Educational books for children as counterpoint to religious instruction

Iwannahurl · 06-12-2012 10:38am #1

I did a quick search and I don't think there has been a thread on this in a while.

My child has been unavoidably attending a local catholic school since the start of term this year. Given the lack of choice I have decided to put up with it, but I don't like the stuff he's learning all the same.

He asks all the usual questions kids do, and I'd like to be able to give him answers that give him a secular perspective that will help him to understand what he is being taught but without getting caught up in it.

Can anyone recommend any suitable books for that purpose?

kylith · 06-12-2012 11:07am

When I was a kid I loved encyclopaedias, especially of animals, these helped to teach me about evolution. You can get great books about prehistory, space, anything you like really. Get thee to thy local book shop, take the kid with you, and let them pick out a book on a subject they'd like to know more about.

Dades · 06-12-2012 11:11am

Are you talking about any subject in particular?

Surely the only subject kids do that has an alternative "secular" viewpoint is religion? In which case it's a matter of sitting down and letting the child know that what is being taught is not necessarily true.

Sarky · 06-12-2012 11:36am

Just keep them reading. Knowledge is anathema to religion, almost anything will do. Find out if he's interested in any particular area and get books on it, be it space, microbiology, geology or whatever. Comedy is excellent too, not just because religion is ripe for mockery, but a clever joke or writing style is great for developing a kid's ability to play with language in the same way. When my classmates in primary school were getting books on pony adventures from the visiting library bus, I was taking all the science books about ants, space and computer programming.

I say it a lot, but the Discworld series are pretty good at being fascinating reads and showing up religion for the farce it is.

Beruthiel · 06-12-2012 2:33pm

Sarky wrote: »

I say it a lot, but the Discworld series are pretty good at being fascinating reads and showing up religion for the farce it is.

Beat me to it.
The Discworld would be an epic place to start as a bed time story.

Iwannahurl · 06-12-2012 3:10pm

Dades wrote: »

Are you talking about any subject in particular?

Surely the only subject kids do that has an alternative "secular" viewpoint is religion? In which case it's a matter of sitting down and letting the child know that what is being taught is not necessarily true.

I posted in a bit of a hurry, so maybe I didn't express my thoughts properly.

Maybe I still can't!

TBH, what I'm thinking of is a book that would help answer 'religious' questions in a secular way.

He's coming home full of interesting questions about nature, the universe and 'creation' but inevitably they're all influenced by the religious -- specifically Catholic -- doctrine that he is being taught.

That's unavoidable, but I want to give him a perspective that reveals religion for what it is. In other words, he's going to get the dogma anyway, but if he has a larger 'philosophical' or 'humanist' understanding of what he is being taught, as opposed to mere denials on my part, then his learning will be all the richer.

That's my theory fwiw.

He's getting the science anyway, but books of that nature don't help to make sense of deep-rooted cultural attachment to religion etc. Maybe I need a book on comparative religions for junior infants? Something anthropological perhaps?

Iwannahurl · 06-12-2012 3:11pm

Sarky wrote: »

I say it a lot, but the Discworld series are pretty good at being fascinating reads and showing up religion for the farce it is.

I'll check that out, thanks.

Skrynesaver · 06-12-2012 3:16pm

I read Cromunist's deconversion story on free thought blogs this morning and my experience was similar, I was a voracious reader of myths and legends as a kid which allowed me (despite a very religious upbringing) make the connection between the Christian mythology and other cultures' foundation myths. Without a religious upbringing Iwannahurl Jr. should be well placed to realise it's just a set of stories

Morag · 06-12-2012 3:32pm

Sarky wrote: »

I say it a lot, but the Discworld series are pretty good at being fascinating reads and showing up religion for the farce it is.

Most pagany parents I know have their kids read the discworld

Beruthiel · 06-12-2012 3:49pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'll check that out, thanks.

Be sure to start with the first book.

Genghiz Cohen · 06-12-2012 3:57pm

Beruthiel wrote: »

Be sure to start with the first book.

I was actually about to recommend Faust Eric, it's fairly short and if will gauge is they both like the style.

Dades · 06-12-2012 5:12pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

He's coming home full of interesting questions about nature, the universe and 'creation' but inevitably they're all influenced by the religious -- specifically Catholic -- doctrine that he is being taught.

This might seem clichéd, and I'm loathe to do it, but Richard Dawkins' book The Magic of Reality is aimed at giving younger children a realistic view of life the universe and everything. I have the iPad app and it's very child-friendly, and NOT an attack on religion.

The important thing is not to re-educate kids, but ensure they keep an open mind and not take what they hear as truth without asking questions. And if someone ever answers them using the phrase "mysterious ways" - they are to disregard everything that preceded it.

Bannasidhe · 06-12-2012 6:33pm

My mother got Hermione (my 6 year old granddaughter) a CD and story books of Irish myths and Legends which has the Gaelic Gods in them - Dagda, Bridget, Morrigán etc and she loves them (some of the tales are fabulously blood thirsty:eek:) and is complaining there are no films or cartoons.
The interesting thing is that she understands that the people who created these stories believed in those Gods but that people today do not - they believe in different Gods but that there is no proof that any of these Gods existed. She worked this out for herself and has concluded that the Catholic God she learns about in school is no more likely to exist than the Dagda and if people can just replace belief in one God with belief in another God it makes the whole concept of A God meaningless.

meganj · 06-12-2012 7:04pm

Have to second the advice for reading myths. My Mother read Norse myths to me when I was in primary school and I went on to study Classics at 2nd level.

Myths are fantastic for children and as someone else said they come to the realisation that the modern gods/god are just about as real as the Norse/Greek/Egyptian gods.

Plus you know, Thor is awesome.

Galvasean · 06-12-2012 7:05pm

David Attenborough shows. The wonderment of nature is all a young mind needs.

Iwannahurl · 06-12-2012 7:09pm

Dades wrote: »

This might seem clichéd, and I'm loathe to do it, but Richard Dawkins' book The Magic of Reality is aimed at giving younger children a realistic view of life the universe and everything. I have the iPad app and it's very child-friendly, and NOT an attack on religion.

The important thing is not to re-educate kids, but ensure they keep an open mind and not take what they hear as truth without asking questions. And if someone ever answers them using the phrase "mysterious ways" - they are to disregard everything that preceded it.

I think "Iwannahurl Jr." (aged 5&1/4) is probably too young for Discworld. I'll try to remember its existence in due course, however.

Given that he is a mine of factoids, which he boasts about having discovered in his "six science books", the Magic of Reality sounds like a good bet.

The Wikipedia entry for MoR refers to its "quick retellings of historical creation myths that emerged as attempts to explain the origin of particular observed phenomena ... chosen from all across the world including Babylonian, Judeochristian, Aztec, Maori, Ancient Egyptian, Aboriginal, Nordic, Hellenic, Chinese, Japanese, and other traditions."

I think I'll be teaching him to question everything, though not my impeccable wisdom and authority of course...

Sarky · 06-12-2012 7:13pm

Galvasean wrote: »

David Attenborough shows. The wonderment of nature is all a young mind needs.

Lord knows when I was faced with a choice between a rambling story of which Israelite begat which Israelite, and a book of the world's most venomous creatures complete with exquisite close up pics of mandibles and sometimes even a festering wound, I went for the black widows, scorpions and giant centipedes every time.

Delirium · 06-12-2012 8:31pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I did a quick search and I don't think there has been a thread on this in a while.

My child has been unavoidably attending a local catholic school since the start of term this year. Given the lack of choice I have decided to put up with it, but I don't like the stuff he's learning all the same.

He asks all the usual questions kids do, and I'd like to be able to give him answers that give him a secular perspective that will help him to understand what he is being taught but without getting caught up in it.

Can anyone recommend any suitable books for that purpose?

Couldn't find the original series of books but managed to find something similar to what my dad got me when I began asking lots of questions about nature/space/technology etc.

This seems to be a close match. It's a large collection of frequently asked questions from kids. I loved the book I had as you could dip in and out of topics as the mood took you. Definitely the type of book I'd suggest for a young kid.

Another one here

pauldla · 13-12-2012 3:49pm

koth wrote: »

This seems to be a close match. It's a large collection of frequently asked questions from kids. I loved the book I had as you could dip in and out of topics as the mood took you. Definitely the type of book I'd suggest for a young kid.

Arrived yesterday. Pauldla jr is delighted, and immediately wants to read about mummys. We read the entry, and the word 'afterlife' comes up.

jr: What's afterlife?
me: Well, some people believe that, after you die, you go to another place.
thinks
jr: Where? Where is it?
me: I don't know.
thinks more
jr: It's either in the sky, or under the ground.
thinks even more
jr: And it's not under the ground. Do you remember the volcano book, Daddy? That has a picture of under the ground.
me: I do, and it does.
jr: And it's not in the sky. And space is after the sky.
thinks further, and then sits up, excited
jr: DOES THIS BOOK HAVE DINOSAURS!?
me: Let's have a look.

Thanks for the recommendation, koth!

Delirium · 13-12-2012 3:51pm

wonderful! really pleased paulda jr. likes it

Bannasidhe · 13-12-2012 3:59pm

pauldla wrote: »

Arrived yesterday. Pauldla jr is delighted, and immediately wants to read about mummys. We read the entry, and the word 'afterlife' comes up.

jr: What's afterlife?
me: Well, some people believe that, after you die, you go to another place.
thinks
jr: Where? Where is it?
me: I don't know.
thinks more
jr: It's either in the sky, or under the ground.
thinks even more
jr: And it's not under the ground. Do you remember the volcano book, Daddy? That has a picture of under the ground.
me: I do, and it does.
jr: And it's not in the sky. And space is after the sky.
thinks further, and then sits up, excited
jr: DOES THIS BOOK HAVE DINOSAURS!?
me: Let's have a look.

Thanks for the recommendation, koth!

Copy just ordered for 6 year old Hermione - she is going to love it.

Her current interest is geology and she is stretching the limits of my knowledge something chronic

pontia · 13-12-2012 4:03pm

strange,your the very people complaining about beliefs been foced on people but your doing the exact same thing to your kids

Delirium · 13-12-2012 4:04pm

pontia wrote: »

strange,your the very people complaining about beliefs been foced on people but your doing the exact same thing to your kids

yes, it's outrageous that people are buying books about the natural world for curious children. That's exactly like religious indoctrination. :rolleyes:

Bannasidhe · 13-12-2012 4:08pm

pontia wrote: »

strange,your the very people complaining about beliefs been foced on people but your doing the exact same thing to your kids

You would prefer I told Hermione that God made diamonds rather then describe the geological process?

pauldla · 13-12-2012 4:11pm

pontia wrote: »

strange,your the very people complaining about beliefs been foced on people but your doing the exact same thing to your kids

If my boy doesn't believe 'Inflammable Material' is the best debut album ever produced by an Irish band, I'll beat him to death. :mad:

Jimoslimos · 13-12-2012 4:17pm

No mention for the Chronicles of Narnia yet?:pac: I loved those as a child and turned out ok!

I'd pretty much reflect all that has been suggested here. Keep it broad and let your child be exposed to a wide range of reading literature, from factual to fantasy.

pontia · 13-12-2012 4:20pm

where did it say god created diamonds ? i was in a christian school,we were thought diamonds are created by pressurised carbon,not sure whats your point

Bannasidhe · 13-12-2012 4:25pm

pontia wrote: »

where did it say god created diamonds ? i was in a christian school,we were thought diamonds are created by pressurised carbon,no sure whats your point

Were you not taught in school that God made 'everything'?

I seem to recall a 'who made the world? God made the world' thing...therefore by that 'logic' God made diamonds...

My point is that it is not a 'belief' (such as 'God made the world' ) as you so sneeringly dropped in to accuse us of promoting- it is a proven and demonstrable fact. Big difference.

pontia · 13-12-2012 4:44pm

diamonds are created by a geographical process,stop been childish,seems to be nitpicking if anything

Bannasidhe · 13-12-2012 4:48pm

pontia wrote: »

strange,your the very people complaining about beliefs been foced on people but your doing the exact same thing to your kids

pontia wrote: »

diamonds are created by a geographical process,stop been childish,seems to be nitpicking if anything

I'm nitpicking and being childish said the person complaining about people buying books of facts for curious children and stating we are 'forcing our beliefs' on them? Lolz.

Delirium · 13-12-2012 4:51pm

pontia wrote: »

diamonds are created by a geographical process,stop been childish,seems to be nitpicking if anything

now would be a good to time to reflect on your hasty post that you entered the thread with

robindch · 13-12-2012 5:06pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My mother got Hermione (my 6 year old granddaughter) a CD and story books of Irish myths and Legends which has the Gaelic Gods in them - Dagda, Bridget, Morrigán etc and she loves them (some of the tales are fabulously blood thirsty [...]

Snowflake and I have been reading through a kid's version of the Ancient Greek legends recently -- splendidly bloodthirsty too -- just the kid of stuff that the religious would be up in arms about if it weren't for the fact that their own religious books are just as bad.

robindch · 13-12-2012 5:07pm

Jimoslimos wrote: »

No mention for the Chronicles of Narnia yet?

The first book isn't too bad, but the rest of them? Dreadful!

Bannasidhe · 13-12-2012 5:13pm

robindch wrote: »

Snowflake and I have been reading through a kid's version of the Ancient Greek legends recently -- splendidly bloodthirsty too -- just the kid of stuff that the religious would be up in arms about if it weren't for the fact that their own religious books are just as bad.

Kids do love a splendidly bloodthirsy tale

wp_rathead · 13-12-2012 5:50pm

Personally- I loved Aesop's Fables growing up (or any fables with morals in them)

My two favorites:

The Mice and the Bell wrote:

The Fable concerns a group of mice who debate plans to nullify the threat of a marauding cat. One of them proposes placing a bell around its neck, so that they are warned of its approach. The plan is applauded by the others, until one mouse asks who will volunteer to place the bell on the cat. All of them make excuses. The story is used to teach the wisdom of evaluating a plan not only on how desirable the outcome would be, but also on how it can be executed. It provides a moral lesson about the fundamental difference between ideas and their feasibility, and how this affects the value of a given plan.

The Scorpion and the Frog wrote:

The fable about a scorpion asking a frog to carry him across a river. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if it stung the frog, the frog would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog agrees and begins carrying the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion explains that this is simply its nature. The fable is used to illustrate the view that the behaviour of some creatures, or of some people, is irrepressible, no matter how they are treated and no matter what the consequences.

Jimoslimos · 13-12-2012 5:54pm

robindch wrote: »

The first book isn't too bad, but the rest of them? Dreadful!

Bannasidhe · 13-12-2012 5:57pm

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Swallows and Amazons for the win.

Sarky · 13-12-2012 6:44pm

I prefer the story where the scorpion replies "I can swim".

/Legend of the 5 Rings fan

Morag · 14-12-2012 12:15am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Swallows and Amazons for the win.

Duffers drown.

Bannasidhe · 14-12-2012 12:23am

Morag wrote: »

Duffers drown.

and pirates are ruthless.

Hotblack Desiato · 14-12-2012 2:20am

wprathead wrote: »

When asked why, the scorpion explains that this is simply its nature.

Hey, no summarising The Crying Game without spoilers.

Dades · 14-12-2012 11:21am

wprathead wrote: »

Personally- I loved Aesop's Fables growing up (or any fables with morals in them)

I've been telling a few of those recently.

The Scorpion and the Frog wrote:

The fable about a scorpion asking a frog to carry him across a river. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if it stung the frog, the frog would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog agrees and begins carrying the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion explains that this is simply its nature. The fable is used to illustrate the view that the behaviour of some creatures, or of some people, is irrepressible, no matter how they are treated and no matter what the consequences.

A great one that.

Alfred has something to say about that scorpion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1pFMS81aoc

Educational books for children as counterpoint to religious instruction

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