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London lucky to survive The Blitz.

2

Comments

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 99,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Meanwhile in Germany




    More people died in the bombing of Hamburg during the last week of July 1943 than died in the 'Blitz'


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 346 ✭✭petersburg2002


    And if De Valera had fallen for Churchill's charms and joined the war effort the Luftwaffe bombers would have made light work of Dublin.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,433 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    And if De Valera had fallen for Churchill's charms and joined the war effort the Luftwaffe bombers would have made light work of Dublin.

    Dublin wasn't worth it. We were strategically useless.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    Piliger wrote: »
    That's what you get when you gas millions of people and start two wars.

    That's somewhat tit-for-tat considering what we're comparing here.

    London was seen as a legitimate target by the German military. Dunkirk had just happened. France had surrendered. Germany was cresting a wave of complete and easy victories around a blitzkrieg offensive. Their entire army, strategy and all their resources were concentrated on blitzkrieg offensive.

    Their wave of bombings on major cities as well as military targets would all have been viewed by the allies as legitimate military targets because the allies held similar views on what legitimate targets were. And in both cases those on the attack were motivated by ending the war very quickly.

    London was seen as a hugely important military city by the Nazis. Dresden was similarly viewed by the allies. The intense campaign around London was maintained to force the hand of the British to sign an armistice to end the bombings. The Germans thought they were hitting targets which as well as destroying British morale would also destroy the British war industry and force Britain to surrender.

    The intense campaign around Dresden was launched to strike a blow at the heart of the German war industry. It was viewed by British intelligence as one of the foremost industrial locations of the Reich.

    Now you can look at it in the larger scale and look how the terms of "legitimate target" was redefined by the allies during the Pacific endgame. But you still have to frame it around a situation where the war needed to be over and the Japanese would not surrender. Hitler would never surrender.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#Military_and_industrial_profile
    Seeking to establish a definitive casualty figure—in part to address propagandisation of the bombing by far-right groups—an independent investigation conducted in 2010 on behalf of the Dresden city council stated that a maximum of 25,000 people were killed, of which 20,100 are known by name.

    The bombing of Dresden is seen as a huge question mark. Were the allies right to do it.
    However you have to look at what was known at the time. Dresden was an industrial city in German territory and troops on the ground were dying daily gaining ground on east and west fronts on a war that was essentially already won yet casualties were still high. Hitler was never going to surrender.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 99,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Lapin wrote: »
    Cool Website.

    It really shows how insiscriminate and shíte the Luftwaffe were.

    My old neck of the woods took a fair hammering but there were no bombs dropped at nearby RAF Hendon. A genuine strategic target.
    You do know that the Luftwaffe were prohibited from attacking cities until an RAF raid on Berlin bombed some civilian areas don't you ?

    And night bombing accuracy at that stage of the war was +/- several miles. Radio beacons and signals helped later, but jamming removed that accuracy too.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 346 ✭✭petersburg2002


    Confab wrote: »

    Dublin wasn't worth it. We were strategically useless.

    Well British mouths needed to be fed. So we potentially had our uses.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    It's phenomenal how many people don't know about the bombing of Dresden. I mean, I didn't previous to reading Slaughterhouse Five by Kurt Vonnegut. It's insane that nobody fully knows the extent of the casualties - numbers seem to be between 130,000 and 300,000, more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined - there were too many refugees escaping the war.

    The bombing of Japan by conventional bombs was even worse than the nuclear attacks - this is a city hit by ordinary bombs, not nuked - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Shizuoka_following_United_States_air_raids.jpg


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15,001 ✭✭✭✭Pepe LeFrits


    heh, all three of my former addresses got pretty close to bullseyed. I knew the first had as the buildings were old with the odd modern house stuck in between, and in the third place there's a huge gap in an otherwise uniformly housed street.

    Strangely, my second address is featured twice in The King's Speech and yet it has the least evidence that it was bombed :p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 346 ✭✭petersburg2002


    goose2005 wrote: »

    The bombing of Japan by conventional bombs was even worse than the nuclear attacks - this is a city hit by ordinary bombs, not nuked - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Shizuoka_following_United_States_air_raids.jpg

    A lot of the Japanese buildings were built in the traditional manner (I.e) wood. The old parts of Tokyo for example. So didn't take more than a few incendiary bombs to set off an inferno.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭purplepanda


    I moved to London when I was a kid, late '60's you could easily tell where the bombs had landed due to the various bombsites not built on & bombsites with buildings built later on in the '50's, 60's & 70's & beyond. Virtually everything else left standing from the war was built in Victorian or Georgian times ;)

    Bombsites were still great fun for youngsters even in the '70's. No wonder the relatives thought me & the brothers were nuts when visiting Ireland :D


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,183 ✭✭✭✭Lapin


    You do know that the Luftwaffe were prohibited from attacking cities until an RAF raid on Berlin bombed some civilian areas don't you ?

    And night bombing accuracy at that stage of the war was +/- several miles. Radio beacons and signals helped later, but jamming removed that accuracy too.

    Yes.

    But I don't see how any of that is relavant to my post. The fact is, London was bombed regardless of when it occured and the fact remains that the bombings were indiscriminate.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    Lapin wrote: »
    Yes.

    But I don't see how any of that is relavant to my post. The fact is, London was bombed regardless of when it occured and the fact remains that the bombings were indiscriminate.

    The bombings were made at night. They were made at night to protect the luftwaffe from being in full view of the RAF.

    The missiles were essentially unguided and hugely inaccurate.

    When the allies were bombing strategic french targets to prepare for d-day less than 10% of the bombs dropped were in any way accurate in terms of their intended targets. If the huge campaign of pre D-day bombings on France was more accurate it would have hugely helped the ground offensive. The pilots were hampered by having to estimate targets with minimal information to hand.

    But the pilots had targets.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,808 ✭✭✭Stained Class


    irish-stew wrote: »
    Seen two that landed within the vancity that my estate was built on. Was built during the 70's/80's so not sure what the Germans were hitting/aiming for during the Blitz.

    Also looked at residential areas that I knew, some where family are currently living, alot that built during Edwardian and Victorian times, ie, before WW2.

    I lived in a Victorian era street & there were no gaps in the terrace of houses where the bomb fell.

    I can only assume that the bomb must have been only a small one & it fell in the middle of the road...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,182 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    That seems like an oddly specific statement to me. Can you tell me where you read that because it raises a POV I have not heard before.

    The battle of britain involved a number of large scale strikes on RAF targets and sea targets.

    The bombed and shutdown radar stations a few times but they could be rebuilt quickly and the Germans didn't realise the strategic impact of them.

    Likewise they never had a full intelligence of where the most strategic targets were to bomb. The aim of the Blitz and the sustained campaign of bombings was to demolish British morale and force them to surrender but London was a huge industrial target for the Germans. As was Liverpool.

    Also the Germans lacked truly effective bombers for this type of campaign and were honed around a style of war which involved a rapidly advancing ground force. As Britain is an island a large scale ground force offensive was not going to happen unless the luftwaffe paved the way.

    The city was destroyed but Londoners weren't lucky. They just would not quit.

    I thought it was not just a well known point of view but an accepted historical fact that the switching of concentration from RAF specific targets to more general retaliatory targets took the pressure off the RAF at a critical time and effectively cost the Luftwaffe the battle.

    Below from one source

    http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2008/August%202008/0808battle.aspx

    The British people look back on this part of the battle as "the desperate days." Looking back later, Churchill said, "In the fighting between Aug. 24 and Sept. 6, the scales had tilted against Fighter Command."


    Just as things were looking grim, Hitler made a critical mistake. He changed Luftwaffe targeting. In August, two German pilots who had flown off course on a night mission dropped their bombs on London. The RAF bombed the Berlin suburbs in reprisal. Germans were shocked and outraged, having been assured by Hitler and Goering that their capital was safe from British bombers. An enraged Hitler on Sept. 5 ordered a change in basic strategy, shifting the Luftwaffe’s focus of attack from British airfields to the city of London.

    That took the pressure off Fighter Command at a critical time. RAF fighter losses fell below the output of replacements. In diverting the offensive from the RAF, the Germans had lost sight of the valid assumption with which they had begun: The key objective was destruction of the RAF. Otherwise, the Sea Lion invasion would not be possible.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Pottler


    I've posted this before - I'd an uncle who was a Luftwaffe bomber pilot flying in the Blitz campaign. He flew 19 missions and was then invalided out due to mental stress.

    Basically, he had a nervous breakdown. According to him, 12 of them would take off from bases in France, flying twin engined light bombers, and 4 or 5 would make it back. Day after day they had to play the odds and after 6 or 7 missions, none of the originals had come back at all, it was all new pilots.

    They were so scared they'd drop their bombs as fast as possible, and wherever it could be construed that "they had tried". Doubt accuracy was too high on the lists - the Me109 escorts had so little fuel left when the return flight was taken into consideration that basically the bombers had no escorts over London - and the RAF were considered rather efficent at shooting down Heinkels..

    He spent the rest of his days as a very fragile minded nervous wreck making rope ornaments for tourists to buy.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,895 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran



    That seems like an oddly specific statement to me. Can you tell me where you read that because it raises a POV I have not heard before.

    The battle of britain involved a number of large scale strikes on RAF targets and sea targets.

    The bombed and shutdown radar stations a few times but they could be rebuilt quickly and the Germans didn't realise the strategic impact of them.

    No, the Germans knew exactly what they were, that's why when the Germans switched their emphasis onto dealing with Fighter Command the radar stations took quite the drubbing.

    I believe Dowding had said after the conflict that Fighter Command would have collapsed within two weeks has the political decision not been made to stop beating up on the fighters and instead beat up the cities


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 794 ✭✭✭bluecode


    There is a WW2 forum for this kind of topic, although it is sometimes inhabited by neo Nazis and apologists for the Third Reich.

    Interesting post from Pottler, not surprising. The Luftwaffe were wasted attacking Britain. As in wasted. Wouldn't have fancied being a Luftwaffe bomber pilot, life expectancy must have been pretty low.

    But no match for the life expectancy of RAF bomber command. 50,000 dead and no medal or until recently a memorial, just because of Dresden. Not even their fault.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Pottler


    I don't think either side covered themselves in glory with the bombing of civilians, bad business whichever way you look at it. The Americans took it up a notch towards the end of the war with their Thunderbolt attack fighters - they basically flew around the German countryside shooting up everything that moved, which was mostly refugees, cows, women hanging out washing and some military targets.


    My old lad said when they saw the first daylight bombing raid, by American bombers, he knew Germany would loose the war - he said the sky was just filled with planes, wave after wave after wave. No way could any power that could unleash that many planes ever be beaten, he knew.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    No, the Germans knew exactly what they were, that's why when the Germans switched their emphasis onto dealing with Fighter Command the radar stations took quite the drubbing.

    I believe Dowding had said after the conflict that Fighter Command would have collapsed within two weeks has the political decision not been made to stop beating up on the fighters and instead beat up the cities

    And the French predicted it in advance as well didn't they... Led to Churchill's famous "Some chicken... Some neck" speech.

    The only explanation I have ever found that makes any sense to me considering the huge strategic importance of those radar feeds to the RAF at that time was that the Germans did not quite understand just how much the British relied on this technology and by extension other technologies and innovations to gain the upper hand. The Germans knew what those targets were. They knew where they were. They were exposed and easy to spot targets on a huge battlefront of coast and they could have been destroyed easily time and again making rebuilding a wasteful and pointless act. They could be rebuilt inside of two months when they were bombed if I recall correctly.

    I think that based on what I have read those targets were under-estimated in terms of how much intelligence they provided as opposed to ignored in favour of randomly killing civilians or ineffectually bombing urban targets.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 289 ✭✭Basil Fawlty


    Our Allies fought and died to protect the life we take for granted today, Dresden may not have been our finest hour but it was unfortunately a fight to the death, us or them. Thats how it was, we can not be expected to feel the way those people did then.

    I for one am grateful to all those who fought to maintain our way of life. To forget it is to allow a chance for it to happen again.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Pottler


    Our Allies fought and died to protect the life we take for granted today, Dresden may not have been our finest hour but it was unfortunately a fight to the death, us or them. Thats how it was, we can not be expected to feel the way those people did then.

    I for one am grateful to all those who fought to maintain our way of life. To forget it is to allow a chance for it to happen again.
    I pretty much agree. War is War, and it's crap, on a thousand levels. I had family fighting on both sides, I've no bias. I admire the bravery of those who fought and died, on both sides. I also think it was an act of brutality to bomb civilians, on both sides. Like I said, there's not much light in it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 975 ✭✭✭genie


    Spare a thought for Rotterdam, where my Mum's family are from. The city centre was all but destroyed during World War Two. :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,808 ✭✭✭Stained Class


    I mentioned before that I lived in London in the '80s.

    As a 21 year old at the time, I often spoke to people who lived thru the Blitz & many veterens of WW2.

    They were mainly in their 60s at the time, so they were very much around the place.

    I was very interested in their stories.

    They came back from the war, had kids etc.. & tried to put it all behind them.

    Their kids came of age in the 1960's & they didn't know anything of what their parents went thru.

    They just went wild & enjoyed the rock 'n roll lifestyle of the '60s & '70s.

    By the time the people that lived thru WW2 felt they wanted to talk about their experiances, their kids were into Flower Power & CND.

    There was a real generation gap going on there, at the time.

    I'm glad I took the time to talk to some of the older people when I lived in London.

    It gave me a good deal of perspective in life & how lucky in life we are now thru their sense of duty.

    Respect.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,954 ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    The fact that London experienced massive suburbanisation and urban sprawl of suburb after suburb of 1920s and 1930s era housing estates saved many lives in the Blitz. Because the population of Greater London was, by 1940, quite low density outside of central London, it ended up saving many lives.

    Unfortunately the denizens of densely packed Continental cities such as Rotterdam, Dresden, Berlin, Stalingrad and Hamburg weren't so lucky.

    Former English poet Laureate John Betejeman was so disgusted by suburban sprawl in the 1930s he even wrote these lines in a poem:

    "Come, friendly bombs, and fall on Slough
    It's not fit for humans now"
    :eek:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 510 ✭✭✭LivelineDipso


    Confab wrote: »
    Dublin wasn't worth it. We were strategically useless.


    So was Dresden. It was simply mass murder.

    The London map is a bit misleading. Incendary bombs are wee firecrackers on paracheuts which fall on buildings and set fire to roofs. The do not land with a bang and a person can pour water on them to put them out. The problem is a load of them landing on the roof of a building and buring it down.

    In many ways more deadly in an urban area that a convestional bomb.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    So was Dresden. It was simply mass murder.

    The London map is a bit misleading. Incendary bombs are wee firecrackers on paracheuts which fall on buildings and set fire to roofs. The do not land with a bang and a person can pour water on them to put them out. The problem is a load of them landing on the roof of a building and buring it down.

    In many ways more deadly in an urban area that a convestional bomb.

    Very inaccurrate description of the incendiary. They were made of phosphorus and putting water on them had no effect except to make them worse, they were designed to cause maximum damage after the high explosive bombs had blown off roofs and smashed windows, the idea being to create a firestorm.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 510 ✭✭✭LivelineDipso


    You are right, buckets of sand could put ONE of them out. Either way they were horrible things.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 510 ✭✭✭LivelineDipso


    Pottler wrote: »
    I don't think either side covered themselves in glory with the bombing of civilians, bad business whichever way you look at it. The Americans took it up a notch towards the end of the war with their Thunderbolt attack fighters - they basically flew around the German countryside shooting up everything that moved, which was mostly refugees, cows, women hanging out washing and some military targets.
    .

    There is a US plane camera vid on YT and you are right. The Yanks blowing up farms and villages. Its disgusting actually. They were mainly Mustangs and Hellcats doing this, Thunderbolts came later.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    keith16 wrote: »

    The firebombing of a city of no strategic interest and full of internal refugees is very much a war crime regardless of what precipitated it.

    It was of strategic interest though, it was a major transit point for troops moving west to east. It also had a number of munitions factories.

    The nature of the bombing and targeting the city centre was highly questionable, nut Dresden wasn't some peaceful little hamlet minding its own business whilst a major war was going on elsewhere.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Pottler


    There is a US plane camera vid on YT and you are right. The Yanks blowing up farms and villages. Its disgusting actually. They were mainly Mustangs and Hellcats doing this, Thunderbolts came later.
    I did struggle a bit to remember the name of the yokes - Mustang sounds more like it! I knew it was somthing vroomey but thunderbolt was edit no.3- I started thinking they were lightnings!:D
    Old lad was on a train when one strafed it, 20mm cannon shell went through the lad sitting beside him and decapitated the poor sod - the pilots basically shot up everything that moved - old lad and everyone else jumped into a canal beside the tracks as the plane came around for another pass, came very close to drowning if others hadn't pulled him out.


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