Cut foreign aid!

RandomName2 · 10-12-2012 04:30PM

Dodge wrote: »

No, you didn't.

Nobody 'chucks' anything, and nobody gives money away. Every penny spent by Ireland, they'll expect to get back in many multiples. Its how international diplomacy works. most programmes co-ordinated by thr EU, the UN and the world bank. We're just keeping up appearances

You're right. Hundreds of millions of euros is not 'anything'. And you are also right that it's all about appearances. Fair enough. But not being bankrupt would, in my opinion, look better than chucking hundreds of millions of euro. Sure, Mugabe mightn't like us as much if we don't give him millions of euro, but what do you honestly expect to get back from him?

Nice how we are giving more per GNP than Germany, which is funny cuz Germany is bailing us out (maybe there is a link between having to be bailed out and giving a half billion euro away), but at least Greece seems to have copped on. There's hope for them yet.

Wibbs · 10-12-2012 04:36PM

From another thread on the subject my take was this:

I have no objection to charity, far from it, I give what I can to both local and international causes, however that's my choice. I take a dim view when that kinda choice is taken away from me and everyone else, especially if I/we are gonna be guilted into it, especially when we're in dire straits for at least a generation and are borrowing the money and paying interest on it to do so.

Plus have a look at the various EU nations. We're among the few on track with our overseas aid packages and we exceeded them during the "boom". In fact per head we pay more than Germans, or French among others. On top of that none of the so called PIIGS states are within sniffing distance of our per capita spending on overseas aid. That's not even considering our personal charity spend which is the second highest in the world and far higher than any other EU nation.

That's beyond the wastage involved. Hell the aforementioned Ugandan Gov were able to stump up 100 million more than our entire overseas aid package on a few air superiority fighters and are looking to double the order. 1.4 billion on fighter planes? Eh wut da fuq? Then you have to ask the question as many have, is this aid actually doing long term good for these various nations?

Put it another way imagine if a family got into financial difficulty and their earnings were far less than their outgoings. If they went to a financial adviser and they found that they were borrowing money on top of their other loans that they couldn't service to keep a direct debit going to a profligate relative, what would said adviser think? What would they advise if they found out said relative actually had more cash to flash than you and was doing so? Cos that's what we're doing and not just with Uganda.

Put it yet another way, just one years spend on overseas aid would pay for the national childrens hospital with tens of millions in change left over.

pablomakaveli · 10-12-2012 04:56PM

I dont see anything wrong with cutting overseas aid for a few years while the country tries to recover. If anything given how generously Ireland has been in giving aid over the past few decades, almost gives us a right to.

The sooner this country can get back on its feet the sooner it can start giving generously againn.

Dodge · 10-12-2012 05:08PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I dont see anything wrong with cutting overseas aid for a few years while the country tries to recover

I'm not arguing against that, just for the record.

But the money isn't been thrown around. Its being treated as an investment. This little piece in Bill Gates goes into it a little

http://www.thegatesnotes.com/Topics/Development/Why-Development-Aid-Matters

To put it bluntly, western countries aren't looking to give aid to African countries (et al) just to be nice to them, they're looking to create more customers for thier own businesses. Look at how many high profile leaders have recently vistied the likes of China and India (Brazil too). The EU/USA etc are all looking out for themselves here

Now, whether we can afford to make tht investment is up to others to decide but throwing money away, it isn't

pontia · 10-12-2012 05:19PM

Dodge wrote: »

I'm not arguing against that, just for the record.

But the money isn't been thrown around. Its being treated as an investment. This little piece in Bill Gates goes into it a little

http://www.thegatesnotes.com/Topics/Development/Why-Development-Aid-Matters

To put it bluntly, western countries aren't looking to give aid to African countries (et al) just to be nice to them, they're looking to create more customers for thier own businesses. Look at how many high profile leaders have recently vistied the likes of China and India (Brazil too). The EU/USA etc are all looking out for themselves here

Now, whether we can afford to make tht investment is up to others to decide but throwing money away, it isn't

we have given billions over the last few years,by your reckonings our investments should be paying off ? how come irelands in the toilet so ? some people need to wake up

UCDVet · 10-12-2012 05:28PM

pontia wrote: »

we have given billions over the last few years,by your reckonings our investments should be paying off ? how come irelands in the toilet so ? some people need to wake up

To be fair, giving away billions had virtually nothing to do with Ireland being in the toilet now.

It stands to reason that cutting off the billions Ireland is giving away won't resolve the problem either.

Kind of the same thing with all these tax increases. Are we broke *because* we really, really needed a property tax and went all these years without it? No? Then the solution to our problem is unlikely to be a property tax.

But it's easier to fix symptoms (We don't have enough money) than address the problem (WHY we don't have enough money). So let's slap on some taxes and hope for a new bubble to come along and let us pretend we're all rich again.

RandomName2 · 10-12-2012 05:30PM

Dodge wrote: »

To put it bluntly, western countries aren't looking to give aid to African countries (et al) just to be nice to them, they're looking to create more customers for thier own businesses. Look at how many high profile leaders have recently vistied the likes of China and India (Brazil too). The EU/USA etc are all looking out for themselves here

Now, whether we can afford to make tht investment is up to others to decide but throwing money away, it isn't

Generally the way to get a return on your investment is to loan money, have some collateral to back it up in case the investment goes belly up, and put some interest on the loan so that you can earn money on the investment. If the country in question spends this money developing infrastructure that's great! If they then use their increased wealth to buy your produce that's just perfect.

This sort of thing is the reason Ireland was loaned money. By loaning us money we can build up our economy, and earn some money on the interest. Winning!

Giving Uganda money didn't prove to be a great investment as Ireland doesn't sell jet fighters. :pac:

Dodge · 10-12-2012 05:31PM

pontia wrote: »

we have given billions over the last few years,by your reckonings our investments should be paying off ? how come irelands in the toilet so ? some people need to wake up

That'd only make sense if the investments were the reason for Ireland being in the toilet. Germany and Sweden, for example, give aid and they're doing fine. There isn't a straight correlation

Ireland is in the toilet because of successive failures by its elected representatives.

Dodge · 10-12-2012 05:33PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

Giving Uganda money didn't prove to be a great investment as Ireland doesn't sell jet fighters. :pac:

No, but France do. As the French love Kerrygold. The more jets the sell, the more butter they'll buy

And around we go...

RandomName2 · 10-12-2012 05:38PM

Dodge wrote: »

No, but France do. As the French love Kerrygold. The more jets the sell, the more butter they'll buy

And around we go...

The frightening thing is that you are actually being half serious.

pontia · 10-12-2012 05:39PM

he claimed foreign aids an investment,wheres the returns ? why keep buying shares that lose money,this is no different ,makes zero sense to borrow money to give away

Boombastic · 10-12-2012 05:39PM

Dodge wrote: »

No, but France do. As the French love Kerrygold. The more jets the sell, the more butter they'll buy

And around we go...

Will they be willing to bring the horse on these Jets?

Dodge · 10-12-2012 06:16PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

The frightening thing is that you are actually being half serious.

No, I wasn't. No idea if France makes jets or like Kerrygold

I've made my points above. No need to go round in circles IMO

Blisterman · 10-12-2012 06:55PM

The difficulty with Foreign Aid is that the benefits are difficult to quantify. Certaintly, there are benefits to Ireland in feeding and educating people in third world countries. Educated people are less likely to turn to extremism, and more likely to do business with Ireland.

There are also benefits in goodwill and diplomacy, not to mention the fact that it's morally the right thing to do. Ireland of all countries, with its history of famine should understand this.

Anyway, just because some dictators use government money to purchase fighter jets, doesn't mean the people of that country have to be punished and starve to death as a result. In fact, by bypassing government channels, NGOs can help to undermine the power of these dictators.

RandomName2 · 10-12-2012 07:05PM

Dodge wrote: »

No, I wasn't. No idea if France makes jets or like Kerrygold

I've made my points above. No need to go round in circles IMO

I mean seriously, I'm not seeing much return for the 4.4 billion euro (conservative est) we have invested over the last 6 years - in much the same way that (as the analogy goes) the EU hasn't seen much return for the money it gave Ireland to piss away several years ago. But even the EU money had strings attached - the EU has the power to make us net contributors - it just hasn't attempted to make us such because we're um ... completely broke.

But hey, let's put another couple of billion (no strings attached) loans gifts into basket case countries and kleptocracies and maybe these countries will flourish (India is already flourishing, but we'll leave that aside), and then they perhaps will specifically return investment into Ireland... just by chance, like. And if they don't flourish, or don't reinvest in Ireland, then our investment will just be lost.

But don't worry! It wasn't our money to start with!

There is sound economic pragmatism at work here.

Child benefit and respite care are worthwhile sacrifices to this cause!

Chinasea · 10-12-2012 07:20PM

Hey,

Aren't we the nation that consistently beg from the EU every couple of years
Deploy the good, the bad and the ugly unemployed off to every corner of the world in their thousands

Icepick · 10-12-2012 07:23PM

I'd rather cut domestic welfare by 0.5 billion.

MaxSteele · 10-12-2012 07:26PM

I suppose the term "look after your own first" is too right wing and not progressive to some people. :rolleyes:

Death and Taxes · 10-12-2012 07:41PM

Icepick wrote: »

I'd rather cut domestic welfare by 0.5 billion.

Yea, fair paly we cant expect Mugabe to go without his caviar just because we have an unemployment problem:mad:

Itwasntme. · 10-12-2012 08:04PM

Blisterman wrote: »

The difficulty with Foreign Aid is that the benefits are difficult to quantify. Certaintly, there are benefits to Ireland in feeding and educating people in third world countries. Educated people are less likely to turn to extremism, and more likely to do business with Ireland.

There are also benefits in goodwill and diplomacy, not to mention the fact that it's morally the right thing to do. Ireland of all countries, with its history of famine should understand this.

Anyway, just because some dictators use government money to purchase fighter jets, doesn't mean the people of that country have to be punished and starve to death as a result. In fact, by bypassing government channels, NGOs can help to undermine the power of these dictators.

+1. Everyone making a case against foreign aid on this thread should read the Ireland Africa Strategy that was released in September last year. Giving foreign aid isn't just about helping the poor impoverished people in the 9 partner countries. It's also about creating a friendly environment within which Ireland can trade.

Yes, Ireland has been one of the most generous nations, even number one on the generous donors list at one point. This generosity is not simply out of the goodness of the Irish government's/you, the tax payer's (apparently forced) heart.

If Ireland stops giving foreign aid, it stands to lose a lot more in the way of its carefully cultivated reputation in the 'developing' world. A lot of people on here would then ask, "what do we get from them anyway? They take and take without giving." You would be wrong.

Cutting aid at this moment in time would assuage the tax payer but it would also be short sighted. There's a scramble for Africa going on at the moment and the reason Ireland is keen to keep its foreign aid (now merged with trade) programme running is because if it doesn't, it will be left out of what is potentially a very lucrative game.

Icepick · 10-12-2012 08:38PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Yea, fair paly we cant expect Mugabe to go without his caviar just because we have an unemployment problem:mad:

Don't be silly.
...everybody knows he eats babies.

eyescreamcone · 10-12-2012 08:44PM

Itwasntme. wrote: »

+1. Everyone making a case against foreign aid on this thread should read the Ireland Africa Strategy that was released in September last year. Giving foreign aid isn't just about helping the poor impoverished people in the 9 partner countries. It's also about creating a friendly environment within which Ireland can trade.

Yes, Ireland has been one of the most generous nations, even number one on the generous donors list at one point. This generosity is not simply out of the goodness of the Irish government's/you, the tax payer's (apparently forced) heart.

If Ireland stops giving foreign aid, it stands to lose a lot more in the way of its carefully cultivated reputation in the 'developing' world. A lot of people on here would then ask, "what do we get from them anyway? They take and take without giving." You would be wrong.

Cutting aid at this moment in time would assuage the tax payer but it would also be short sighted. There's a scramble for Africa going on at the moment and the reason Ireland is keen to keep its foreign aid (now merged with trade) programme running is because if it doesn't, it will be left out of what is potentially a very lucrative game.

Couldn't disagree more.
We have been sending money into this bottomless pit for many years.
What benefits have we got up to now??

At the very least we should put a timeframe on when we're going to pull the plug.

Tomorrow wouldn't be too soon if u ask me but to keep our do gooders happy we could say 2017.
5 more years and you're on your own.

RandomName2 · 10-12-2012 08:52PM

Chinasea wrote: »

Hey,

Aren't we the nation that consistently beg from the EU every couple of years

Well we are paying back our massive debt... :pac:

Chinasea wrote: »

Deploy the good, the bad and the ugly unemployed off to every corner of the world in their thousands

Your point?

Itwasntme. wrote: »

If Ireland stops giving foreign aid, it stands to lose a lot more in the way of its carefully cultivated reputation in the 'developing' world. A lot of people on here would then ask, "what do we get from them anyway? They take and take without giving." You would be wrong.

You are mostly right, but what carefully cultivated reputation? There is non-tangible goodwill... how much goodwill do we have about the countries who have gifted money to us in the last 50 years? Can you even name them?

Are we really placing the hope of producing goodwill, and that that will somehow rub off on economic investment back here, above that of our economic reputation? Even Greece, as I already said, has decided on a minuscule foreign aid budget in relation to its GNP compared to Ireland - and quite frankly I would be pissed off if Greece was giving lots of money abroad whilst it is still in a position to go completely belly up economically.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 10-12-2012 09:06PM

Ireland is a complete basket case. How much are we receiving in foreign aid???? The government have shown themselves to be unable to manage the countries affairs, surely we should be receiving aid from other countries too?

Grayson · 11-12-2012 11:57AM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Yea, fair paly we cant expect Mugabe to go without his caviar just because we have an unemployment problem:mad:

Because that's exactly what our money goes on. :rolleyes:

There are millions in zimbabwe who depend on food aid to survive. That's where the money goes.

I can't actually believe that people are talking about a return on investment? Seriously, there are hundreds of millions of people who are starving world wide. They live in horrendous conditions and have horrible mortality rates.

And the standard answer here is that we could help them, but what would we get in return.

Is that what this country became thriough the boom? A group of money grabbing, selfish pricks who'd let a baby die because they can't see a return on that investment? I'm sickened, and honestly ashamed to be irish.

speedboatchase · 11-12-2012 12:08PM

Grayson wrote: »

Because that's exactly what our money goes on. :rolleyes:
I can't actually believe that people are talking about a return on investment? Seriously, there are hundreds of millions of people who are starving world wide. They live in horrendous conditions and have horrible mortality rates.

Forgive me for making your face explode with rage but.... as non-colonialists, this should be our government's problem/concern in what way?

eyescreamcone · 11-12-2012 12:26PM

Grayson wrote: »

Because that's exactly what our money goes on. :rolleyes:

There are millions in zimbabwe who depend on food aid to survive. That's where the money goes.

I can't actually believe that people are talking about a return on investment? Seriously, there are hundreds of millions of people who are starving world wide. They live in horrendous conditions and have horrible mortality rates.

And the standard answer here is that we could help them, but what would we get in return.

Is that what this country became thriough the boom? A group of money grabbing, selfish pricks who'd let a baby die because they can't see a return on that investment? I'm sickened, and honestly ashamed to be irish.

7 billion people in the world today.
At what population level do we decide enough is enough??
10 billion? 15 billion?

Ush1 · 11-12-2012 12:34PM

Foreign relations me hole. How many more austerity budgets before foreign aid is looked at?

jaja321 · 11-12-2012 12:37PM

Ush1 wrote: »

Foreign relations me hole. How many more austerity budgets before foreign aid is looked at?

Well it has actually been cut 5 times... by over 32% since 2008

Ush1 · 11-12-2012 12:39PM

jaja321 wrote: »

Well it has actually been cut 5 times... by over 32% since 2008

When we are owing more money day by day, giving away any doesn't make sense. Let individuals pledge aid if they want to, that's their perogative.

Cut foreign aid!

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