Do you agree with animals being used in the circus?

franktheplank wrote: »

What hippos can't use carparks now?

That's soooo, like oppressive man.

Very hippo-critical.

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

A horse is designed for jumping and a dog is designed for guarding ... whereas an elephant is not designed to dance, huge difference.

A horse is designed to have a man/woman on its back jumping over 2m high fences?

A dog is designed to guard someones house, guide the blind around a city?

I cant agree with that.

All animals were designed originally to be wild. Some have been more domesticated than other. I would just find it hypocritical for myself to frown upon circuses when my family trains and breeds dogs, and anyone who enjoys a sausage for their brekfeast should see it as hypocritcal as well.

dirtyden wrote: »

A horse is designed to have a man/woman on its back jumping over 2m high fences?

A dog is designed to guard someones house, guide the blind around a city?

I cant agree with that.

All animals were designed originally to be wild. Some have been more domesticated than other. I would just find it hypocritical for myself to frown upon circuses when my family trains and breeds dogs, and anyone who enjoys a sausage for their brekfeast should see it as hypocritcal as well.

A horse has been bred over thousands of years to be a beast of burden - aka they were bred to have the strength to pull carts/carriages, having a rider on it's back is nothing to the weight of what they were designed to pull. And anyone with a bit of sense would not put a heavy rider on a slight horse - for example my horse is a small arabian, I have a strict 12stone weight limit on her because she's so slight, she is well able to carry a lot heavier than 12 stone but I made that choice for her, horses are bred to bear weight.

roadrunner16 wrote: »

if horses were designed for show jumping then why do they not have built in saddles ?

if dog are designed for guarding then why dont they have a bark that shoots bees at intruders ?
what were elephants designed for then ? and what animals have been designed to dance for our amusement ?
thats a load of rubbish.

Repeating myself now - horses and dogs are domesticated over thousands and thousands of years in order to do a 'Job' - aka carrying people/pulling carts/guarding/hearding sheep/etc.

If we domesticated elephants and bred only the best dancing elephants together than I'm sure we'd have some fantastic dancers now ... :pac:

As for dancing animals plenty of them do dance - most exotic birds dance, and the way animals move when they're free can be considered a dance even if it's not by human standards.

dirtyden wrote: »

A horse is designed to have a man/woman on its back jumping over 2m high fences?
.

The Thoroughbred breed of horse did not exist before humans wanted them to race or jump and bred different types of horses for their speed and agility to race, jump, compete.

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

The Thoroughbred breed of horse did not exist before humans wanted them to race or jump and bred different types of horses for their speed and agility to race, jump, compete.

So what you are actually saying is that man exploited the horse for his means so that makes it right? The circus elephant did not exist before man (at least circus men) either.
I am really not getting this logic at all.

I enjoy horse racing, but anyone who tells me that is a natural thing for a horse is deluding themselves.

dirtyden wrote: »

So what you are actually saying is that man exploited the horse for his means so that makes it right? The circus elephant did not exist before man (at least circus men) either.
I am really not getting this logic at all.

I enjoy horse racing, but anyone who tells me that is a natural thing for a horse is deluding themselves.

Horse racing exploits the horse's natural need to run as a herd ... I don't agree with racing personally, I've seen too many times what happens after the race is voer

roadrunner16 wrote: »

and why is riding or breeding a horse for entertainment any better than training an elephant to dance ? , you may argue that the horse suffers less. but that was a decision you made for a horse.
would you ever geld a horse ? is that justified ? how is that less cruel ? horses that we see pulling carts around the city centre , reigned up spending their whole life carrying tourists around. is that fair ? of course not.

We don't ride or breed a horse in a cruel manner (well most people - there are always going to be bad cookies out there) unlike how the elephants are trained in circuses.
Have you even been in a yard - most if not all horses are happy, well fed and are out living their natural life aka in a field with a few friends. They are treated right and in return they offer a service - competing, riding, lesson, etc. My horse was broken in the best way possible, slow and with kindness - she is treated better than me, sees the chiro every 3-6 months, dentist every 6 months, vet for vaccinations every year, farrier every 6-8 weeks. She is happy and healthy - when she sees the bridle she opens her mouth for me and stands patiently while I put the saddle on and mount, she gives me her head afterwards so I can undo her noseband to make it loose after she has worked and will follow me back to the stable without any pulling or leading from my behalf.

Don't tell me my horse is suffering.

gelding is done in a quick and sterile manner that helps to lessen the risk not only to humans but to other horses. most gelded stallions can resume work after 2 weeks.

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

We don't ride or breed a horse in a cruel manner (well most people - there are always going to be bad cookies out there) unlike how the elephants are trained in circuses.
Have you even been in a yard - most if not all horses are happy, well fed and are out living their natural life aka in a field with a few friends. They are treated right and in return they offer a service - competing, riding, lesson, etc. My horse was broken in the best way possible, slow and with kindness - she is treated better than me, sees the chiro every 3-6 months, dentist every 6 months, vet for vaccinations every year, farrier every 6-8 weeks. She is happy and healthy - when she sees the bridle she opens her mouth for me and stands patiently while I put the saddle on and mount, she gives me her head afterwards so I can undo her noseband to make it loose after she has worked and will follow me back to the stable without any pulling or leading from my behalf.

Don't tell me my horse is suffering.

gelding is done in a quick and sterile manner that helps to lessen the risk not only to humans but to other horses. most gelded stallions can resume work after 2 weeks.

That was not meant as a stab at how you care for your horse , apologies if it came across that way, but what I will say is that you are drawing a line in the sand and saying that the treatment of the animals you care for is ok and the others is not , not I am not denying that there is a world of difference between how your horse is treated and how the elephants are treated in the video in the op. but anyone who uses and animal for sport need to take a look at them selves before condemning other for how the treat their animals

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I don't know what you are on about. Comparing domestic animals to Elephants. Is a dog the same as a Elephant etc.

Horses naturally, even thousands of years ago, ran. The stronger and faster animals mated first. So yeah, it;s natural for horses to compete. For nearly all animals really. Except rats and rabbits, they are the sexual deviants of the animal world.

You are purposefully completely missing the point here. Horses may as well be in a circus, be it racing or showjumping. It is just a more socially accepted circus. Elephants have been domesticated for millenia, just not in europe.

Where did I compare a dog to an elephant though?

So because horses run in the wild, it is ok for man to capture them, cage them, whip their backs to make them run faster? Make dogfood out of them if they break a leg?

roadrunner16 wrote: »

That was not meant as a stab at how you care for your horse , apologies if it came across that way, but what I will say is that you are drawing a line in the sand and saying that the treatment of the animals you care for is ok and the others is not , not I am not denying that there is a world of difference between how your horse is treated and how the elephants are treated in the video in the op. but anyone who uses and animal for sport need to take a look at them selves before condemning other for how the treat their animals

I understand completely, it's so hard to come up with anything concrete when it comes to ethical treatment of animals, as you said why is it ok for one type but not another? I'm just trying to point out how humans moulded an animals natural talent - aka horse likes to run, dog likes to hunt, etc for our own use as opposed to forcing an unatural talent onto one - aka teaching horse to walk around on hind legs, or an elephant to dance, if we used elephants like horse and used what they're natural at it would be a lot better than forcing them to dance and to climb ontop of one another and what not.

Scioch wrote: »

You can teach a human to be as obedient and treat them just as well but its still a life as someone's else's plaything. The reason your horse had to be broken in was because she didnt want to be carrying you around on her back. Its the same argument as "I'm good to my slaves". I'm sure you are very nice to your horse and she doesnt suffer, but she doesnt offer you a service, you have trained her and made her provide it. Because this entertains you.

You make a point, but I'm trying to show how the care between the two differs, she gets to do something natural aka trotting, cantering, galloping in a caring manner while a circus elephant is forced to do something very unnatural in a very cruel manner.

Scioch wrote: »

If they treated the circus animals like kings I'd still see it the same. Anything an animal has to be trained to do is unnatural to them. Trotting and galloping might be natural but doing it with someone strapped to their back controlling them isnt. People go on like they are doing their pets and animals a favour by not being cruel to them but they are glossing over the fact that they have subjugated these animals for their own amusement and make them do things they wouldnt ordinarily do to entertain them.

And if you have been around animals as you seem to have been you will also know that for every loving kind person who interacts with them there are many many more people who dont give two shíts about the animal at all.

Exactly why I always say most people and the likes, I know not everyone treats their animals well, I've seen it first hand how horrible people can be to animals, I try to educate people on how to take care of their animals properly but there is so much abuse in the world not only to animals but to kids, women, other human beings in general, I always consider the human race to be a very cruel one personally.

NewApproach wrote: »

I'm sure the animals themselves would prefer to be in the circus rather than dinner for some other species in the food chain.

The last (ever) circus with animals I attended had a hippo and some rhinos. They also tend to have elephants, tigers, lions... all animals that I'm sure would much rather be back in their place in the food chain, right up near the top of it.