Feminist mob attempt to shut down talk on equality for males - MOD NOTE POST 10

iptba · 13-12-2012 05:25PM

I think some of the ideology around feminism is the source of some of the problems e.g. we live in a patriarchy, therefore things are by definition worse for women.

Madam_X · 13-12-2012 07:52PM

So the consensus is: all Muslims terrorists, all catholic priests molesters = wrong, if to be expected, but should be challenged.
All feminists and feminist ideology: man-hate = wrong and unfair but that's to be expected and life is unfair; the moderate ones just need to accept that's what's gonna happen if there are militant ones...?

I genuinely am not being snide when I say the above, but that's really what it looks like. If someone said all Muslims are terrorists, while it's to be expected, it should not be accepted.
Why not the same in this case?

Zulu wrote: »

You yourself are one, are you not Madam_X?.

No, an egalitarian like yourself. I still can't help being sickened though by some people misrepresenting all feminists and all feminist ideology, and equating it all with misandry, and telling women who have a discussion regarding anything at all that aggrieves women to get over it and they must be ugly etc. And any defence of women when they're being trashed for their looks or the behaviour of a minority of them as just "the feminists getting a bee in their bonnet" - as if only feminists would get annoyed by that stuff. In the same way as you would get pisses off Zulu if similar were directed at men's rights groups (and it happens) even though you identify more as an egalitarian than a men's rights activist.

I'm also seeing what looks like the beginnings of "inter men" conflict - the female equivalent being calling girls calling other girls bitches and sluts and scrutinising their looks etc - the term "white knight" being the male equivalent. And "man up", "grow a pair" etc.

nlgbbbblth · 13-12-2012 08:04PM

Does the video contain hipsters?

jaffacakesyum · 13-12-2012 08:18PM

py2006 wrote: »

On paper yes, but not always in practice unfortunately.

Not always in practice being the key here.

Muslims are not always in practice peaceful people but it's not acceptable to be "anti-Muslim" yet it is acceptable for many men (and women) to be "anti-feminist"

I think it's pretty disgusting if you're anti-feminist. Same way I think it's disgusting to be anti-masculinist. I guess the terminology here isn't great but basically I believe in equality for all and if a feminist movement is working towards that, brilliant. If a mens rights group is working towards that, brilliant. If a feminist group is doing things like in that video, I don't support that at all but it's not right to tar all feminists with the same brush.

Madam_X · 13-12-2012 09:33PM

Being anti fanatical feminist - obviously fair enough; but yeh, someone proclaiming to be anti any kind of feminism... makes me uncomfortable.

Zulu · 13-12-2012 09:41PM

Madam_X wrote: »

I genuinely am not being snide when I say the above, but that's really what it looks like.

And I'm not being snide when I say: look harder.

Why not the same in this case?

Well for a start, terrorism is a different matter, but if the Muslim religion was to do nothing about terrorism, if it didn't make efforts to denounce it and to combat it... ...but it does.

Like my point about the church (which you appeared to have overlooked) and what happens when it does little but ignore sex offenders.

No, an egalitarian like yourself.

Hummm, I was pretty sure you considered yourself a feminist. Maybe I'm getting you confused with someone else who does/did.

Zulu · 13-12-2012 09:45PM

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

I think it's pretty disgusting if you're anti-feminist.

Well I'm openly anti-feminist.

Frankly I find it disgusting that anyone would align themselves openly with an elitist group that seeks to progress the rights of a person based on their genitalia. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - there's no room for elitism in an egalitarian society.

ancapailldorcha · 13-12-2012 09:49PM

I'd describe myself as anti-feminist because I see it as an aggressive anti-male movement. I'm not saying that all feminists are like that or even that most of them are, it's just the only image I've seen of it. I've heard arguments for fair wages and opportunities for women (perfectly reasonable) but the idea that a child's father should be awarded custody is one they seem to find insulting given that the "mother is the natural caregiver".
Again, not running down the movement, just the faction I've encountered.

jaffacakesyum · 13-12-2012 10:04PM

Zulu wrote: »

Well I'm openly anti-feminist.

Frankly I find it disgusting that anyone would align themselves openly with an elitist group that seeks to progress the rights of a person based on their genitalia. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - there's no room for elitism in an egalitarian society.

Well, I find that pretty disgusting. I said it before and I'll say it again. Feminism = The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

I 100% support equality of the sexes.

The reason feminism is "progressing the rights of a person based on their genitalia" is because historically women have always had less rights than men.

Do you equally find mens rights groups disgusting because they are seeking to progress the rights based on their genitalia? Somehow I don't think you are quite as anti-masculinism as anti-feminism

jaffacakesyum · 13-12-2012 10:06PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'd describe myself as anti-feminist because I see it as an aggressive anti-male movement. I'm not saying that all feminists are like that or even that most of them are, it's just the only image I've seen of it. I've heard arguments for fair wages and opportunities for women (perfectly reasonable) but the idea that a child's father should be awarded custody is one they seem to find insulting given that the "mother is the natural caregiver".
Again, not running down the movement, just the faction I've encountered.

But then why can't you express the opinion that you are against aggressive, anti-male women who don't believe in equal rights for men and women? Why do you chose to say you are anti-feminist?

Once again, it's like me saying I'm anti-Muslim because I see it as an aggressive terrorist led movement. "Again, not running down the religion, just the faction I've encountered"

Jam · 13-12-2012 11:22PM

One of the more interesting things I've encountered, and I realize this is hardly a scientific study, is that it seems that most young women today don't see themselves as feminists. But rather more as egaltarians, which is something I'd much prefer to see. I could be projecting here however.

Jaffa, the crux of one of the arguments is how can any movement truly be about equality if it's founded on the perspective of one side? This is where I have to agree with Zulu on the rejection of feminism/maculisim/facism/communism/racism or nearly anything that ends in -ism, and go with a completely neutral egaltarianism. (Yes, I see this ends in -ism too.)

Perhaps this is where most moderate feminists could find new footing as the ideology is, by its own label, about equality of everybody and not just one interest group. I would hope it would be harder to hijack the label, perhaps naively so.

Madam_X · 13-12-2012 11:26PM

But say, Zulu, a group of women are discussing how it pisses them off the way a female politician's or scientist's or whatever's looks are sometimes torn to shreds even though it's irrelevant and she's not making a name or living for herself via her looks anyway... while one doesn't have to be a feminist to find that objectionable and it's just commonsense to find it annoying, and plenty of men would also, including yourself I'd bet, unpleasant behaviour is unpleasant behaviour... it still touches upon a not unreasonable form of feminist ideology. That's why I think it's such a pity when there's an outright dismissal of feminism as a whole. It can make not unfair points. And in that example, there's no attack on all men, just those being obnoxious. And some women too - there are times when women can be ruthless about other women's appearances.

I know it happens to men also.

py2006 · 13-12-2012 11:41PM

Madam_X wrote: »

But say, Zulu, a group of women are discussing how it pisses them off the way a female politician's or scientist's or whatever's looks are sometimes torn to shreds even though it's irrelevant and she's not making a name or living for herself via her looks anyway....

In my experience it is women who do this.

py2006 · 13-12-2012 11:42PM

If Feminism wants anything to do with egalitarianism it should not name itself after a particular gender.

Madam_X · 14-12-2012 12:01AM

py2006 wrote: »

In my experience it is women who do this.

Come on now, it is both. You know as well as I do there are some men who have to bring a woman's looks into everything and castigate her if she has the audacity not to be hot. I mean, you use the internet.

I guess there'll always be a clash when we cannot fully see the perspective of the opposite sex, which is fair enough; a degree of that cannot be helped.

awec · 14-12-2012 12:04AM

This post has been deleted.

Madam_X · 14-12-2012 12:15AM

awec wrote: »

This is true, but I don't see how this falls into the remit of feminism.

I would say it falls into the remit of many things, including feminism.

py2006 · 14-12-2012 12:16AM

Madam_X wrote: »

Come on now, it is both. You know as well as I do there are some men who have to bring a woman's looks into everything and castigate her if she has the audacity not to be hot. I mean, you use the internet.

I guess there'll always be a clash when we cannot fully see the perspective of the opposite sex, which is fair enough; a degree of that cannot be helped.

May be so but I don't think most men judge political candidates or CEO's based on their looks. I am sure some do. Men in general know nothing about womens hair, clothes, makeup, fake tan etc etc. I do hear women comment on this a lot.

LeeHoffmann · 14-12-2012 12:30AM

If Feminism Masculinism wants anything to do with egalitarianism it should not name itself after a particular gender.

do you agree?

I think it´s ridiculous to say that feminists or masculinists are anti-egalitarian - it´s essentially redefining those terms. There are lots of groups who suffer from human rights abuses, bigotry etc. Focusing on one problem or group at a time is generally more successful than trying to focus on every problem for every group all at once. I support womens rights, mens rights, LGBT rights, ethic minority rights etc. Supporting (for example) the LGBT community doesnt make me anti-heterosexual. Supporting the rights of ethnic minorities doesnt make me anti-Irish. Likewise, supporting womens rights doesnt make me anti-men and supporting mens rights doesnt make me anti-women.

*please ignore my poor punctuation - computer issues :mad:

ancapailldorcha · 14-12-2012 01:32AM

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

But then why can't you express the opinion that you are against aggressive, anti-male women who don't believe in equal rights for men and women? Why do you chose to say you are anti-feminist?

Because that's the face of the movement to a lot of men, myself included. It wasn't until just recently that I saw that there's more to it than that.

Madam_X · 14-12-2012 01:56AM

py2006 wrote: »

May be so but I don't think most men judge political candidates or CEO's based on their looks. I am sure some do. Men in general know nothing about womens hair, clothes, makeup, fake tan etc etc. I do hear women comment on this a lot.

Well sure, but you dont need to be an expert on make-up etc to rip apart a person based on their looks.

Anyway, misandry/misogyny - bad; reasonable men's rights/women's rights activists - good; egalitarianism - ideal.

Zulu · 14-12-2012 10:10AM

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

The reason feminism is "progressing the rights of a person based on their genitalia" is because historically women have always had less rights than men.

I understand where it comes from. My point is that you can not achieve a balance or an equality when you view the world through a biased lens.

When you choose to focus your attention on one particular sex, you do this to the detriment of the other.

Do you equally find mens rights groups disgusting because they are seeking to progress the rights based on their genitalia?

No, not "equally" I don't - in the way I don't find a corpse laid out in a funeral home equally as disgusting as a maggot ridden semi-decayed bloated cadaver.

While obvious comparisons can be made between feminism & whatever movement is starting on the male side, it's disingenuous to suggest they are the same. Feminism is infinitely more established. "Gender studies" at university level is a good example of this.

That said, I do take your point. Masculinism is doomed from the get go with the same pit falls as feminism. This is exactly why I've turned down opportunities to get involved with fledgling masculinism efforts here in Ireland. (Well that and time concerns, but I digress.) I do not believe masculinism can do anything to avoid turning into (at best) the mirror image of feminism, which will only serve to further divide people along gender lines - irregardless of the best efforts and intentions of those involved. And let me assure you, when that happens, my answer will be "yes"; it will equally disgust me.

There is no room for gender elitism in an equal society.

Madam_X wrote: »

But say, Zulu, a group of women are discussing how it pisses them off the way a female politician's or scientist's or whatever's looks are sometimes torn to shreds even though it's irrelevant and she's not making a name or living for herself via her looks anyway... while one doesn't have to be a feminist to find that objectionable and it's just commonsense to find it annoying, and plenty of men would also, including yourself I'd bet, unpleasant behaviour is unpleasant behaviour... it still touches upon a not unreasonable form of feminist ideology.

What?

If I understand you correctly: feminist ideology is against belittling women based solely on their looks, and so, because this is a good point, then feminism has some redeeming qualities, and I should consider this. Is that right?
Well I'd argue that when something is doing more harm than good, it needs to be stopped. I see feminism doing more harm than good right now in Ireland. Much more harm than good.

That's why I think it's such a pity when there's an outright dismissal of feminism as a whole.

Personally I think the real pity is that modern feminism has been allowed itself be represented in such a way as to destroy the name of those that when before.

Madam_X wrote: »

Anyway, misandry/misogyny - bad; reasonable men's rights/women's rights activists - good; egalitarianism - ideal.

I disagree.

misandry/misogyny - bad
reasonable men's rights/women's rights activists - naively doing more harm than good
egalitarianism - the only hope

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

I think it´s ridiculous to say that feminists or masculinists are anti-egalitarian - it´s essentially redefining those terms.

No it's not.
A feminist views the world through a polaroid lens.
A masculinist views the world through a polaroid lens.
Neither can see the complete picture focusing on one aspect.

There are lots of groups who suffer from human rights abuses, bigotry etc. Focusing on one problem or group at a time is generally more successful than trying to focus on every problem for every group all at once.

Well we don't know this. All we know is that the current system (different interest groups for different problems) isn't working so well. In particular, while feminism has had some great success, it wasn't without cost. Men are suffering appallingly. The system isn't working, you'll excuse me for looking for alternatives.

I support womens rights, mens rights, LGBT rights, ethic minority rights etc. Supporting (for example) the LGBT community doesnt make me anti-heterosexual.

Well that depends on how you support them.
Not meaning to go Goodwin, but a white power activist could claim to support human rights, but just "focus" on caucasian peoples. They could claim that they aren't anti-negroid, but do you honestly believe they are going to come up with an acceptable solution to racial hatred? I don't.

Inclusion is where the solution lies. We'll know equality when the woman in the video is hugging the guy who lost his friends, and not screaming in his face.

Reku · 14-12-2012 10:24AM

Madam_X wrote: »

Well sure, but you dont need to be an expert on make-up etc to rip apart a person based on their looks.

Anyway, misandry/misogyny - bad; reasonable men's rights/women's rights activists - good; egalitarianism - ideal.

Are you honestly trying to convince us you've never been around when women have done the same tearing apart based on looks regarding a male in the public eye (or even male colleague)?!?! Either you have your head in the sand or have just exhibited perfectly the sort of blind spot I complained about the misandrist feminists displaying.

We all judge others based upon appearance, they've even done studies that show given a choice between 2 candidates of equal merit people will usually pick the "more attractive" one for the job.

LeeHoffmann · 14-12-2012 11:08AM

No it's not.
A feminist views the world through a polaroid lens.
A masculinist views the world through a polaroid lens.
Neither can see the complete picture focusing on one aspect.

You focus on a small group of those people and decide all feminists/masculinists are the same. You completely ignore the feminists/masculinists who don´t neatly fit into the pigeon hole you´ve carved out for them. We define these two terms so differently and I don´t think either one of us is going to change our understanding of those terms. If we can´t even agree on the meaning of the terms, then it´s impossible to build any kind of discussion on that. We´re just going to keep contradicting each other´s definitions.

btw Nobody can ever see the whole picture. It´s not possible.

Zulu · 14-12-2012 11:25AM

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

You focus on a small group of those people and decide all feminists/masculinists are the same.

I don't but, whatever. :rolleyes:

You completely ignore the feminists/masculinists who don´t neatly fit into the pigeon hole you´ve carved out for them.

I don't, but again, whatever.

We define these two terms so differently

Well the problem here is that once anyone opposed to feminism comments on what it means, they are quickly advised that feminism has different flavors; that it means different things to different people. Bearing that in mind, I take it to mean this: (feminism, dictionary definition) advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men.

[However I believe that (in Ireland at least) its grown beyond that now. I don't see a genuine drive for "equality" anymore, but rather a lobby group looking to create a better society (in it's view) for women. Quotas are a perfect example of this. So is the very narrow blinkered view of the "pay gap".]

Now I've pinned my colours to the mast - care to do the same?

If we can´t even agree on the meaning of the terms, then it´s impossible to build any kind of discussion on that.

Maybe your right, but I'm willing to try. Otherwise it's simply a cop-out for feminsits to claim "different flavours" so no one can point out it's obvious flaws.

We´re just going to keep contradicting each other´s definitions.

Lets see your definition, and we'll take it from there.

btw Nobody can ever see the whole picture. It´s not possible.

Perhaps, but I'd rather make an effort. A person who attempts to consider the whole picture is more likely to succeed that someone who simply gives up.
Certainly no one ever will if they don blinkers and only consider a biased view.

LeeHoffmann · 14-12-2012 11:51AM

Zulu, there´s no need to take such a dismissive and aggressive tone. "but whatever" with a rolls eyes smiley - is a pretty childish and inflammatory response to somebody else´s points. I could have done the same to your previous post. Try to be respectful if you want me to engage with you.

I take it to mean this: advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men. However I believe that (in Ireland at least) its grown beyond that now. I don't see a genuine drive for "equality" anymore, but rather a lobby group looking to create a better society (in it's view) for women.

You´ve just contradicted yourself. You say you take it to mean the dictionary definition but in the next sentences you say that´s not what you believe it is. You want me to tell you what feminism means to me. I´m loathe to get into this again as I have done this to death in this forum and nobody ever seems to alter their way of thinking. However, I have always understood the terms feminism and masculinism to refer to the theory that the genders suffer from inequality and prejudice and the campaign to counter such inequality and prejudice. Feminism focuses on the inequality and prejudice women suffer. Masculinism focuses on the inequality and prejudice men suffer. Feminism and masculinism focus on one gender but that doesn´t mean they´re anti the other gender. (Some feminist/masculinist people might be, but feminism and masculinism per se are not, in my understanding of the terms).

Perhaps, but I'd rather make an effort. A person who attempts to consider the whole picture is more likely to succeed that someone who simply gives up.

I make an effort too. All reasonable people do. I´m just pointing out to you that it´s not possible to succeed so pointing your finger at somebody and sneering that they don´t see the whole picture is silly. Nobody does - or can.

S.L.F · 14-12-2012 11:59AM

Zulu wrote: »

Well I'm openly anti-feminist.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'd describe myself as anti-feminist

I am also an anti-feminist.

I am pro-equal rights for all both men and women.

I think woman have gotten everything they wanted and more in the last 40 years.

The family courts are a battle ground for the inequities between the sexes and it is men who have been losing for a long time.

I think really we have all been losing for a long time because of the darker side of the feminist agenda.

The thing that stuck me about the video was that the cops held back, if it had been men screaming abuse at women walking in the cops would have decked loads of them.

D'Agger · 14-12-2012 12:17PM

CdeC I've deleted your post - any more inflammatory remarks and generalizations about feminism in general and I'll go straight for bans rather than infractions - Dont' say you weren't warned lads!

Zulu · 14-12-2012 12:39PM

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Zulu, there´s no need to take such a dismissive and aggressive tone. "but whatever" with a rolls eyes smiley - is a pretty childish and inflammatory response to somebody else´s points.

Excuse me? LeeHoffmann you created a position for me; you told me what I mean, and you got it wrong. Do you honestly expect me to to accept that?
You accuse me of being dismissive, yet you create a false position for me and misrepresent my posts.
You accuse me of being inflammatory, yet you label me as childish and inflammatory when I treat your false position with the scorn it deserves.

I could have done the same to your previous post.

Instead you just ignored my points, created a false position for me, and then belittled my response as childish and inflammatory? Cop yourself on. A more appropriate response would have been "apologies, I must have picked you up wrong".

Try to be respectful if you want me to engage with you.

That cuts both ways.

You´ve just contradicted yourself. You say you take it to mean the dictionary definition but in the next sentences you say that´s not what you believe it is.

That was not my intention. I have said that I understand "feminist" to mean this: definition. That's the definition. Then I went on to say that "feminism" in Ireland no longer appears to strive for that. In Ireland it appears to stand for "a lobby group looking to create a better society (in it's view) for women." In fairness, I added this in a separate paragraph with square brackets to distinguish the difference.

One is the definition. The other is the reality. And if I'm being asked, I don't think that the reality is living up to the definition.

I have always understood the terms feminism and masculinism to refer to the theory that the genders suffer from inequality and prejudice and the campaign to counter such inequality and prejudice. Feminism focuses on the inequality and prejudice women suffer.

And I'd agree with this understanding, but I disagree that inequality and prejudice can be banished by biased thinking. (See my previous examples for a "why")

Feminism and masculinism focus on one gender but that doesn´t mean they´re anti the other gender.

With this I somewhat agree. I don't think feminism (on the whole) is anti-men. That said, I think it's guilty of idly standing by and watching (with some indifference) the problems faced by others. I think it peruses some goals that are in direct contrast to those of men and if gained will further diminish the rights of others. A case of some people being more equal that others.

]I´m just pointing out to you that it´s not possible to succeed

How do you know it's not possible?

so pointing your finger at somebody and sneering that they don´t see the whole picture is silly. Nobody does - or can.

Who's sneering? I'm simply saying, that whatever chance anyone has of considering the whole picture, they can not do so from a biased starting point. That's not sneering, that's the truth.

And finally, if we just take your last post and the language you use:

dismissive and aggressive tone
childish and inflammatory
pointing your finger at somebody and sneering

Apart from my use of "whatever :rolleyes:", my post did little to deserve the accusations above. This is a significant problem when discussing "feminism" - people are all too eager to shut-up-shop.
Criticism is met with hostility.

LeeHoffmann · 14-12-2012 12:44PM

Zulu, I did not create a position for you or misrepresent your posts. It´s very clear to me that you are looking for a fight. I am not in the mood for a flame war. Arguing with you will benefit neither of us. I´m not continuing this discussion

Feminist mob attempt to shut down talk on equality for males - MOD NOTE POST 10

Comments