Loyalist mobs attacking Alliance Party offices and homes.

Edg3 · 11-12-2012 10:58PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

What?

Scotch people are from Scotchland.

:pac:

Isnt that where scotch tape comes from to??

Edg3 · 11-12-2012 11:00PM

Blay wrote: »

Is there even support in the Republic for it anymore? Looking at the news of the rioting and the general frequency with which it happens in the North...I would question whether people here want to be any party to that. No slight against people from the North, I'm aware most are peaceful but the few seem to make themselves very vocal in the North.

I don't know if anyone has asked this in the thread...quite possible they have.

Personally I dont know, on a grand level at least. Of the few people Ive spoken to on the Irish say let them keep it as we'd just ruin it.

fasttalkerchat · 11-12-2012 11:06PM

philologos wrote: »

Why is it such a big deal that the Union Jack come down from City Hall?

I'm not advocating the violence, I think it is plainly wrong, and in a way this has shown there still to be far more loyalist bigotry than perhaps was previously thought, but I honestly don't get the rationale for taking the flag down. Why does it matter? Why care?

One flag represents one side the other flag represents the other.
The flag being there meant that the city hall didn't look like a neutral ground so to speak.

Edg3 · 11-12-2012 11:07PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

One flag represents one side the other flag represents the other.
The flag being there meant that the city hall didn't look like a neutral ground so to speak.

Is the Irish flag flown there to? Stupid question but its been so long since Ive been up there I honestly dont know. I see your point though, its a neutral point.

philologos · 11-12-2012 11:09PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

One flag represents one side the other flag represents the other.
The flag being there meant that the city hall didn't look like a neutral ground so to speak.

Again, I don't see how acknowledging reality (most people in Northern Ireland want to remain in the UK and it seems this is the case on both sides) isn't being neutral. Belfast is in UK territory.

Seaneh · 11-12-2012 11:10PM

Edg3 wrote: »

Is the Irish flag flown there to? Stupid question but its been so long since Ive been up there I honestly dont know. I see your point though, its a neutral point.

No, the Tri-colour isn't flown on any government buildings in the north.

Rodin · 11-12-2012 11:13PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Britain is the land mass to the west of Ireland consisting of England Wales and Scotchland. Northern Ireland is under devolved UK administration.

Seriously??

Fratton Fred · 11-12-2012 11:13PM

Border-Rat wrote: »

The majority in the South want a United Ireland and the majority of Catholics in the North have given the mandate to a party whose sole raison d'être is to end partition. Sinn Fein even has a private army still in active existence incase things don't go their way. People who vote for them know this, the only reason they didn't vote for them in the 90's was because the UVF and UDA murdered anyone who tried to. And on the economics of partition, the strategical benefits outweigh the tactical shortfalls.

Michael Collins was the first to point out the obvious - Ireland will always be richer pulling its resources as 32 Counties than it will under inorganic partition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOocyQq95Zc

Seaneh · 11-12-2012 11:17PM

Rodin wrote: »

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Britain is the land mass to the east of Ireland consisting of England Wales and Scotchland. Northern Ireland is under devolved UK administration.

Seriously??

Erm obviously...

fasttalkerchat · 11-12-2012 11:18PM

Edg3 wrote: »

Is the Irish flag flown there to? Stupid question but its been so long since Ive been up there I honestly dont know. I see your point though, its a neutral point.

No it isn't. And nor should it. The tricolour is a republican flag so represents only the other side. There is no need for flags.

fasttalkerchat · 11-12-2012 11:19PM

Seaneh wrote: »

Erm obviously...

He wrote West instead of East.

fasttalkerchat · 11-12-2012 11:21PM

philologos wrote: »

Again, I don't see how acknowledging reality (most people in Northern Ireland want to remain in the UK and it seems this is the case on both sides) isn't being neutral. Belfast is in UK territory.

I'm sure even as an outsider you would be aware that that "reality" would be a contentious one. Nearly half of Catholics are happy for things to remain how they are in exchange for peace and economic safety. That does not mean they agree to having it shoved in their faces.

philologos · 11-12-2012 11:23PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I'm sure even as an outsider you would be aware that that "reality" would be a contentious one. Nearly half of Catholics are happy for things to remain how they are in exchange for peace and economic safety. That does not mean they agree to having it shoved in their faces.

I don't think acknowledging that Belfast is a city in the UK is shoving it in anybody's face though.

I guess I'm an outsider insofar as I'm an Irish person looking in to Northern Ireland political life.

Chuck Stone · 11-12-2012 11:25PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Britain is the land mass to the west of Ireland consisting of England Wales and Scotchland. Northern Ireland is under devolved UK administration.

I made a mistake here lads. I meant east instead of west. This has been kindly pointed out to me by a very clever and observant contributor.

My sincerest apologies to anyone who drove the wrong way to get a ferry to Britain on my erroneous information.

Carlos_Ray · 11-12-2012 11:25PM

philologos wrote: »

Again, I don't see how acknowledging reality (most people in Northern Ireland want to remain in the UK and it seems this is the case on both sides) isn't being neutral. Belfast is in UK territory.

Because many think that the "reality" of Belfast being part of the UK was built on a unjust foundation and therefore should not be legitimately recognised.

The fact is, if democracy was respected and adhered to in the first place, Northern Ireland would not have been created. The peace process acknowledged that the people living there were in a unique position, much different to people in Britain or In the Republic. The Good Friday agreement aimed to address this issue. At first the unionists appeared to subscribe to this idea but when democratic votes ( like the latest one) don't go their way, they throw their toys out of the pram. Years of Irish oppression has created a breed of unionists who are not used to not getting their own way.

A recent report suggested that most people in Ireland want a united Ireland. However, many don't want it at the moment because they fear the cost of controlling rioting and violent unionists will be too great especially in the current climate. It sounds a little cold, but before Ireland is united, the unionists need to be out bred.

Edg3 · 11-12-2012 11:26PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I made a mistake here lads. I meant east instead of west. This has been kindly pointed out to me by a very clever and observant contributor.

My sincerest apologies to anyone who drove the wrong way to get a ferry to Britain on my erroneous information.

If Apple can make mistakes so can you

Also since you were arguing my stupid point it makes everything invalid due to the sheer level of stupidity on my part.

philologos · 11-12-2012 11:31PM

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

Because many think that the "reality" of Belfast being part of the UK was built on a unjust foundation and therefore should not be legitimately recognised.

The majority of people in Northern Ireland evidently don't. That's my point. Decisions concerning whether NI will be united to the Republic depend on a majority vote.

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

The fact is, if democracy was respected and adhered to in the first place, Northern Ireland would not have been created. The peace process acknowledged that the people living there were in a unique position, much different to people in Britain or In the Republic. The Good Friday agreement aimed to address this issue. At first the unionists appeared to subscribe to this idea but when democratic votes ( like the latest one) don't go their way, they throw their toys out of the pram. Years of Irish oppression has created a breed of unionists who are not used to getting their own way.

Neither would many other places such as Kosovo (which was also inhabited via migration). Yet we have to deal with Ireland as it is now, much as we have to deal with Kosovo as it is now.

By the by, I don't think migration is of necessity a bad thing. I do agree that exerting political control over what wasn't theirs is obviously going to be politically contentious, but we live in the Ireland of 2012 rather than the Ireland of the 17th century.

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

A recent report suggested that most people in Ireland want a united Ireland. However, many don't want it at the moment because they fear the cost of controlling rioting and violent unionists will be too great especially in the current climate. It sounds a little cold, but before Ireland is united, the unionists need to be out bred.

Most people in the Republic.

By the by, you'll have a hard job outbreeding those who support the union in Northern Ireland because it contains a lot of people of a Catholic background.

Only 25% identify as Irish only according to today's census result and there are 45% Catholics.

Rodin · 11-12-2012 11:34PM

Seaneh wrote: »

Erm obviously...

The original post has been edited.

It originally said WEST of Ireland

Seaneh · 11-12-2012 11:35PM

your understanding of the census statistics is incredibly flawed.

woodoo · 11-12-2012 11:36PM

citytillidie wrote: »

I am from Derry, see myself as Northern Irish and travel on an Irish passport.

Can you offer some insight to the Northern Irish identity rather than British or Irish. Why do you choose it over irish or british?

Chuck Stone · 11-12-2012 11:38PM

Rodin wrote: »

The original post has been edited.

Chuck Stone is a stupid cunt

I didn't edit it and you don't have to be so rude.

citytillidie · 11-12-2012 11:40PM

philologos wrote: »

The majority of people in Northern Ireland evidently don't. That's my point. Decisions concerning whether NI will be united to the Republic depend on a majority vote.

Neither would many other places such as Kosovo (which was also inhabited via migration). Yet we have to deal with Ireland as it is now, much as we have to deal with Kosovo as it is now.

By the by, I don't think migration is of necessity a bad thing. I do agree that exerting political control over what wasn't theirs is obviously going to be politically contentious, but we live in the Ireland of 2012 rather than the Ireland of the 17th century.

Most people in the Republic.

By the by, you'll have a hard job outbreeding those who support the union in Northern Ireland because it contains a lot of people of a Catholic background.

Only 25% identify as Irish only according to today's census result and there are 45% Catholics.

So since i am in the Northern Irish category i guess i am not Irish even though i travel on an Irish passport and was brought in as Catholic.

Its not all black and white as a census says

fasttalkerchat · 11-12-2012 11:45PM

philologos wrote: »

I don't think acknowledging that Belfast is a city in the UK is shoving it in anybody's face though.

I guess I'm an outsider insofar as I'm an Irish person looking in to Northern Ireland political life.

Fair enough I assumed you were English.
Flags are used by loyalists to mark territory. Occasionally they try to put flags on Nationalist streets or on a church or school in an attempt to wind up the other side.

citytillidie · 11-12-2012 11:49PM

woodoo wrote: »

Can you offer some insight to the Northern Irish identity rather than British or Irish. Why do you choose it over irish or british?

I am proud to be from Derry, Derry is in Northern Ireland nothing I can change about that, I was brought up with both Catholic and Protestant friends.

Northern Irish seems very neutral which is they way i was brought up too.

Carlos_Ray · 11-12-2012 11:49PM

philologos wrote: »

The majority of people in Northern Ireland evidently don't. That's my point. Decisions concerning whether NI will be united to the Republic depend on a majority vote.

Exactly, despite the fact that the state was created in a undemocratic manner. We , on this island, agreed to support the Good Friday Agreement and support the will of the majority as long as the rights of the minority to maintain their culture and nationality were respected. We agreed that despite the past, democracy would decide the future of Northern Ireland. The recent vote was democratic and didn't go the way of the Unionists, that's significant. More significant than a shoddy poll that suggests only 25% of people in the north call themselves Irish. I'm from Belfast and can assure you that's boll0x. Many unionists even refer to themselves as Irish (and British).

philologos wrote: »

Neither would many other places such as Kosovo (which was also inhabited via migration). Yet we have to deal with Ireland as it is now, much as we have to deal with Kosovo as it is now.

By the by, I don't think migration is of necessity a bad thing. I do agree that exerting political control over what wasn't theirs is obviously going to be politically contentious, but we live in the Ireland of 2012 rather than the Ireland of the 17th century.

Northern Ireland was not created by migration, neither was it created in the 17th century. It was a pseudo state created in the 20th century for a number of reasons, one of which related to economics.

philologos wrote: »

By the by, you'll have a hard job outbreeding those who support the union in Northern Ireland because it contains a lot of people of a Catholic background.

Only 25% identify as Irish only according to today's census result and there are 45% Catholics.

As I stated this statistic is obviously ludicrous to anybody with an indepth knowledge of the region. Not to mention it's a total contradiction to the outcome of the recent vote and the cause of the current unionist outburst. More Catholic school children are currently enrolled in primary school in the North than Protestant. Catholics have already out bred the Protestants but the balance hasn't reached voting age yet. Considering that the most Unionists are protestant and vice versa, a united Ireland in the next 40 to 60 years is not beyond the realms.

Ghandee · 11-12-2012 11:56PM

Bit of hypocrisy on this site from a few usuals (you know who you are lads)

Quick to remind us that the 'north is part of the UK' as that's the way the majority want it, when they vote otherwise blah blah blah.....

Then they come on this thread, apparently outraged at a contentious (admittedly to some) flag has been removed from outside city hall, even though it was removed after what lads?

A majority held, democratic vote.

Is it only democratic if it matches your views or what's the story?

philologos · 11-12-2012 11:57PM

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

Exactly, despite the fact that the state was created in a undemocratic manner. We , on this island, agreed to support the Good Friday Agreement and support the will of the majority as long as the rights of the minority to maintain their culture and nationality were respected. We agreed that despite the past, democracy would decide the future of Northern Ireland. The recent vote was democratic and didn't go the way of the Unionists, that's significant. More significant than a shoddy poll that suggests only 25% of people in the north call themselves Irish. I'm from Belfast and can assure you that's boll0x. Many unionists even refer to themselves as Irish (and British).

Northern Ireland was not created by migration, neither was it created in the 17th century. It was a pseudo state created in the 20th century for a number of reasons, one of which related to economics.

As I stated this statistic is obviously ludicrous to anybody with an indepth knowledge of the region. Not to mention it's a total contradiction to the outcome of the recent vote and the cause of the current unionist outburst. More Catholic school children are currently enrolled in primary school in the North than Protestant. Catholics have already out bred the Protestants but the balance hasn't reached voting age yet. Considering that the most Unionists are protestant and vice versa, a united Ireland in the next 40 to 60 years is not beyond the realms.

I quoted the 2010 Life and Times Survey which showed that most Catholics support the union with Britain. I think Seaneh may had missed it also.

Edit: 52% of Catholics.

Carlos_Ray · 12-12-2012 12:01AM

philologos wrote: »

I quoted the 2010 Life and Times Survey which showed that most Catholics didn't support the union with Britain. I think Seaneh may had missed it also.

I didn't miss that. I'm just wondering why you think this survey is in any way reliable. I was never surveyed.... I don't know anybody who was.

You pay a lot of attention to this dubious survey but what about the recent democratic vote? What does that tell you? Or would you rather ignore it because it contradicts your view that virtually everyone is pro union?

Ghandee · 12-12-2012 12:03AM

philologos wrote: »

I quoted the 2010 Life and Times Survey which showed that most Catholics didn't support the union with Britain. I think Seaneh may had missed it also.

Do you respect a democratic vote carried by Belfast city council?

lugha · 12-12-2012 12:06AM

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

As I stated this statistic is obviously ludicrous to anybody with an indepth knowledge of the region.

It is pretty telling that only 25% of NI folk identified themselves as "Irish" (as opposed to Northern Irish). After all, we are routinely told my nationalists here that the border is invisible and is only a line on a map (totally unlike any other international border!).

If there is no border there is no Northern Ireland (from an identity perspective at any rate). The census results seem to throw considerable doubt on the oft made claim that a minor nudge will tip those in NI who favour a united Ireland into a majority.

Loyalist mobs attacking Alliance Party offices and homes.

Comments