How much do you know about Iraq and the US Army??

DEFTLEFTHAND · 01-12-2012 08:02AM

Do these boneheads who joined the army out of school get the GI Bill after their service has ended? Like John Kerry said you either get your act together and go to college or join the army and take a chance. Where does the officer class come into this? Surely America has true military men out there and not only the childish clowns who join on ignorant xenophobic grounds.

Killer Wench · 01-12-2012 08:29AM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Do these boneheads who joined the army out of school get the GI Bill after their service has ended? Like John Kerry said you either get your act together and go to college or join the army and take a chance. Where does the officer class come into this? Surely America has true military men out there and not only the childish clowns who join on ignorant xenophobic grounds.

There are service academies (The Naval Academy, West Point) , Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) and Officer Candidate (or Training) School for those seeking commissions as officers. Sometimes, people enlist and then are selected for officer training.

Seaneh · 01-12-2012 08:35AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

I would be rather concerned about drawing conclusions of commonality from a search. Whilst certainly there were instances of questionable behaviour, that does not imply that they were necessarily common. Might I suggest a truly random sample? There are going to be people you know or have access to who have first-hand experience of what went on in Iraq, from their perspective. Perhaps you should sample and poll them for their thoughts, experiences, and so on. Since you already know them, there is no chance of any bias coming into your sample from searching terminology, or trending results.

By way of such random sample, I offer the photographs ( http://data.primeportal.net/iraq/pictures.htm ) and videos ( http://data.primeportal.net/iraq/videos.htm ) that I took in Iraq 2004-2005. I am also more than happy to answer any direct questions you may have within the limits of my knowledge. If you're really interested, I can probably post up my diary for the year, which I updated as and when I could get to a computer, usually every three days or so.

Examples include...

Interrogating locals http://data.primeportal.net/iraq/chai1.JPG
Soldier telling kids not to report US soldiers abusing their families, or else http://data.primeportal.net/iraq/wiltseykids.JPG
Reaction to a wedding (Video) http://data.primeportal.net/videos/nlm/wedding.MOV
Panic at being surrounded in close proximity by locals http://data.primeportal.net/iraq/kidsfollow.jpg
Driving through the city with no regard for other road users (Video) http://data.primeportal.net/videos/nlm/Mosuldrv.MOV
Running over children with a tank http://data.primeportal.net/iraq/tankkids.JPG
Iraqi attempt to poison us http://data.primeportal.net/iraq/teatank3.JPG
Raiding a house following discovery of an AK-47 on the ground http://data.primeportal.net/iraq/socialcall.jpg
Iraqis chasing our tank away http://data.primeportal.net/iraq/popular.JPG
Young girl faces down a tank. http://data.primeportal.net/iraq/usaftank3.JPG
Angry kids giving us the finger. http://data.primeportal.net/iraq/mosulfam.JPG
Stealing what little food the Iraqis had from them. http://data.primeportal.net/iraq/groceries.JPG
Shooting up the local market http://data.primeportal.net/iraq/market1.JPG
Tieing up Iraqi man. http://data.primeportal.net/iraq/bandaid.JPG
Physical assault on an Iraqi http://data.primeportal.net/iraq/Morrowkid2.JPG
Another attempt at poisoning. This time we tried to poison them back. http://data.primeportal.net/iraq/localmre.JPG
Iraqis rush our trucks. http://data.primeportal.net/iraq/popular1.jpg

Or, you could ignore the sources closest to you....

NTM

Or beyond all that you could look at the over 1 million dead civilians caused by a bogus war, and institutional human rights abuses which have been reposted by several NGO's, hundreds of former service men and media sources and draw your own conclusions.

But hey, that's just another option.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 01-12-2012 08:39AM

Killer Wench wrote: »

There are service academies (The Naval Academy, West Point) , Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) and Officer Candidate (or Training) School for those seeking commissions as officers. Sometimes, people enlist and then are selected for officer training.

I would never take away from the the likes of West Point or the Naval Academy in Maryland. I'm talking about the sign up clients, the young minds easily lead by propaganda, tearaways who join the army for all the wrong reasons. They don't deserve respect, they're cannon fodder and they're too ignorant to realise it.

Grayson · 01-12-2012 09:08AM

Seaneh wrote: »

Or beyond all that you could look at the over 1 million dead civilians caused by a bogus war, and institutional human rights abuses which have been reposted by several NGO's, hundreds of former service men and media sources and draw your own conclusions.

But hey, that's just another option.

And the wikileaks iraq war dump covered thousands of abused. I don't think that included abu gharib.

I actually have genuine respect for soldiers. But I could compare them to priests and the catholic church. Most priests are genuine people who help others. Some abuse children. Most don't and it's a very small percentage that do. But some do. And the church covers it up. I believe the church as an institution is corrupt and cares more about itself than it does about the abused children. And i believe the US army is the same. It's an institution the enables others to commit abuses, doesn't care as long as they don't get caught and covers it up when they do.

Killer Wench · 01-12-2012 09:42AM

So is this special love reserved only for the Army or does it extend to the other 4 branches of the United States Military?

Grayson · 01-12-2012 09:48AM

Killer Wench wrote: »

So is this special love reserved only for the Army or does it extend to the other 4 branches of the United States Military?

Airforce, navy, marines and ??? The PJ's?

Edit: Ahh, the coast guard. I don't think anyone except colombian drug runners dislike the coast guard.

billybudd · 01-12-2012 09:51AM

I know this, not to join one and not plan a holiday in the other.

Killer Wench · 01-12-2012 09:58AM

Grayson wrote: »

Airforce, navy, marines and ??? The PJ's?

Edit: Ahh, the coast guard. I don't think anyone except colombian drug runners dislike the coast guard.

Maybe icebergs and whale hunters.

CruelCoin · 01-12-2012 10:24AM

Hang on a second...

"rummages in cardboard box"

Nope, can't find a single ****.

Pottler · 01-12-2012 11:02AM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I would never take away from the the likes of West Point or the Naval Academy in Maryland. I'm talking about the sign up clients, the young minds easily lead by propaganda, tearaways who join the army for all the wrong reasons. They don't deserve respect, they're cannon fodder and they're too ignorant to realise it.

Go away out of that. The officers set the standards, and they don't let plebs fly attack helicopters either. You can't blame the "common orders" that you are somehow creating.

KyussBishop · 01-12-2012 01:00PM

If you limit peoples experience solely to people in the military who have been in Iraq, they are definitely going to get a biased sample, because naturally a vast majority of them are supportive of the war there.
A far more unbiased sample, would be reputable journalists covering the war, and the Iraqi people (it's their country after all), rather than the military force that invaded them (kind of ridiculous to suggest they'd be unbiased).

I've read a fair bit about Iraq over the years, but in bits and pieces, so I don't recall everything; some highlights though:
- For most of the war, US troops and private contractors have been immune from Iraqi law, able to (literally at times) get away with murder
- Even before the war with Iraq, the country had been under sanctions largely pushed by the US, that killed between 100,000-500,000 children
- At least 100,000 civilians died in the war
- Oh and of course, an easy one to forget...the war was illegal, legitimized using deliberately faked evidence. So basically a war of aggression, which is considered (after WWII) one of the most principally evil acts a country can undertake.
- The war in Iraq has cost around $800 billion so far, but this is a very conservative estimate, and the cost of all the wars may run up to somewhere around $3.5 to $4 trillion

Doubtlessly loads more worth mentioning (particularly surrounding human rights abuses, rendition, and all that), but this is just what comes to me offhand.

Pottler · 01-12-2012 03:19PM

woodoo wrote: »

The soldiers seem to become brutes out there, maybe the army attracts them or maybe they become brutes during war.

Going back in the dawns of time, i did my basic training in wales. On our first go with crappy old sten guns(which were a glorified antique rapid fire pistol) some of the lads were getting seriously aroused. The general attitude was "imagine how many people i can kill with this yoke".

About 20% were genuine psychos you would not turn your back on. 50% were dead sound and 30% were just regular everyday dumb cnuts. I pity the people who have to play with the 20% on a daily basis and I worry about the 30% who got let out in public with anything more deadly than a plastic scissors.:)I made sure never to stand in front of them, basically.

I regarded guns as a heavy pain in the hole I had to carry around with me and clean, and that would be unused 99.9999% of the time.

UCDVet · 01-12-2012 03:23PM

Let's just be grateful the US is busy bringing 'freedom' to brown people and not Ireland.

Individually American's are decent enough. As a whole? Something isn't right with them.

ProfanityURL · 01-12-2012 03:41PM

Speaking to Americans I always introduce the topic carefully in order to judge how they feel about it before I say anything. Some of them can get really defensive about their soldiers "fighting for freedom", especially since lots of people have children over there so they don't want to face the reality that they are placing themselves in danger for no good reasons.

I also find it funny how American's cite the importance of "protecting America's interests abroad". They're basically saying yeah it's honourable for our soldiers to go abroad and kill women and children in order to secure America's energy and economic demands. An American I spoke to told me that one of the problems is that many people convicted of crimes over there are offered to join the army as an alternative to prison, so you end up with a load of violent criminals being trained to kill and handing them automatic weapons.

Tom_Cruise · 01-12-2012 03:45PM

Joining the US army is pretty bad career choice for most. What good comes out of it in the end?

Witcher · 01-12-2012 03:46PM

Tom_Cruise wrote: »

Joining the US army is pretty bad career choice for most. What good comes out of it in the end?

A chance to go to college...it's a lot more expensive there and for many the GI bill is the only way.

Shryke · 01-12-2012 04:15PM

Tom_Cruise wrote: »

Joining the US army is pretty bad career choice for most. What good comes out of it in the end?

That's why most soldiers are recruited from disadvantaged areas, which somewhat lowers the quality of soldier. Lack of knowledge/eduction and all that.

Where To · 01-12-2012 04:21PM

MadsL wrote: »

Says

what exactly? Post Traumatic Stress Disorder causing Amnesia or you thought he was an idiot?

Neither, it says that he didn't particularly remember where he was touring but he particularly remembered where he got a good pint.

UCDVet · 01-12-2012 04:54PM

Shryke wrote: »

That's why most soldiers are recruited from disadvantaged areas, which somewhat lowers the quality of soldier. Lack of knowledge/eduction and all that.

From what I've read, that's not true.

http://www.heritage.org/static/reportimages/360142B8859DD8EDA9D80F008077F3B5.gif

humbert · 01-12-2012 05:03PM

UCDVet wrote: »

From what I've read, that's not true.

http://www.heritage.org/static/reportimages/360142B8859DD8EDA9D80F008077F3B5.gif

This paints a grim picture.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/31/us-army-racism-iraq-afghanistan

Killer Wench · 01-12-2012 05:04PM

Shryke wrote: »

That's why most soldiers are recruited from disadvantaged areas, which somewhat lowers the quality of soldier. Lack of knowledge/eduction and all that.

This is not true.

My father grew up in the segregated South. He didn't have running water in his home until he was in his mid-teens. My grandfather was an alcoholic who didn't stay with any one job for long and my grandmother was working multiple jobs to support her five sons. My dad entered the military just as it was transitioning from a drafted force to an all-volunteer force. It was just at the end of the Vietnam War. He began as an enlisted airman and was selected (due to his high test scores and leadership skills) for a path towards commissioning as an officer. He then spent 20 plus years as an officer in the military.

It's crap to say to that because they are from disadvantaged areas, they are a lower quality soldier. Truthfully, many of those from disadvantaged areas see the military as an escape from a place where their only other options may be joining a gang or dying on the street. Let's be realistic - most of those kids aren't escaping on athletic scholarships which appears to be only way some of you think is acceptable for someone to get a jump in life. The military affords them a regular and consistent salary guaranteed if they perform their duties, they receive housing benefits, and if they have a family, their family will receive educational benefits, reduced or free health care, and stability.

Killer Wench · 01-12-2012 05:07PM

Where To wrote: »

Neither, it says that he didn't particularly remember where he was touring but he particularly remembered where he got a good pint.

He may be suffering from Traumatic Brain Injury which causes memory lapses, stuttered speech, and other problems. It could also be that he saw a gullible person and he lied about serving in the military - unfortunately, many people lie about serving in the military, usually for the free benefits and admiration they receive.

Killer Wench · 01-12-2012 05:12PM

Tom_Cruise wrote: »

Joining the US army is pretty bad career choice for most. What good comes out of it in the end?

Really? Have you talked to most?

UCDVet · 01-12-2012 05:14PM

humbert wrote: »

This paints a grim picture.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/31/us-army-racism-iraq-afghanistan

I agree it's grim - but I don't see anything that directly addresses the claim of 'most soldiers are recruited from disadvantaged areas'.

Manic Moran · 01-12-2012 06:19PM

FionnMcCool87 wrote: »

Didn't know it snowed that much in Iraq

Not much, but it did snow on me in Mosul. There is a ski resort to the North East of there.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Do these boneheads who joined the army out of school get the GI Bill after their service has ended? Like John Kerry said you either get your act together and go to college or join the army and take a chance. Where does the officer class come into this? Surely America has true military men out there and not only the childish clowns who join on ignorant xenophobic grounds.

Leaving aside the 'bonehead' comment (we get it, you don't like US soldiers despite no indication of great experience in that direction), the answer is 'yes.' I am currently using my GI bill for flight training, it will remain valid for several years after I get out.
There have been a number of surveys conducted on motivators to join the military, the desire to go hate on foreigners is somewhere below money, education, service, family tradition, challenge and adventure, and self improvement.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I would never take away from the the likes of West Point or the Naval Academy in Maryland. I'm talking about the sign up clients, the young minds easily lead by propaganda, tearaways who join the army for all the wrong reasons. They don't deserve respect, they're cannon fodder and they're too ignorant to realise it.

What, in your opinion, are the right reasons to join the military, and what indications have you that they do not apply in the case of the typical US recruit?

Tom_Cruise wrote: »

Joining the US army is pretty bad career choice for most. What good comes out of it in the end?

I can't think of many negative repercussions coming to those who complete a term of service without getting wounded or into trouble, so I am curious as to the grounds for your statement. Military service is usually well regarded in the civilian workforce, there is, if nothing else, the perception that an ex serviceman has a modicum of proven discipline and responsibility, and that's just in the private sector. My first job interview in the US, we were talking about our paratrooper training before getting to my IT skills. For civil service, Veteran's Preference can apply by law. The other item is the on the job training. After a term of service as an 88M, you are a qualified big rig truck driver. Do three years as a 15U and join the workforce as a trained and certified helicopter mechanic. Come out of your stint in the 30 series with IT skills. That's just the Army training, nothing to do with the GI Bill.

KyussBishop wrote: »

If you limit peoples experience solely to people in the military who have been in Iraq, they are definitely going to get a biased sample, because naturally a vast majority of them are supportive of the war there.
A far more unbiased sample, would be reputable journalists covering the war, and the Iraqi people (it's their country after all), rather than the military force that invaded them (kind of ridiculous to suggest they'd be unbiased).

This is a reasonable statement, and I said nothing about confining questions and polling to military. If there is an Iraqi or journalist on this board, for example, I think we would all be interested in hearing their personal observations and experiences.

Shryke wrote: »

That's why most soldiers are recruited from disadvantaged areas, which somewhat lowers the quality of soldier. Lack of knowledge/eduction and all that.

The very richest and very poorest regions of America tend to be underrepresented in US military service, the middle class regions slightly over represented. As a general rule, troops who join for education will gravitate towards the support functions (logistics, maintenance, finance etc) while the combat troops are disproportionately filled with the better educated troops who joined for the other reasons like service or adventure and don't feel the need for skills training.

General comment: You know instead of rabbiting on about misconceptions which happen to support your own personal notions, proper research isn't that hard. Or you could just ask me: Whatever my flaws, inaccurate factual answers are not one that I am known for.

NTM

humbert · 01-12-2012 06:44PM

UCDVet wrote: »

I agree it's grim - but I don't see anything that directly addresses the claim of 'most soldiers are recruited from disadvantaged areas'.

Basically it just indicates that they aren't as picky as the used to be.

Killer Wench · 01-12-2012 07:01PM

humbert wrote: »

Basically it just indicates that they aren't as picky as the used to be.

There has always been an element of racists, criminals, and "unsuitables" in the military. Next year will be the 40th anniversary of having an all volunteer force, prior to that, it was by conscription. What's change has been the openness to talk about it.

kowloon · 01-12-2012 08:03PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

There have been a number of surveys conducted on motivators to join the military, the desire to go hate on foreigners is somewhere below money, education, service, family tradition, challenge and adventure, and self improvement.

You forgot the 'chicks dig the uniform' factor. Maybe that's the USMC :P

Storm 10 · 01-12-2012 08:41PM

Where To wrote: »

Got into a cab with a vet last week.

He chats away, 'Oh you're from Ireland, yeah I love the Guinness in Shannon, was there a few times on stopovers, we were doing in tours in . . . . . where the hell was it?. . . . . . Middle?. . . . . . . Britain?. . . . . '

'Iraq?' I says.

'Yeah that's the one buddy'

Says it all really.

Not really, the US Military have bases all in Europe so a stop over would be natural if he mentioned Britain.

How much do you know about Iraq and the US Army??

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