Loyalist mobs attacking Alliance Party offices and homes.

philologos · 12-12-2012 10:47AM

Promac wrote: »

Most likely because we're constantly being treated like a completely foreign country by an uncomfortably large percentage of the population of the Republic. There are people in this very thread referring to people from Northern Ireland as not Irish. Anyone born in the north is as Irish as anyone born in the south but to listen to some people on here you'd swear there was never a single island of Ireland and the north was glued on by William of Orange himself.

The area is governed under a different jurisdiction and the majority in Northern Ireland want to keep it that way.

It's their decision. It's none of my business as to what they decide to do. If you don't live in Northern Ireland it's none of yours either.

Ghandee · 12-12-2012 10:59AM

lugha wrote: »

They certainly are entitled to consider themselves Irish. So my question remains, why didn't they? Why did such a large number opt for Northern Irish rather than Irish?

Because that do not identify or consider their culture as British?

Maybe a few even spent a bit of time on the 'mainland' and became disillusioned when the harsh reality set in that 'over there' they were considered a paddy anyway?

donegal_road · 12-12-2012 11:09AM

back in the early 90's I was in college in Derry. I was the only member of the class which was from the South. The time of year came when we had to fill out application forms for degree courses in the UK and Ireland. There was a line on the forms where you had to declare your nationality, and I remember there being confusion from the rest of the class as to what to write down. I think it was the first time they had been asked to declare their nationality.

So a group of students approached the head of dept with this issue, and he explained to them that they could put in whatever they wanted, Irish, Northern Irish or British. From what I remember, the students from nationalist backgrounds stated they were Irish, those with unionist leanings stated they were British and the middle of the road people said they were Northern Irish.

everdead.ie · 12-12-2012 11:16AM

Jeffrey Donaldson, DUP member for Lagan Valley, was informed of the danger to him and his family by police yesterday but could not say where the warning came from.
Edwin Poots has also been threatened and he blamed dissident republicans opposed to his stance on the flying of the union flag.

That makes me physically sick.

Obviously I can't be a 100% sure who the Death threats are until the PSNI confirm it but whoever made them deserves to be put away.

12-12-2012 11:22AM

lugha wrote: »

They certainly are entitled to consider themselves Irish. So my question remains, why didn't they? Why did such a large number opt for Northern Irish rather than Irish?

I'm not telling them that they're a different kind of Irish, they in effect made this assertion by opting for Northern Irish, rather than just plain old, same as everyone else, Irish.

As far as national identity goes I'm Northern Irish, as Northern Ireland is the political state I was born in. However, in a cultural and ethnic sense I view myself as Irish and wholly support the idea of a united Ireland when the time is right. If a UI were to come into existence I'm sure I'd identify as Irish since NI would be an entity that would cease to exist.

Again, the question was on national identity not ethnicity. The two, as far as I'm concerned are different.

I don't know how the thread managed to get to this point.

My two cents on the whole flag issue is that if SF and the SDLP really follow the idea of being all inclusive, then the original vote should have been to remove it and fly on certain days. Total removal is not inclusive.
The Unionist reaction was idiotic, handing out those flyers only served to provoke and blow it out of proportion. I sincerely hope the decision stands and the fact that they also proposed changes at stormont to fly the flag more often under the guise of calming the rioters is desperate.
Nothing more should be said or done in regards flags at government buildings. A decision was made, get on with real issues like creating jobs, encouraging healthy growth of education etc.

gurramok · 12-12-2012 11:25AM

lugha wrote: »

But I think I am asking a reasonable question. Why, if Irish is Irish, did so many opt for Northern Irish on the census?

As you pointedly ignore the explanations given to you for the Northern Irish identity answer by Northern Nationalists on this thread and by implying that they have Unionist persuasions, next will you be asking for a copy of their census forms? :rolleyes:

gallag · 12-12-2012 11:30AM

Sf, sdlp and alliance boycotted a meeting about the flag issue yesterday.

Ghandee · 12-12-2012 11:49AM

gallag wrote: »

Sf, sdlp and alliance boycotted a meeting about the flag issue yesterday.

Maybe they were afraid of a lit Molotov cocktail being tossed into the room.

lugha · 12-12-2012 11:56AM

Ghandee wrote: »

Because that do not identify or consider their culture as British?

That would explain things if their only options were British or Northern Irish. But there was an “Irish” option but they elected not to use.

Ghandee wrote: »

Maybe a few even spent a bit of time on the 'mainland' and became disillusioned when the harsh reality set in that 'over there' they were considered a paddy anyway?

That would be a harsh lesson for unionists. It would appear that most who opted for Northern Irish were from the nationalists side of the house. (48% of people indicated British or British + *** as their identity, which I think would account for the bulk of unionists)

circadian wrote: »

As far as national identity goes I'm Northern Irish, as Northern Ireland is the political state I was born in. However, in a cultural and ethnic sense I view myself as Irish and wholly support the idea of a united Ireland when the time is right. If a UI were to come into existence I'm sure I'd identify as Irish since NI would be an entity that would cease to exist.

Fine, so for you too, as far as national identity goes, Northern Irish is a different type of Irish. But many nationalists insist that there is no distinction.

Northern Ireland remember, is the official name of the state. The reasons that republicans in the past and still do regrettably, refer to it as the 6 counties, is because to use the official name would amount to recognising the legitimacy of the border, which of course they did not do.

But of course it may be possible that current nationalists missed (or perhaps have forgotten) the significance of names, and the name “Northern Ireland” in particular.

circadian wrote: »

I don't know how the thread managed to get to this point.

The relevance is that the motivation for moves to limit the display of the union flag was to take account of the fact that almost half of the citizens of NI (apparently) would prefer a united Ireland. The census results rather undermine that assumption IMO.

And if we are going to start toning down displays of nationalism to take account of a minority who do not identify with the state, we might ask when are we going to start taking account of the substantial non-national population in the South?

Indeed what’s the plan post a united Ireland? Certainly, some republicans accept that there will need to be considerable compromise (new flag, anthem etc.) But quite a few of them in the past have adopted a position very similar to that being adopted by unionists now. i.e. “This is [will be] an Irish state, if you want to be something else, go somewhere else.”

gallag · 12-12-2012 12:04PM

Mabey they were still in shock that nearly twice as many people in Ulster are British than Irish. I think the time is right to push for Ireland to rejoin the u.k. p.s biggest drop in unemployment in a decade announced today in the u.k. any wonder support for a UI is at an all time low. In fairness if Ireland kicked out their corrupt politicians and stoped being Europe's whipping boy there is no reason why they would not be successful on their own, they would just be better as part of the u.k.

Seaneh · 12-12-2012 12:06PM

gallag wrote: »

Mabey they were still in shock that nearly twice as many people in Ulster are British than Irish. I think the time is right to push for Ireland to rejoin the u.k. p.s biggest drop in unemployment in a decade announced today in the u.k. any wonder support for a UI is at an all time low. In fairness if Ireland kicked out their corrupt politicians and stoped being Europe's whipping boy there is no reason why they would not be successful on their own, they would just be better as part of the u.k.

Nice attempt at trolling there.

Ghandee · 12-12-2012 12:11PM

Donegal, Monaghan, and Cavan are also in Ulster too.

Did you miss the memo?

Corrupt Irish politicians? I'm with you on that one though.

gallag · 12-12-2012 12:31PM

Seaneh wrote: »

Nice attempt at trolling there.

It's not trolling, I would imagine there would be roughly the same support for Ireland to rejoin the u.k as there is for N.I to become part of Ireland for the first time. I believe a lot of people put quality of life ahead of nationalistic bull.

awec · 12-12-2012 12:34PM

circadian wrote: »

As far as national identity goes I'm Northern Irish, as Northern Ireland is the political state I was born in. However, in a cultural and ethnic sense I view myself as Irish and wholly support the idea of a united Ireland when the time is right. If a UI were to come into existence I'm sure I'd identify as Irish since NI would be an entity that would cease to exist.

Again, the question was on national identity not ethnicity. The two, as far as I'm concerned are different.

I don't know how the thread managed to get to this point.

My two cents on the whole flag issue is that if SF and the SDLP really follow the idea of being all inclusive, then the original vote should have been to remove it and fly on certain days. Total removal is not inclusive.
The Unionist reaction was idiotic, handing out those flyers only served to provoke and blow it out of proportion. I sincerely hope the decision stands and the fact that they also proposed changes at stormont to fly the flag more often under the guise of calming the rioters is desperate.
Nothing more should be said or done in regards flags at government buildings. A decision was made, get on with real issues like creating jobs, encouraging healthy growth of education etc.

But here is where the problem is, issues like jobs, education and economic growth do not get political parties in the north votes.

It's a single issue state with single issue voters. Politicians in the north are useless because all you have to do is stick on a green white and orange or a red white and blue ribbon and say you're pro or anti union. There is no real debate of the real issues. If a canvasser came to your door and you asked about their economic policy they'd be stumped.

Stormont is a bit useless too. The way it's set up makes it hard to get anything done. There is no opposition.

Ghandee · 12-12-2012 12:45PM

awec wrote: »

But here is where the problem is, issues like jobs, education and economic growth do not get political parties in the north votes.

It's a single issue state with single issue voters. Politicians in the north are useless because all you have to do is stick on a green white and orange or a red white and blue ribbon and say you're pro or anti union. There is no real debate of the real issues. If a canvasser came to your door and you asked about their economic policy they'd be stumped.

Stormont is a bit useless too. The way it's set up makes it hard to get anything done. There is no opposition.

Jesus.

John Hume might disagree with your sentiments there.

citytillidie · 12-12-2012 12:45PM

gallag wrote: »

Mabey they were still in shock that nearly twice as many people in Ulster are British than Irish. I think the time is right to push for Ireland to rejoin the u.k. p.s biggest drop in unemployment in a decade announced today in the u.k. any wonder support for a UI is at an all time low. In fairness if Ireland kicked out their corrupt politicians and stoped being Europe's whipping boy there is no reason why they would not be successful on their own, they would just be better as part of the u.k.

Wait until the next unemployment figures are released and it will be up again after the Christmas staff for large retail stores are let go.

gurramok · 12-12-2012 12:47PM

gallag wrote: »

It's not trolling, I would imagine there would be roughly the same support for Ireland to rejoin the u.k as there is for N.I to become part of Ireland for the first time. I believe a lot of people put quality of life ahead of nationalistic bull.

Your imagination at work or do you have concrete evidence?

listermint · 12-12-2012 12:53PM

gallag wrote: »

It's not trolling, I would imagine there would be roughly the same support for Ireland to rejoin the u.k as there is for N.I to become part of Ireland for the first time

ROFL what did you draw your rough figures on the back of a Mc donalds fries carton ?

Also Northern Ireland was part of ireland so it wouldnt be the first time (so to speak)

Dodge · 12-12-2012 01:47PM

As if the PSNi hadn't enough to be worrying about

The_Kew_Tour · 12-12-2012 01:50PM

Dodge wrote: »

As if the PSNi hadn't enough to be worrying about

:pac::pac::pac:

12-12-2012 01:59PM

lugha wrote: »

But of course it may be possible that current nationalists missed (or perhaps have forgotten) the significance of names, and the name “Northern Ireland” in particular.

The relevance is that the motivation for moves to limit the display of the union flag was to take account of the fact that almost half of the citizens of NI (apparently) would prefer a united Ireland. The census results rather undermine that assumption IMO.

What significance does the name Northern Ireland carry then? I think it has a different meaning to different people.

Just because my nationality is Northern Irish it doesn't mean that I have an affinity with the union flag (nor the flag of Northern Ireland/Tricolour for the record). The two are not mutually interchangeable, that is too simplistic.

As someone else has mentioned the more moderate nationalists are likely to see themselves as northern Irish, this does not necessarily mean that they automatically adhere to the same political idealologies as someone from a unionist point of view who declares themselves as northern Irish. You are over simplifying it (or trolling).

Also the census figure being bandied about are for NI on the whole, Belfast was 35% British, 31% Irish and 18% Northern Irish which shows there may well be slightly more nationalists in Belfast if Northern Irish is made up of mostly moderate nationalists.

Remember that it was Belfast City Council that took the vote and it appears that it does reflect a slight nationalist majority.

edgecutter · 12-12-2012 02:20PM

gallag wrote: »

It's not trolling, I would imagine there would be roughly the same support for Ireland to rejoin the u.k as there is for N.I to become part of Ireland for the first time. I believe a lot of people put quality of life ahead of nationalistic bull.

Not a chance this would happen.

Britain is just as fecked as we are. They have huge debt and are not getting their house in order like we are.

Besides, many Irish fought long and hard for a free Ireland. There is no chance that the people in Ireland will vote to join the uk.

awec · 12-12-2012 02:21PM

Ghandee wrote: »

Jesus.

John Hume might disagree with your sentiments there.

He might, but that's how it is.

h2005 · 12-12-2012 02:22PM

Has anyone got a link as to how often the Union flag flies over other U.K. cities city halls?

upstairs for coffee · 12-12-2012 02:33PM

This happening just as the Finucane news comes out. There are no redeeming parts whatsoever from this calamity.

mcc1 · 12-12-2012 02:41PM

h2005 wrote: »

Has anyone got a link as to how often the Union flag flies over other U.K. cities city halls?

Flys everyday of the year in all the capitals.

12-12-2012 02:44PM

mcc1 wrote: »

Flys everyday of the year in all the capitals.

Got a link?

Dodge · 12-12-2012 02:48PM

Not ideal but wiki gives a list of flag days for public offices

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack#Flag_days

Madam · 12-12-2012 02:49PM

mcc1 wrote: »

Flys everyday of the year in all the capitals.

Not in Edinburgh it doesn't.

Seaneh · 12-12-2012 02:53PM

Or Cardiff. The flag flying on the Cardiff City Hall is this.

Loyalist mobs attacking Alliance Party offices and homes.

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