or jews! If someone is an atheist then so what, its the sniggering at people who have some kind of faith or belief and the trying to somehow "catch them out" that is off putting to me, I worked with a Jehovas witness a few years ago and his belief was so strong I almost envy him and not once did he try to push his views on anyone, a nicer fella you wouldnt meet and he respected everyone's views.

Sycopat · 14-12-2012 10:02pm

lynchieboy wrote: »

Why is the **** always directed at catholics / christians? why not question muslims jews or buddists? its the same with comedians who make jokes about christians and catholics in particular they are afraid to joke about islam or jews! If someone is an atheist then so what, its the sniggering at people who have some kind of faith or belief and the trying to somehow "catch them out" that is off putting to me, I worked with a Jehovas witness a few years ago and his belief was so strong I almost envy him and not once did he try to push his views on anyone, a nicer fella you wouldnt meet and he respected everyone's views.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPkuWf6IDZY#t=44s

Can be worth watching from the start, but it pretty much sums it up.

Zamboni · 14-12-2012 10:06pm

lynchieboy wrote: »

Why is the **** always directed at catholics / christians? why not question muslims jews or buddists? its the same with comedians who make jokes about christians and catholics in particular they are afraid to joke about islam or jews! If someone is an atheist then so what, its the sniggering at people who have some kind of faith or belief and the trying to somehow "catch them out" that is off putting to me, I worked with a Jehovas witness a few years ago and his belief was so strong I almost envy him and not once did he try to push his views on anyone, a nicer fella you wouldnt meet and he respected everyone's views.

Why did **** posts like this always leave out the Zoroastrians or the Baha'i?

Harrumph.

Sofaspud · 14-12-2012 10:08pm

lynchieboy wrote: »

Why is the **** always directed at catholics / christians? why not question muslims jews or buddists? its the same with comedians who make jokes about christians and catholics in particular they are afraid to joke about islam or jews! If someone is an atheist then so what, its the sniggering at people who have some kind of faith or belief and the trying to somehow "catch them out" that is off putting to me, I worked with a Jehovas witness a few years ago and his belief was so strong I almost envy him and not once did he try to push his views on anyone, a nicer fella you wouldnt meet and he respected everyone's views.

2 points, firstly, the "ie" in "boards.ie" stands for Ireland, not Israel. Ireland is a predominantly catholic country, and most of the people on this forum will likely have been raised catholic, or christian.

And the second point, this image nicked from the quotes thread sums up perfectly.

Morag · 14-12-2012 10:23pm

lynchieboy wrote: »

Why is the **** always directed at catholics / christians? why not question muslims jews or buddists?

Dominionism.

Cos the muslims, jews and buddhists, hindus ect don't expect the whole world to be bending the knee to their god (not that buddists have a god).

lynchieboy · 15-12-2012 12:58am

But atheism rejects the belief that there is any God why feel the need to single out christianity? I get a sense of self pity from some "atheists" as if the catholic church in particular is the cause of all problems in this country.

Esterhase · 15-12-2012 1:49am

Sofaspud wrote: »

Ireland is a predominantly catholic country, and most of the people on this forum will likely have been raised catholic, or christian.

The reason has already been explained to you here lynchieboy.

If we were in the Middle East we'd single out Islam.
If we were in India we'd single out Hinduism.
If we were in the old Roman republic we'd single out the old Roman gods.

But instead we're (most of us anyway) in Ireland, and that is why there is so much talk about Christianity, and Catholics in particular. More Christians in the area = more questions directed towards Christians. Fewer Muslims, Jews and Buddhists = fewer questions directed towards Muslims, Jews and Buddhists. The fact that we don't believe in any of the various gods doesn't have anything to do with atheists singling out Christianity.

Sofaspud · 15-12-2012 1:59am

And on that note, why do christians single out atheists?
Why not target their condescension, bemusement and bitterness towards others who don't believe in their own god, such as hindus or buddhists? Muslims and Jews don't believe in Jesus as being the son of god so why not try to "save" them too?
Shouldn't they be targetted even more than atheists? They believe in the same god so it should be even easier to prevent them from going to hell, why not argue with them about how they're wrong?

Bannasidhe · 15-12-2012 2:43am

Why do I single out the Catholic Church?
I don't - I focus on those who single out me and people like me for vilification and I fight back.

Today the Supreme leader of the Roman Catholic Church blessed a woman who is a powerful politician in her own country and is putting forward legislation that if enacted would result in homosexuality being punishable by death. I am a Lesbian - see where this is going?

Seems that according to the Pope when it comes to 'love the sinner - hate the sin' crimes against humanity are ok but loving a member of the same gender is a crime deserving of execution.

When over 80% of the people I share a country with claim to follow this man I take notice.

ShooterSF · 15-12-2012 5:28am

I only expect people to defend their beliefs when they claim them publicly to be true or base arguments on them.

George79 · 15-12-2012 6:11am

lazygal wrote: »

I had an interesting conversation with a mate recently. She was raised Catholic and had a church wedding, but married an atheist and she's completely left the church, and she said the biggest decision was not baptising their children, reached after a lot of, to pardon the pun, soul searching. We talked about how Irish catholics, in particular, get quite defensive when asked if they support things like the Pope issuing decrees on the evils of gay marriage and IVF, if they truly believe in the host and if they don't use contraception. I've no beef if someone can say that they do follow the rules and regulations. But I'm sick of sitting in a church watching couples get married who've been living together, using birth control and might have children.

I've challenged (not in an aggressive way, in a curious, thoughtful way) some people on why they turn to the church and if they really believe the teaching. Most get quite defensive and pull out the old 'a few bad apples' or 'I believe in God and that, I don't like the institutional church' cards. The friend I referred to said she used to get quite defensive when she was asked if she believed some of the less fuzzy things Catholicism teaches and part of the reason she's no longer a believer is that when she analysed things, she realised the church had nothing of value for her anymore.

I've seen an older person challenged quite robustly about why they still go to mass, and the person got really defensive, again with the line about being part of a faith while still not liking Benny the Pope all that much. I got quite uncomfortable with this situation, because the person was of an age an inclination where they aren't going to stop going to Sunday mass. Quite possibly this person could be one of the 7% who don't even believe in God.

So my long winded intro is leading to this: Do you expect people to defend their beliefs? Or is it person and context dependent?

They have every right to defend them but I wouldn't force anyone to "defend" their beliefs - that sounds a bit to like the Spanish Inquisition to me (a mild form of course). You imposing your beliefs on them is as bad as the other way round no?

What's important is that anyone challenging a belief or a faith in religion recognise that they are playing with different rules.

Faith is based on faith, not reason. In fact, someone's faith may exist in spite of reason, so proofs and things like that are completely irrelevant.

Expecting a 'reasonable' answer is not reasonable at all in the contexts of belief, faith and religion really so it's a dangerous thing to challenge...

oldrnwisr · 15-12-2012 9:06am

ShooterSF wrote: »

I only expect people to defend their beliefs when they claim them publicly to be true or base arguments on them.

+1. Couldn't agree more.

BTW, on a side note, if you are a christian and identify with Christian beliefs then I absolutely expect you to defend your beliefs. The thing is though, the book which you base your religion on also expects you to:

"But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect"

1 Peter 3:15

nozzferrahhtoo · 15-12-2012 10:38am

For me it is entirely dependant on how and where they espouse those beliefs. I have literally no problem at all with people who think there is a god. None. When those beliefs are rolled out in our halls of power, education or science however... or brought up as a platform on which to admonish us on subjects of sexuality, morality and ethics then I very much do expect people to defend them.

The analogy I often use is to imagine during a conversation someone produces a page chock full of statistics that support their position. You are where these statistics came from, who compiled them and how, and what the study group/sample was. They refuse to answer in any way and of those questions however but insist you acknowledge the figures and their relevance to the conversation.

That is how I feel as an "atheist" in such conversations. By trotting out this god entity which always just happens to support the very position the speaker them-self holds, they are essentially producing a sheet of statistics with no citation, no apparent source and no verifiability. They appear to have simply made up data to support their position in the absence of any actual data which supports their position.

My enemy is not religion or people of religion. My enemy is entirely unsubstantiated claims. And that covers everything from religion to homoeopathy, to ESP, to alien abductions for anal probing as a prelude to global invasion.

Dades · 15-12-2012 1:56pm

lynchieboy wrote: »

Why is the **** always directed at catholics / christians? why not question muslims jews or buddists?

Sofaspud wrote: »

2 points, firstly, the "ie" in "boards.ie" stands for Ireland, not Israel. Ireland is a predominantly catholic country, and most of the people on this forum will likely have been raised catholic, or christian.

lynchieboy wrote: »

But atheism rejects the belief that there is any God why feel the need to single out christianity? I get a sense of self pity from some "atheists" as if the catholic church in particular is the cause of all problems in this country.

We'd all appreciate if you read the answers you get before re-asking the question.

George79 · 15-12-2012 4:29pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

My enemy is not religion or people of religion. My enemy is entirely unsubstantiated claims. And that covers everything from religion to homoeopathy, to ESP, to alien abductions for anal probing as a prelude to global invasion.

Fair points but there is a problem; religion is all about the unsubstantiated stuff so something has to give.

I 100% agree that religion should have zero influence over state education etc but I do think that those who practice religion should be respected as well (so long as the practicing of their religion does not impact upon others freedoms/choices etc).

Can you see the problem here??

Nervous Wreck · 15-12-2012 5:52pm

George79 wrote: »

Fair points but there is a problem; religion is all about the unsubstantiated stuff so something has to give.

I 100% agree that religion should have zero influence over state education etc but I do think that those who practice religion should be respected as well (so long as the practicing of their religion does not impact upon others freedoms/choices etc).

Can you see the problem here??

"We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."

I think that about covers that part.

Rodin · 15-12-2012 5:56pm

I expect people to back up anything they give an opinion on.

George79 · 15-12-2012 6:29pm

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

"We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."

I think that about covers that part.

Fair enough. Very decent of you.

PopePalpatine · 15-12-2012 8:13pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Seems that according to the Pope when it comes to 'love the sinner - hate the sin' crimes against humanity are ok but loving a member of the same gender is a crime deserving of execution.

What do you expect from an ex-Hitlerjugend member? Yes, I understand he was forced to join, but aren't the Catholic Church champions of "listen to your conscience"?

Unless "listening to your conscience" destroys the Church's reputation.

Bannasidhe · 15-12-2012 8:44pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

What do you expect from an ex-Hitlerjugend member? Yes, I understand he was forced to join, but aren't the Catholic Church champions of "listen to your conscience"?

Unless "listening to your conscience" destroys the Church's reputation.

I expect him to behave exactly the way he behaves - what puzzles me is that so many people do not see the 'Blessed Father' and the organisation he heads for what it is. The evidence is there and stretches back centuries.

Daftendirekt · 15-12-2012 8:51pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Today the Supreme leader of the Roman Catholic Church blessed a woman who is a powerful politician in her own country and is putting forward legislation that if enacted would result in homosexuality being punishable by death. I am a Lesbian - see where this is going?

Any chance of a link? (Not doubting you, I'd just like to read it myself)

Do you expect people to defend their beliefs?

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