Low carb, high (good) fats diet

rom · 12-12-2012 11:12pm #1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AODfiw3BUfg

http://www.discovery.co.za/email_za/mailers/pdfs/general/noakes.pdf
So what do you think ?
paleo/primal diet ?
dairy/no dairy ?

drquirky · 13-12-2012 10:32am

Like crossfit I see all this Paleo stuff as a passing fad but I did my undergrad degree in anthropology so it kind of interests me. So much of it is based on inaccurate, romanticised suppositions about the lifestyles of people in the "Paleo" period. Very very early humans were most likely more predominate foragers and would have eaten a plant based diet- tooth based evidence backs this up. The laughable part about the diet is that it glorifies the eating habits of our ancestors but fails to explain why most of them died before they were 30. While bashing the modern balanced food pyramid the Paleo people ignore evolutionary evidence. Human life spans have increased exponentially and the human race has thrived and a good amount of this is down to refining our diet over time and adapting it to our own specific environment. To quote:

“You simply do not see specific, trans-regional trends in human subsistence in the archaeological record. People can live off everything from whale blubber to seeds and grasses. You want to know what the ideal human diet consists of? Everything. Humans can and will eat everything, and we are remarkably successful not in spite of this fact, but because of it. Our adaptability is the hallmark of the human species. We’re not called omnivores for nothing.”(Dr. Britta Hoyes Paleoethnobotanist)

I guess my point is that the science behind the Paleo diet is pretty shaky at best-From an evolutionary perspective- humans have conquered the planet, increased their lifespan and bred at astonishing rates - and much of this on a grain based diet.

Quote from Dr. Karl Fenst a bioarcheologist from a speech called "That Papya isn't Paleo and Neither are You:

“Nearly every food item you currently eat today has been modified from its ancestral form, typically in a drastic way, ” he began. “The notion that we have not yet adapted to eat wheat, yet we have had sufficient time to adapt to kale or lentils is ridiculous. In fact, for most practitioners of the Paleo Diet, who are typically westerners, the majority of the food they consume has been available to their gene pool for less than five centuries. Tomatoes, peppers, squash, potatoes, avocados, pecans, cashews, and blueberries are all New World crops, and have only been on the dinner table of African and Eurasian populations for probably 10 generations of their evolutionary history. Europeans have been eating grain for the last 10,000 years; we’ve been eating sweet potatoes for less than 500. Yet the human body has seemingly adapted perfectly well to yams, let alone pineapple and sunflower seeds.”

Finally- Barbara King, an anthropologist offers this perspective

http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2011/10/27/141666659/the-paleo-diet-not-the-way-to-a-healthy-future

RayCun · 13-12-2012 10:54am

This article is great
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/fashion/10caveman.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
(note the article category)

walshb · 13-12-2012 1:31pm

The world is full of fads. A bit of everything would be my advice. We have evolved to allow us to ingest a bit of everything. Nice article, by the way.

eldiva · 13-12-2012 1:46pm

tunguska wrote: »

Looks fairly solid rom except for number 1 on your list. If you wanna lose wieght thats fine, but a low carb diet for a runner isnt the way to go. I mean the kenyans eat a high carb diet but are still super lean.
If you cut out all junk food, alcohol, fizzy drinks, processed food and eat clean, trust me, that alone will do the job. Im doing it myself and the body fat just drops off, even if you eat a high carb diet. Plus you feel amazing, you just dont realise how much of a detrimental effect junk food/drink has on your overall sense of weelbeing until you cut them out. So I wouldnt be too fanatical about carb cutting, just knock the processed stuff on the head and see what happens.

There is nothing wrong with a low carb-diet for running. You gain more energy by burning fat than carbs while running. By reducing carb intake and utilising more fat as a fuel source for your steady runs and only use carb as a food source for high intensity exercise ( have to be low GI carbs, so slow buring like sweet potatoe, brown grains), then you would see the weight drop off and an improvement in performance.

Oregano_State · 13-12-2012 1:54pm

eldiva wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with a low carb-diet for running. You gain more energy by burning fat than carbs while running. By reducing carb intake and utilising more fat as a fuel source for your steady runs and only use carb as a food source for high intensity exercise ( have to be low GI carbs, so slow buring like sweet potatoe, brown grains), then you would see the weight drop off and an improvement in performance.

I'd have to disagree with you there. During running your body primary uses its glycogen (carbohydrate based) stores in the muscles as an energy source, converting fat to energy is too slow to be of use as the primary source, although it does occur.

Fat is burned after your run to replenish your glycogen stores.

drquirky · 13-12-2012 2:00pm

eldiva wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with a low carb-diet for running. You gain more energy by burning fat than carbs while running. By reducing carb intake and utilising more fat as a fuel source for your steady runs and only use carb as a food source for high intensity exercise ( have to be low GI carbs, so slow buring like sweet potatoe, brown grains), then you would see the weight drop off and an improvement in performance.

Name one world or even national class runner who uses this approach...lol

RayCun · 13-12-2012 2:08pm

I have to say, much though I enjoy laughing at the 'caveman lifestyle' people above (and enjoy slagging my wife over paleo stuff

), I've gone much more in this direction in the last year. Bread is banned from the house so I eat much less of it (though I'll happily eat sandwiches outside the house), we eat less pasta, less rice, fewer potatoes, and more meat, more other vegetables, more nuts. Partly its just eating less processed food.
Does it work? I don't know, because how do you separate the effects of diet from the effects of training, and the effect of eating less bread from the effect of eating more fruit and nuts? Hasn't killed me yet anyway...

Enduro · 13-12-2012 2:46pm

drquirky wrote: »

Name one world or even national class runner who uses this approach...lol

The majority of the best ultrarunners I know do this to some extent. This would include a large proportion of the Irish internationals.

drquirky · 13-12-2012 2:48pm

Enduro wrote: »

The majority of the best ultrarunners I know do this to some extent. This would include a large proportion of the Irish internationals.

Again- I said world or national class runners- no offence but ultra is a novelty sport and does not fit into this definition....

Enduro · 13-12-2012 2:49pm

drquirky wrote: »

Again- I said world or national class runners- no offence but ultra is a novelty sport and does not fit into this definition....

:rolleyes: oh dear

dario28 · 13-12-2012 2:53pm

drquirky wrote: »

Name one world or even national class runner who uses this approach...lol

Barry Murray - been to his nutrition talks

Have a google , some of his slides are on the net

drquirky · 13-12-2012 2:58pm

dario28 wrote: »

Barry Murray - been to his nutrition talks

Have a google , some of his slides are on the net

Not sure how many times I'm going to have to repeat this but ULTRA IS HOBBY JOGGING OVER RIDICULOUSLY LONG DISTANCES. Show me a proper runner, running sub 2:20 maras or sub 14 5ks, whatever don't bother highlighting the "Ultra World Championships" simply because it is a fad in the same way that Paleo and crossfit are....

PaulieC · 13-12-2012 3:07pm

drquirky wrote: »

Not sure how many times I'm going to have to repeat this but ULTRA IS HOBBY JOGGING OVER RIDICULOUSLY LONG DISTANCES. Show me a proper runner, running sub 2:20 maras or sub 14 5ks, whatever don't bother highlighting the "Ultra World Championships" simply because it is a fad in the same way that Paleo and crossfit are....

dario28 · 13-12-2012 3:10pm

drquirky wrote: »

Not sure how many times I'm going to have to repeat this but ULTRA IS HOBBY JOGGING OVER RIDICULOUSLY LONG DISTANCES. Show me a proper runner, running sub 2:20 maras or sub 14 5ks, whatever don't bother highlighting the "Ultra World Championships" simply because it is a fad in the same way that Paleo and crossfit are....

A proper runner ....would ya ever get the fook

drquirky · 13-12-2012 3:15pm

cambo_gueno wrote: »

TBH not trolling here...I just don't have much time for Ultra- pretty sure I'm allowed to have an opinion

PaulieC · 13-12-2012 3:24pm

drquirky wrote: »

pretty sure I'm allowed to have an opinion

of course you are allowed have an opinion.

As is everyone else.

jeffontour · 13-12-2012 3:50pm

Enduro wrote: »

:rolleyes: oh dear

I'd crack open a big bucket of popcorn to watch this one unfold but I don't think it's paleo. So a bag of muck and tree bark will do instead.

Washed down with lashings of fruit juice!

Enduro · 13-12-2012 4:13pm

jeffontour wrote: »

I'd crack open a big bucket of popcorn to watch this one unfold

Not worth the effort, to be honest. The significance of ultrarunning to the thread so obvious that it just seems a bit trite to spell it out. (And it'd be a shame not to learn from other's wisdom and experience)

eldiva · 13-12-2012 5:03pm

Oregano_State wrote: »

I'd have to disagree with you there. During running your body primary uses its glycogen (carbohydrate based) stores in the muscles as an energy source, converting fat to energy is too slow to be of use as the primary source, although it does occur.

Fat is burned after your run to replenish your glycogen stores.

That is true. However any runner can train their body to utilise fat as a primary fuel source. By training in a stage of starvation (5-6 hours between last meal and training run or running firat thing in the morning before breakfast) there is little glycogen to fuel.the body therefore the body turns to.the fat stores. This can improve the cross-over concept of fuel stores.
However this priniciple can't be done high intensity sessions as the body does need the glycogen. It does sound extreme but its quite simple. It may not work for everyone but found it worked well for myself

eldiva · 13-12-2012 5:09pm

drquirky wrote: »

Name one world or even national class runner who uses this approach...lol

Where did I once mention world or national. I just said that a low carb diet can be used by runners throughout their training. And coaches like Bob Seebohar recommend this diet to their athletes. But I wouldn't expect you to know who he is

drquirky · 13-12-2012 6:43pm

eldiva wrote: »

Where did I once mention world or national. I just said that a low carb diet can be used by runners throughout their training. And coaches like Bob Seebohar recommend this diet to their athletes. But I wouldn't expect you to know who he is

WTF is that post all about- am I supposed to be impressed that you know what some d bag tri coach thinks? You have no idea who I know or don't (not that it matters at all). You are making my point for me- the "low carb" diet is only applicable for people who want to jog really long races- fair enough- I have plenty of respect for the endurance that they achieve I just don't really think its on par w/ serious running so to speak.

Saw your goals on another thread- if you can go sub 16 using a liow carb diet I'll tip my cap to you- but i'm betting you can't.

eldiva · 13-12-2012 6:54pm

drquirky wrote: »

WTF is that post all about- am I supposed to be impressed that you know what some d bag tri coach thinks? You have no idea who I know or don't (not that it matters at all). You are making my point for me- the "low carb" diet is only applicable for people who want to jog really long races- fair enough- I have plenty of respect for the endurance that they achieve I just don't really think its on par w/ serious running so to speak.

Saw your goals on another thread- if you can go sub 16 using a liow carb diet I'll tip my cap to you- but i'm betting you can't.

As ROM is doing endurance events from 5k to marathon a low-carb diet is applicable to his training. Yes it is more suited to the half marathon/marathon distance but it will benefit the cross-over point/transition for any runner from the 10k distance up regardless of how serious they are.

In relation to my goals, I can't see any reason why they can't be achieved using this diet. If i can't I'll will be the first person to say I got it wrong and that low-carb diet is pointless for 5k-10k runners

tunguska · 13-12-2012 7:45pm

eldiva wrote: »

That is true. However any runner can train their body to utilise fat as a primary fuel source. By training in a stage of starvation (5-6 hours between last meal and training run or running firat thing in the morning before breakfast) there is little glycogen to fuel.the body therefore the body turns to.the fat stores. This can improve the cross-over concept of fuel stores.
However this priniciple can't be done high intensity sessions as the body does need the glycogen. It does sound extreme but its quite simple. It may not work for everyone but found it worked well for myself

Theres a difference between training in a glycogen depleted state and using a low-carb diet. The kenyans would do their easy runs on empty first thing in the morning, but would replenish with carbs for the rest of the day. I train in a glycogen depleted state myself and I've found it does make a difference to performance....over distances longer than 10k. But to be honest anything below that it doesnt make a dent. Im in 10k training mode right now and the only reason I run on empty in the morning is for convienace, to save time. But glycogen depletion training doesnt automatically mean you're on a low carb diet.

Krusty_Clown · 13-12-2012 8:01pm

For my part, I don't understand what has changed. Pick up any endurance running book written over the last 20 years and all you will read is carbs, carbs, carbs. How has opinion changed so rapidly? What scientific evidence has been produced that suddenly suggests that everything written and every piece of advice given for the last number of years is flawed?

I understand that scientific research and technological advancements result in more accurate results over time, but we have gone from one extreme to the other, over the last 12 months, with some sports nutritionists espousing low carb diets, while others argue the opposite extreme. I'm not saying a low-carb diet is wrong (I will listen to reason once evidence is provided), but why the sudden turn-about? If you'll pardon the pun, it all seems a bit nuts. Perhaps it doesn't matter a damn what you eat, as long as you eat healthy food in the correct proportions.

robinph · 13-12-2012 9:52pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

... I don't understand what has changed...

New books published that need to be sold probably?

plodder · 13-12-2012 9:52pm

It's hard to see the point of low-carb diets for distances less than the marathon. Sure you can train the body to rely more on fat burning, but why do it, if you know there is enough glycogen to last the distance? As I understand it, you use more oxygen metabolising fat as compared with glycogen and for shorter distances VO2 is more likely to be the limiting factor.

pconn062 · 13-12-2012 9:54pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

For my part, I don't understand what has changed. Pick up any endurance running book written over the last 20 years and all you will read is carbs, carbs, carbs. How has opinion changed so rapidly? What scientific evidence has been produced that suddenly suggests that everything written and every piece of advice given for the last number of years is flawed?

I understand that scientific research and technological advancements result in more accurate results over time, but we have gone from one extreme to the other, over the last 12 months, with some sports nutritionists espousing low carb diets, while others argue the opposite extreme. I'm not saying a low-carb diet is wrong (I will listen to reason once evidence is provided), but why the sudden turn-about? If you'll pardon the pun, it all seems a bit nuts. Perhaps it doesn't matter a damn what you eat, as long as you eat healthy food in the correct proportions.

You can end the thread there. In truth every single person on this forum will perform to their best with a balanced, healthy diet.

menoscemo · 13-12-2012 10:06pm

pconn062 wrote: »

You can end the thread there. In truth every single person on this forum will perform to their best with a balanced, healthy diet.

No-one is going to disagree with that statement. The debate is over what is healthy (and balanced).

rom · 13-12-2012 10:13pm

robinph wrote: »

New books published that need to be sold probably?

I would say that sort of thing normally but Tim Noakes would be someone I would take some notice of. It is true though he does have a nutrition book coming out next year. I am currently reading Challenging Beliefs: Memoirs of a Career. He first published a paper on exercise associated Hyponatremia which has changed the advice of everyone in respect to hydration when it comes to endurance events. Now he does say that it does not work for everyone.

menoscemo · 13-12-2012 10:18pm

Rom you mentioned paleo diet in the other thread. I just watched the video and there is not mention of Paleo. Although there are similarities, Paleo diets are not necessarliy low carb. You can certainly have a paleo style diet that is moderate carbs....that might be more suited to a runner.
I can see the point of a very low carb diet for marathoners and ultra runners but not necessarily for Mile-Half marathon training where you are going to finish the race optimally using only glycogen.

Low carb, high (good) fats diet

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