Loyalist mobs attacking Alliance Party offices and homes.

Seaneh · 11-12-2012 10:14PM

Edg3 wrote: »

Note: I apologize for getting my facts arseways in this, my point remains the same but during my rant I mixed up what I was saying. I'm aware the flag is being taken down not flown and thats what its over. Most of what I said was a broad term about the North and its current state, but the way I wrote my comment was backways and I apologize.

No problem old bean...

citytillidie · 11-12-2012 10:14PM

Edg3 wrote: »

I'm sorry but the north belongs to the British, its signed and sealed and its theirs, sure they wanna give it back NOW because they cant afford it but come on!
Just look at it this way, its British land no matter if some of us like it or not, I love Belfast, its a clean beautiful city and I try and visit it once or twice a year if possible. Yes it has its assorted past and its terrible but we handed it over, so let them run it if they want. If your an Northern Irelander then your living in Britannia! You have no choice in the matter and if they want to fly their flag then they are quiet entitled to.
I dont want to get into a big hoohaa with anyone or a political debate but we're talking land boundaries and they're pretty clear. It'd be like half of Dublin City moving to London and complaining they were flying the Union Jack there and then rioting. Its not right and for god sake, if we're ever going to get by all this crap we should put the petty differences aside. Whats done is done, I hate to say it but its true, rioting now wont change the past, it just makes us look worse. I'd like to see the North a happy peaceful place, as would most people, but like anywhere you have the people who take it to heart and have to riot to cause hassle when there is NO NEED.

No matter if 46% or 6% of the population considers themselves British or not its a moot point, they are living in an English owned country. Why do they have to keep poking at a wound that could have been closed years ago. By the way, that goes for both sides not just one of the other. In this day and age we have way more important things to worry about then a ****ing flag for god sake.

They should be ashamed of themselves for how they're acting, it will change nothing and they are destroying innocent peoples lives and homes for this crap! Trying to petrol bomb a police officer over a piece of cloth? Leave this **** in the past and move on its the only way we'll ever see peace, and thats all we want.

Other choices include, moving out of the North? Sure its your home, treat it that way instead of an occupied country, your not rebels, your living in and were born into a British country, you can be Irish but your passport says British because your ****ing British. (I assume thats what it says Ive never seen one to be honest). Its time to stop fighting, stop bickering and just get on with our lives. Am I the only one who sees this? Obviously not.

I am sorry but that is just wrong.

I am from Derry, see myself as Northern Irish and travel on an Irish passport.

Edg3 · 11-12-2012 10:15PM

philologos wrote: »

No you're not at all. I think Northern Ireland should make up its own mind as to whether it wants to be reunified with the Republic. Honestly, I don't see it happening any time soon, but as long as liberty and freedom are given to all people there, I don't see why it is a huge issue. What odds let them at it.

If it went to a vote I wonder what would happen? Its sad because I love Ireland and when people hear I'm Irish first thing they ask (I travel alot) is if that violence is still happening up the north and unfortunately I always have to say "Yes". I'd like some day to be able to turn and say "No, its all good up there now." but your right, I cant see it happening anytime soon.
Thing is, we'd see more riots if they tried to hand it back to us, though saying hand it back is a weird way to do it since its been so long since it was ours.

neil_hosey · 11-12-2012 10:15PM

Edg3 wrote: »

I'm sorry but the north belongs to the British, its signed and sealed and its theirs, sure they wanna give it back NOW because they cant afford it but come on!
Just look at it this way, its British land no matter if some of us like it or not, I love Belfast, its a clean beautiful city and I try and visit it once or twice a year if possible. Yes it has its assorted past and its terrible but we handed it over, so let them run it if they want. If your an Northern Irelander then your living in Britannia! You have no choice in the matter and if they want to fly their flag then they are quiet entitled to.
I dont want to get into a big hoohaa with anyone or a political debate but we're talking land boundaries and they're pretty clear. It'd be like half of Dublin City moving to London and complaining they were flying the Union Jack there and then rioting. Its not right and for god sake, if we're ever going to get by all this crap we should put the petty differences aside. Whats done is done, I hate to say it but its true, rioting now wont change the past, it just makes us look worse. I'd like to see the North a happy peaceful place, as would most people, but like anywhere you have the people who take it to heart and have to riot to cause hassle when there is NO NEED.

No matter if 46% or 6% of the population considers themselves British or not its a moot point, they are living in an English owned country. Why do they have to keep poking at a wound that could have been closed years ago. By the way, that goes for both sides not just one of the other. In this day and age we have way more important things to worry about then a ****ing flag for god sake.

They should be ashamed of themselves for how they're acting, it will change nothing and they are destroying innocent peoples lives and homes for this crap! Trying to petrol bomb a police officer over a piece of cloth? Leave this **** in the past and move on its the only way we'll ever see peace, and thats all we want.

Other choices include, moving out of the North? Sure its your home, treat it that way instead of an occupied country, your not rebels, your living in and were born into a British country, you can be Irish but your passport says British because your ****ing British. (I assume thats what it says Ive never seen one to be honest). Its time to stop fighting, stop bickering and just get on with our lives. Am I the only one who sees this? Obviously not.

erm. by your post, i think you are assuming the nationalists were rioting...

it was the loyalists.

Seaneh · 11-12-2012 10:16PM

philologos wrote: »

No you're not at all. I think Northern Ireland should make up its own mind as to whether it wants to be reunified with the Republic. Honestly, I don't see it happening any time soon, but as long as liberty and freedom are given to all people there, I don't see why it is a huge issue. What odds let them at it.

It's a huge issue because it's only in the last 2 decades that liberty and freedom are being given to both sides.

Are you really so stupid so as to not see that simple fact?

Despite the poll you quoted from Queens, the reality is that well over 40% of the electorate voted for Nationalist representatives in both the westminister and stormont elections. So, clearly, your figures don't add up or make sense.

The next general and assembly elections will also see a rise in both of those numbers for at least 5% according to projections. Between them the SDLP and Sein Fein hold 8 (of 18) seats in Westminster and 43 (of 108 ) seats in Stormont.
Those are the real numbers. When you look at those numbers, it's quite easy to see that the split is less grey.

Chuck Stone · 11-12-2012 10:16PM

philologos wrote: »

most people in Northern Ireland including most people who would identify as Roman Catholic want Northern Ireland to stay in the UK.

Even if it's true this does not mean that people from the north who identify as Catholic/Nationalist/Irish are happy with the flag flying over BCH 365 days a year.

Edg3 · 11-12-2012 10:21PM

I was only speaking in broad terms, more general then about this immediate problem. I'm aware its the Loyalists causing the problems.

I just had to speak my mind, about the whole thing not just whats happening right now.

Thanks for correcting me on the passport thing, I assumed, but left myself open to correction, that the North used British passports.

citytillidie · 11-12-2012 10:22PM

Edg3 wrote: »

I was only speaking in broad terms, more general then about this immediate problem. I'm aware its the Loyalists causing the problems.

I just had to speak my mind, about the whole thing not just whats happening right now.

Thanks for correcting me on the passport thing, I assumed, but left myself open to correction, that the North used British passports.

North can use either British or Irish passports

Lapin · 11-12-2012 10:23PM

Edg3 wrote: »

I'm sorry but the north belongs to the British, its signed and sealed and its theirs, sure they wanna give it back NOW because they cant afford it but come on!
Just look at it this way, its British land no matter if some of us like it or not, I love Belfast, its a clean beautiful city and I try and visit it once or twice a year if possible. Yes it has its assorted past and its terrible but we handed it over, so let them run it if they want. If your an Northern Irelander then your living in Britannia! You have no choice in the matter and if they want to fly their flag then they are quiet entitled to.
I dont want to get into a big hoohaa with anyone or a political debate but we're talking land boundaries and they're pretty clear. It'd be like half of Dublin City moving to London and complaining they were flying the Union Jack there and then rioting. Its not right and for god sake, if we're ever going to get by all this crap we should put the petty differences aside. Whats done is done, I hate to say it but its true, rioting now wont change the past, it just makes us look worse. I'd like to see the North a happy peaceful place, as would most people, but like anywhere you have the people who take it to heart and have to riot to cause hassle when there is NO NEED.

No matter if 46% or 6% of the population considers themselves British or not its a moot point, they are living in an English owned country. Why do they have to keep poking at a wound that could have been closed years ago. By the way, that goes for both sides not just one of the other. In this day and age we have way more important things to worry about then a ****ing flag for god sake.

They should be ashamed of themselves for how they're acting, it will change nothing and they are destroying innocent peoples lives and homes for this crap! Trying to petrol bomb a police officer over a piece of cloth? Leave this **** in the past and move on its the only way we'll ever see peace, and thats all we want.

Other choices include, moving out of the North? Sure its your home, treat it that way instead of an occupied country, your not rebels, your living in and were born into a British country, you can be Irish but your passport says British because your ****ing British. (I assume thats what it says Ive never seen one to be honest). Its time to stop fighting, stop bickering and just get on with our lives. Am I the only one who sees this? Obviously not.

You haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.

Have you actually been following the news at all this week ?

philologos · 11-12-2012 10:26PM

Seaneh wrote: »

It's a huge issue because it's only in the last 2 decades that liberty and freedom are being given to both sides.

Are you really so stupid so as to not see that simple fact?

No I'm not stupid, at least I hope

Secondly, I was clearly referring to Northern Ireland in its current state. I thought that was obvious, but perhaps not.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Even if it's true this does not mean that people from the north who identify as Catholic/Nationalist/Irish are happy with the flag flying over BCH 365 days a year.

What reason do you have to doubt the survey?

By the by, I agree we don't have a reason either way, we'd need another poll for this. However, judging by the fact that most who identify as Catholic would be quite happy for the union to continue it seems a little bit contradictory to object to the flag of that union.

It doesn't make a great deal of sense. I don't object to the Union Jack over Buckingham Palace in London in much the same way as I don't object to the tricolour over the Oireachtas in Dublin.

Forgive me if I've somehow foresaken my Irish nationality as some would claim for not seeing what all the fuss is about.

Border-Rat · 11-12-2012 10:26PM

The LAT survey is taken from a total of 2,000 random households. Many not even on the electorate. Random surveys of .10% of the population are hardly reliable. Only an election is certifiable. In the 90's Catholics who voted for Sinn Fein were somewhat seen as extremists. Now they've moved to Sinn Fein and given them a majority mandate.

I can't see 'Northern Ireland' lasting anyway, it's economy is 75% government spending and Downing Street has a colossal 5 trillion+ debt hidden under the carpet. Partition means two economies, two police forces, two health services etc, eventually an indifferent 06 Counties will see the folly of that and the rewards of removing it.

Edg3 · 11-12-2012 10:27PM

Lapin wrote: »

You haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.

Have you actually been following the news at all this week ?

Read what else I wrote after that. Im sorry if I didnt make my point clear about how I felt, in general I'm very tired and I messed up what I was trying to say.

Ive been following the events via BBC news online. I just arsed up my writing of the comments :mad:

The message remains the same, there should not be so much trouble over the flag being taken down. Since the North is Britain it should be allowed stay up.
God I really ****ed up what I was writing I apologize for getting it arseways when I was writing.

philologos · 11-12-2012 10:30PM

Border-Rat wrote: »

The LAT survey is taken from a total of 2,000 random households. Many not even on the electorate. Random surveys of .10% of the population are hardly reliable. Only an election is certifiable. In the 90's Catholics who voted for Sinn Fein were somewhat seen as extremists. Now they've moved to Sinn Fein and given them a majority mandate.

I can't see 'Northern Ireland' lasting anyway, it's economy is 75% government spending and Downing Street has a colossal 5 trillion+ debt hidden under the carpet. Partition means two economies, two police forces, two health services etc, eventually an indifferent 06 Counties will see the folly of that and the rewards of removing it.

Samples are taken for surveys all the time. Now if you had a real criticism of the methodology other than it didn't give you the right result then we could get talking.

By the by, the UK's debt isn't 5 trillion+. It's just over 1 trillion, you're correct but I don't see the UK's economy imploding at the moment.

Oh, and there isn't 2 police services, two health services within Northern Ireland. There's the PSNI and the NHS. It's not extra expense to Northern Ireland either by the by, I'd suspect that Northern Ireland benefits quite nicely from Westminster contributions including a lot of public sector work that probably wouldn't be available otherwise.

Border-Rat · 11-12-2012 10:32PM

philologos wrote: »

It doesn't make a great deal of sense. I don't object to the Union Jack over Buckingham Palace in London in much the same way as I don't object to the tricolour over the Oireachtas in Dublin.

Forgive me if I've somehow foresaken my Irish nationality as some would claim for not seeing what all the fuss is about.

For many here, being questioned on Nationality is still a hugely sensitive and question. It wasn't that long ago an answer would be the difference between life and death.

I've often been pulled by the PSNI and immediately asked as to what my National allegiance is. An odd thing to do when pulling a car to check a tax disc. They never get the answer they're looking for, but for some moderate's I'm sure for the sake of convenience the answer is 'Northern Ireland'.

Likewise, I know Catholics in the 06 who despise Sinn Fein almost as much as they do partition. Mostly older people.

karma_ · 11-12-2012 10:33PM

philologos wrote: »

Oh, and there isn't 2 police services, two health services within Northern Ireland. There's the PSNI and the NHS. It's not extra expense to Northern Ireland either by the by, I'd suspect that Northern Ireland benefits quite nicely from Westminster contributions including a lot of public sector work that probably wouldn't be available otherwise.

If you're going to deconstruct someones post you should perhaps read it correctly in the first place.

karma_ · 11-12-2012 10:34PM

Border-Rat wrote: »

I've often been pulled by the PSNI and immediately asked as to what my National allegiance is.

I'm not sure this is believable to be fair, I've never experienced it.

gallag · 11-12-2012 10:35PM

Border-Rat wrote: »

The LAT survey is taken from a total of 2,000 random households. Many not even on the electorate. Random surveys of .10% of the population are hardly reliable. Only an election is certifiable. In the 90's Catholics who voted for Sinn Fein were somewhat seen as extremists. Now they've moved to Sinn Fein and given them a majority mandate.

I can't see 'Northern Ireland' lasting anyway, it's economy is 75% government spending and Downing Street has a colossal 5 trillion+ debt hidden under the carpet. Partition means two economies, two police forces, two health services etc, eventually an indifferent 06 Counties will see the folly of that and the rewards of removing it.

Partition also means the health and police in the north get paid less Than their southern counterparts, no one wants a united Ireland and Ireland sure as he'll can't afford one, by your own admission.

Border-Rat · 11-12-2012 10:38PM

philologos wrote: »

Samples are taken for surveys all the time. Now if you had a real criticism of the methodology other than it didn't give you the right result then we could get talking.

I do. It's from a random selection of 0.1% of the population. Many who aren't even on the electorate. By comparison a majority of actual voters have given Sinn Fein a mandate. Sinn Fein's manifesto is practically a United Ireland.

By the by, the UK's debt isn't 5 trillion+. It's just over 1 trillion, you're correct but I don't see the UK's economy imploding at the moment.

It actually exceeds 5 trillion;

http://www.iea.org.uk/blog/true-level-of-uk-government-debt-exceeds-%C2%A35-trillion

Oh, and there isn't 2 police services, two health services within Northern Ireland. There's the PSNI and the NHS. It's not extra expense to Northern Ireland either by the by, I'd suspect that Northern Ireland benefits quite nicely from Westminster contributions including a lot of public sector work that probably wouldn't be available otherwise.

I didn't say Northern Ireland did, I said Ireland did. McGuinness said it better;

"“Whether you’re living in Cork or Kerry, or Antrim or Derry, we all really do need to consider how much more efficiently the island of Ireland would work if we didn’t have two government and two financial systems, didn’t have two education systems, didn’t have two health systems, and didn’t have various institutions in competition with each other"

It's unnatural. The removal of checkpoints along the border was a serious blow to Unionism in that regard. Bus routes for schools, for example, now regularly cross the border as if it didn't exist.

Sound of Silence · 11-12-2012 10:39PM

Edg3 wrote: »

I was only speaking in broad terms, more general then about this immediate problem. I'm aware its the Loyalists causing the problems.

If broad terms was considered a suitable substitute for "all-encompassing ignorance" then I'd have to agree with you.

It would seem that your general point is that Nationalists should not voice their opinion because Northern Ireland is essentially "Britannia" and "English owned"; and in a true realisation of Democracy you then encouraged all those who are in opposition to simply leave the Country in a mass exodus.

You do understand how offensive that is, don't you?

Chuck Stone · 11-12-2012 10:39PM

Edg3 wrote: »

Just look at it this way, its British land no matter if some of us like it or not,

Britain is the land mass to the west of Ireland consisting of England Wales and Scotchland. Northern Ireland is under devolved UK administration.

. Yes it has its assorted past and its terrible but we handed it over,

No we didn't. The 6 counties are a grand exercise in Gerrymandering and then creating a disenfranchised, discriminated againt minority.

If your an Northern Irelander then your living in Britannia!

No. See above.

You have no choice in the matter and if they want to fly their flag then they are quiet entitled to.

Bullshit. You're talking about a dictatorship. The flag has been used as a symbol of a once privileged PUL community juxtaposed by a once discriminated against nationalist/catholic community.

No matter if 46% or 6% of the population considers themselves British or not its a moot point, they are living in an English owned country.

English owned?

Other choices include, moving out of the North?

WTF? Sent the Ulster Scots home is it? Move the Irish south of the border? Ethnic cleansing is it?

you can be Irish but your passport says British because your ****ing British.

It's not fucking Britain.

I was born behind the imaginary line in the 6 counties. I'm Irish. I have an Irish Passport. I write 'Ireland' in any official forms as my place of birth. My identity is Irish.

Border-Rat · 11-12-2012 10:42PM

gallag wrote: »

Partition also means the health and police in the north get paid less Than their southern counterparts, no one wants a united Ireland and Ireland sure as he'll can't afford one, by your own admission.

The majority in the South want a United Ireland and the majority of Catholics in the North have given the mandate to a party whose sole raison d'être is to end partition. Sinn Fein even has a private army still in active existence incase things don't go their way. People who vote for them know this, the only reason they didn't vote for them in the 90's was because the UVF and UDA murdered anyone who tried to. And on the economics of partition, the strategical benefits outweigh the tactical shortfalls.

Michael Collins was the first to point out the obvious - Ireland will always be richer pulling its resources as 32 Counties than it will under inorganic partition.

Lapin · 11-12-2012 10:45PM

Edg3 wrote: »

Read what else I wrote after that. Im sorry if I didnt make my point clear about how I felt, in general I'm very tired and I messed up what I was trying to say.

Ive been following the events via BBC news online. I just arsed up my writing of the comments :mad:

The message remains the same, there should not be so much trouble over the flag being taken down. Since the North is Britain it should be allowed stay up.
God I really ****ed up what I was writing I apologize for getting it arseways when I was writing.

You must have posted your follow up response while I was typing mine, hence my reasons for missing it.
My comments were simply addressed towards yours in the context of the title of this thread.
In the overall scope of what you are saying, I am in broad agreement with you.

By the way - Never apologise for expressing an opinion - Yours is as valuable as anyone elses.

philologos · 11-12-2012 10:47PM

Border-Rat wrote: »

For many here, being questioned on Nationality is still a hugely sensitive and question. It wasn't that long ago an answer would be the difference between life and death.

Yes, but thank God things are changing and people are becoming more open minded about it. As I've said already, I think a good dose of apathy would be a good thing.

Border-Rat wrote: »

I've often been pulled by the PSNI and immediately asked as to what my National allegiance is. An odd thing to do when pulling a car to check a tax disc. They never get the answer they're looking for, but for some moderate's I'm sure for the sake of convenience the answer is 'Northern Ireland'.

I think it's irrelevant and should be irrelevant. I agree it is an odd thing to do.

Border-Rat wrote: »

Likewise, I know Catholics in the 06 who despise Sinn Fein almost as much as they do partition. Mostly older people.

It's up to them as to whether or not they despise SF.

Edg3 · 11-12-2012 10:48PM

I hate when people multiquote me, its hard to reply to them in turn.

Ok, FIRST I have been corrected on the passport thing, thats fine your passport is Irish, I ASSUMED it was British due to the North being ruled by Britain, no offense was meant by this.
When I said move, I mean if you dont like the idea of being ruled by England, which the North is, then you could move, its an option, I'm not saying throw all the people out, nor am I saying segregate them. Its your home as much as anyone elses but if it bothers you so much, you were born into it, its always been that way (in our/your generation).
When I say British Owned I mean its technically British, not like they go around putting their names on everything.

I'm not talking about a dictatorship, I'm aware the flag was voted down by was it 26 to 21 or something, I forget the exact number right now. What I meant was if they wanted to fly it there was nothing wrong with it and and they were entitled to up until now, I forgot to mention being part of a debate before this where we argued whether or not the flag should be flown.

I apologized and corrected myself for ballsing it up when I was writing out the original message.

And I will not apologize again for saying British Owned, poor, very poor choice of words, ruled over by Britain via a coalition Parliament which is not an Irish Government. I meant no offense to anyone and I'm aware my comment was ridiculous and stupid as all get out.

philologos · 11-12-2012 10:50PM

Border-Rat wrote: »

The majority in the South want a United Ireland and the majority of Catholics in the North have given the mandate to a party whose sole raison d'être is to end partition. Sinn Fein even has a private army still in active existence incase things don't go their way. People who vote for them know this, the only reason they didn't vote for them in the 90's was because the UVF and UDA murdered anyone who tried to. And on the economics of partition, the strategical benefits outweigh the tactical shortfalls.

Michael Collins was the first to point out the obvious - Ireland will always be richer pulling its resources as 32 Counties than it will under inorganic partition.

The majority of people in Northern Ireland on both sides don't seem to want to be reunited with the Republic though. That's why I can't see it happening soon.

I don't necessarily agree that NI would be better off out of the union considering the amount of support it receives from Westminster at present.

Edg3 · 11-12-2012 10:51PM

Lapin wrote: »

By the way - Never apologise for expressing an opinion - Yours is as valuable as anyone elses.

I only apologize for the massive way I screwed up what I was trying to say, fixing that I think I'm on everyone elses page

Thanks for understanding.

Lapin · 11-12-2012 10:52PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Britain is the land mass to the west of Ireland consisting of England Wales and Scotchland. Northern Ireland is under devolved UK administration.

I was born behind the imaginary line in the 6 counties. I'm Irish. I have an Irish Passport. I write 'Ireland' in any official forms as my place of birth. My identity is Irish.

Oh Dear.

Chuck Stone · 11-12-2012 10:55PM

Lapin wrote: »

Oh Dear.

What?

Scotch people are from Scotchland.

:pac:

gallag · 11-12-2012 10:56PM

Border-Rat wrote: »

Sinn Fein even has a private army still in active existence incase things don't go their way.

What does this mean? Are you saying that they will use violence if they don't get their way?

Witcher · 11-12-2012 10:57PM

philologos wrote: »

The majority of people in Northern Ireland on both sides don't seem to want to be reunited with the Republic though. That's why I can't see it happening soon.

Is there even support in the Republic for it anymore? Looking at the news of the rioting and the general frequency with which it happens in the North...I would question whether people here want to be any party to that. No slight against people from the North, I'm aware most are peaceful but the few seem to make themselves very vocal in the North.

I don't know if anyone has asked this in the thread...quite possible they have.

Loyalist mobs attacking Alliance Party offices and homes.

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