Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 12/13

PRAF · 30-11-2012 04:32PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

That worries me, really does.

What did I tell you about your constant worrying Lloyd, I'm serious, you're gonna end up a grumpy old man. Keep the faith. If this poor run of Rodgers continues then we'll probably end up with Rafa back in charge, with Kenny as DoF, and we'll bring back Moores as chairman. Everything will be rosy in the garden and what the hell, sure Andy Carroll will come back and will bang in 5 hat tricks in a row to win us the Europa League. Happy days

PRAF · 30-11-2012 04:34PM

joe123 wrote: »

The 08/09 season was simply amazing in terms of pressing. It was from the get go, we bullied teams and just took the ball from them. Best football we've ever played imo.

I miss the days of feeling confident we would go out and smash teams. More often than not we did.

Out of curiosity, to those who think Rodgers shouldnt be given time/sacked etc....If you were a Dortmund fan and you saw this inexperienced manager finishing 11th with the Dortmund side. Would you have wanted him sacked too?

And what about Utd fans back in 1990? Fergie was destined for the chop until a good FA cup run turned his fortunes.

opr · 30-11-2012 04:40PM

T-K-O wrote: »

The first words from every manager is time... you bring someone in they start talking about their plan and that they need time to implement.

Sacking BR now would be the dumbest move in football. Ever

Who're these mythical teams in the modern game who give managers time at big clubs while showing nothing on the pitch results wise? If you want time as a manager in the modern game then you either need to have a proven track record of success at a similar level or you need to get results in the short term which enable you to realise the long term. I don't want him sacked but he needs to start showing he's up the job.

The fact of things as they stand is that if Rodgers didn't speak so well, hadn't spent so much time talking about his philosophy and ingratiated himself with giving the youth players a chance all of which is quite cosmetic then far more would be questioning him. He's getting unwavering support from those who didn't back Kenny and now feel they must stand behind Rodgers no matter what happens this season.

The reality is we've 16 points from a possible 42. We're 3 points less at the same stage when that idiot Hodgson was in charge and we haven't beaten anyone above 12th in the table. People talk about it as if the results aren't that bad. It has been one of our worst starts to a campaign EVER as a club.

Opr

Kerrigooney · 30-11-2012 04:41PM

PRAF wrote: »

And what about Utd fans back in 1990? Fergie was destined for the chop until a good FA cup run turned his fortunes.

That's true but Fergie had some pedigree when he joined Utd. He won the Cup winners Cup with Aberdeen and the League if memory serves.

Brendan hasn't won anything of note yet.

I'm not getting on his back here but sometimes all his chatter pisses me off.

You'd think he'd won every honour in the game the way he bladders on sometimes.

billybudd · 30-11-2012 04:44PM

amiable wrote: »

But Liverpool didn't want Ramirez so I don't see your point

It was a joke, thus no point.

Anyone · 30-11-2012 04:45PM

Kerrigooney wrote: »

That's true but Fergie had some pedigree when he joined Utd. He won the Cup winners Cup with Aberdeen and the League if memory serves.

Brendan hasn't won anything of note yet.

I'm not getting on his back here but sometimes all his chatter pisses me off.

You'd think he'd won every honour in the game the way he bladders on sometimes.

And Fergie spent 4 years prior to that at Utd with no success. We now live in a world where people want instant gratification. Fans are looking at how Chelsea and Man City have bought success and want that.

Tusky · 30-11-2012 04:45PM

opr wrote: »

Who're these mythical teams in the modern game who give managers time at big clubs while showing nothing on the pitch results wise? If you want time as a manager in the modern game then you either need to have a proven track record of success at a similar level or you need to get results in the short term which enable you to realise the long term. I don't want him sacked but he needs to start showing he's up the job.

The fact of things as they stand is that if Rodgers didn't speak so well, hadn't spent so much time talking about his philosophy and ingratiated himself with giving the youth players a chance all of which is quite cosmetic then far more would be questioning him. He's getting unwavering support from those who didn't back Kenny and now feel they must stand behind Rodgers no matter what happens this season.

The reality is we've 16 points from a possible 42. We're 3 points less at the same stage when that idiot Hodgson was in charge and we haven't beaten anyone above 12th in the table. People talk about it as if the results aren't that bad. It has been one of our worst starts to a campaign EVER as a club.

Opr

If Rodgers was given the money Kenny was, and we were in our current position, he wouldn't be getting the same level of support from me. You can't expect instant results without a signifigant investment, which hasn't been made. It's one of my main frustrations with the owners. Why give Kenny, a manager who was only in the job a couple of weeks, and was intended to be a stop-gap, so much money to spend, but refuse to open the purse strings for the manager who is supposedly here for the long term?

Back Rodgers in January. Judge him at the end of the season.

SlickRic · 30-11-2012 04:46PM

i don't want Rodgers sacked. not even close. that would be incredibly stupid at this point IMO, considering he hasn't had even one properly backed transfer window.

but there are deficiencies defensively that I'm very worried about.

against opposition that is decent, we more often than not, are open in the middle on counters, because Brendan's entire philosophy is based on being able to keep position high up the pitch in tight circumstances.

if we don't do that, we're naturally open to a direct counter, and if the wingers haven't tucked in, it's even worse.

the tactic works for Barcelona, because the players there are insanely good at keeping the ball, and they're insanely fit, as well as coached excellently. they swarm like Benitez's team of 08/09. but even with that, you still see Barca giving away terrible goals because they get left 2 on 2, 3 on 3, or are even outnumbered on the counter.

Barcelona became the best team in the world, more because of their defensive strategy, and being so, so fit, above any of the tippy-tappy stuff they're famous for.

if one of the greatest passing teams in the history of the world give away stupid goals as a result of this strategy, then you can be sure we're going to continue to give away goals if we don't improve quickly. and Barca have the luxury, remember, of being able to score 2, 3, 4, 5 goals a match.

we don't.

i don't have the solution, but more often than not, i'm scared shítless whenever teams counter us.

Turtyturd · 30-11-2012 04:46PM

Squ wrote: »

Get Harry till Christmas, Kenny till the end of the year, then Clarke till Pep answers the call.

I think we could fit Kenny in again between Clarke and Pep.

joe123 · 30-11-2012 04:48PM

opr wrote: »

Who're these mythical teams in the modern game who give managers time at big clubs while showing nothing on the pitch results wise? If you want time as a manager in the modern game then you either need to have a proven track record of success at a similar level or you need to get results in the short term which enable you to realise the long term. I don't want him sacked but he needs to start showing he's up the job.

The fact of things as they stand is that if Rodgers didn't speak so well, hadn't spent so much time talking about his philosophy and ingratiated himself with giving the youth players a chance all of which is quite cosmetic then far more would be questioning him. He's getting unwavering support from those who didn't back Kenny and now feel they must stand behind Rodgers no matter what happens this season.

The reality is we've 16 points from a possible 42. We're 3 points less at the same stage when that idiot Hodgson was in charge and we haven't beaten anyone above 12th in the table. People talk about it as if the results aren't that bad. It has been one of our worst starts to a campaign EVER as a club.

Opr

14 league games in and people are on his back. Most games we have been pretty good too and deserved more. Alot which can be contributed to the fact we dont have an out an out striker so we have to rely on Suarez to do it all for us.

The truly disapointing league displays that spring to mind are the Arsenal and West Brom game and even for the west brom game we got sucker punched by Geras goal.

Plus we are missing our best midfielder since the start of the season.

And the use of youth is not cosmetic either.

Francie Barrett · 30-11-2012 04:51PM

hefferboi wrote: »

Yes, I think so. I think Suso will be unreal when played behind the striker or the furthest forward of a midfield trio.

I have been most impressed with Suso when he's played in the attacking midfield role. I think it's his future.

Chucky the tree · 30-11-2012 04:51PM

In Rafa first year he conceded 41 goals, worse than the season before when he took over. He had about 6 clean sheets in that season, we've 4 already this season. He was allowed implement his system and it worked the following years but people are being pretty crazy if they expected us to play like Rafa team during his 3rd or 4th year in charge.

At the moment we don't have the players to do be able to press consistently. Sterling is to young and doesn't have the stamina, Gerrard's legs are done which is the biggest problem. You can't have two of your midfielder pressing while the other is just wandering about.

billybudd · 30-11-2012 04:52PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What's pathetic is that we have to struggle on for another year or so before he gets dumped out on his ass out of obligation or concerns like 'you have to give the manager time', etc.

On a general level, people are obsessed about what teams do with the ball and it short circuits their ability to assess other aspects of a team's fortunes or performance.

People like this pass, pass, pass, pass it back and start again rubbish. I get that - it's popular these days. But it shouldn't be distracting from how porous we are defensively; our inability to apply pressure high up the pitch as a unit; what we're doing / not doing from set pieces. Basically all the little details that made us a nightmare opponent for years under Benitez and stretches under Houllier.

Leaving aside all the club stuff, people are really codding themselves if they say we look well coached with a straight face on.

Yeah that is what is really annoying, people saying how well we are playing this year: were not playing that well and if we are it is in patches, i have been to two games at Anfield this year and we were ripped to shreds in both and one thing that struck me was the lack of coaching to an co-hesive manner.

Not to harp on about Rafa but last sundays game chel v man city although not great you could sea from midfield to defence to goalkeeper every player knew what to do and every player stuck to the plan and although they where not great in attack they looked really solid and organised at the back, all this with just Three days planning by Rafa, thats the difference in my opinion between BR and RB.

Say what you want about systems but any successful team works from the back upwards.

PRAF · 30-11-2012 04:57PM

SlickRic wrote: »

i don't want Rodgers sacked. not even close. that would be incredibly stupid at this point IMO, considering he hasn't had even one properly backed transfer window.

but there are deficiencies defensively that I'm very worried about.

against opposition that is decent, we more often than not, are open in the middle on counters, because Brendan's entire philosophy is based on being able to keep position high up the pitch in tight circumstances.

if we don't do that, we're naturally open to a direct counter, and if the wingers haven't tucked in, it's even worse.

the tactic works for Barcelona, because the players there are insanely good at keeping the ball, and they're insanely fit, as well as coached excellently. they swarm like Benitez's team of 08/09. but even with that, you still see Barca giving away terrible goals because they get left 2 on 2, 3 on 3, or are even outnumbered on the counter.

Barcelona became the best team in the world, more because of their defensive strategy, and being so, so fit, above any of the tippy-tappy stuff they're famous for.

if one of the greatest passing teams in the history of the world give away stupid goals as a result of this strategy, then you can be sure we're going to continue to give away goals if we don't improve quickly. and Barca have the luxury, remember, of being able to score 2, 3, 4, 5 goals a match.

we don't.

i don't have the solution, but more often than not, i'm scared shítless whenever teams counter us.

I'd be a lot more worried about the goals except for the fact that a lot of them were down to very unusual individual mistakes. Even at that, we're not exactly bad defensively. We've average defensively. Only 7 out of 19 teams have meaner defences than us. The problem is at the other end, not enough goals.

Leiva · 30-11-2012 04:57PM

Right this how I see it.

the next 6 games are crucial for Rodgers future.

Yes he hasn't been backed like previous mangers.
Yes he is still installing his style/philosophy.
Yes our opening fixtures have been tough.
Yes he needs time.

but

Other sides which are above us in the table are now meeting the tougher teams so I expect them to be dropping points.
Our coming schedule of games has the opportunity to pick up points written all over it. If we don't Rodgers is in serious hot water, no two ways about it.

The honeymoon is well and truly over for him, and by looking at the tone of discussions here and on other Internet forums that is obvious.

opr · 30-11-2012 04:57PM

Tusky wrote: »

If Rodgers was given the money Kenny was, and we were in our current position, he wouldn't be getting the same level of support from me. You can't expect instant results without a signifigant investment, which hasn't been made. It's one of my main frustrations with the owners. Why give Kenny, a manager who was only in the job a couple of weeks, and was intended to be a stop-gap, so much money to spend, but refuse to open the purse strings for the manager who is supposedly here for the long term?

Back Rodgers in January. Judge him at the end of the season.

I would argue that the current first eleven Rodgers has is better than the one Kenny had last season. I know this was Kenny's own fault in terms of the purchases he made but it still doesn't change that fact in my eyes. I think another manager would have gotten far more out of the squad we currently have even without Lucas. The way in which the midfield has been constructed and players/positions for instance has been at times baffling.

I agree with the backing of the manager. I'm hoping it isn't a money thing in terms of backing the manager but one of the rules of moneyball in that you shouldn't back a new manager heavily straight away which the owners have seen born out with Kenny. I think if they do go on to back him in subsequent windows the lack of funds to begin with will have been an invaluable learning tool as it has meant Rodgers has really had to get to know the squad and youth players with time to mull over properly where the squad needs investment. I'm giving the owners and awful lot of credit in that scenario but it's the last shred of hope I'm clinging to at the moment

Opr

T-K-O · 30-11-2012 04:58PM

opr wrote: »

Who're these mythical teams in the modern game who give managers time at big clubs while showing nothing on the pitch results wise? If you want time as a manager in the modern game then you either need to have a proven track record of success at a similar level or you need to get results in the short term which enable you to realise the long term. I don't want him sacked but he needs to start showing he's up the job.

The fact of things as they stand is that if Rodgers didn't speak so well, hadn't spent so much time talking about his philosophy and ingratiated himself with giving the youth players a chance all of which is quite cosmetic then far more would be questioning him. He's getting unwavering support from those who didn't back Kenny and now feel they must stand behind Rodgers no matter what happens this season.

The reality is we've 16 points from a possible 42. We're 3 points less at the same stage when that idiot Hodgson was in charge and we haven't beaten anyone above 12th in the table. People talk about it as if the results aren't that bad. It has been one of our worst starts to a campaign EVER as a club.

Opr

I agree with most of what you say. There is so much rubbish in this thread it's easy to get lost. I can only speak for myself. Just like BR I supported Kenny.

You seem to react to BR like those other posters you speak of did with Kenny??

The situation we find ourselves is not only down to the manager. I am under no illusion of the dire start we have made to the season. However 13/14 games into the season with a new manager is early doors in my opinion.

Rodgers has a lot of grand ideas and he expresses them in an unusual fashion. This could be great and he can possibly take the club forward. I will back him but not unconditionally.. My glass is half full for now....

darced · 30-11-2012 04:58PM

This post has been deleted.

skywalker · 30-11-2012 05:00PM

Knex. wrote: »

Just on those transfer targets posted above.

All of them are pretty young midfielders but Holtby is the only one I'd have much knowledge on. As for Merkel, has anyone even seen him play a game yet? He hardly ever gets a look in with Genoa as far as I can tell, perhaps I'm wrong.

Clasie I've seen play once this season with Feyenoord so I've virtually no idea on what type of player he is. Some references to him being the "Dutch Xavi", which if is the case then its seems Rodgers wants to make LFC into a tribute Xavi band having already signed the Welsh imitation.

Maybe Ade (still weird seeing him as Sahin ) or Kess could give a quick synopsis of what he's like?

Lucky Holtby is an interesting one. Wasn't it said on here that his father is a die hard Evertonian? Wonder would that have any effect on him joining.

He has stated, or at least his agent did I think, that he has received offers from England recently, and as far as I know I think his contract is out in the next 6 months or so. Doubt he'd be on a lot at Schalke either as it was his first real professional contract.

He's primarily an AM, don't think I've ever seen him play anywhere else, so not really a replacement for Henderson in that regard I would think. A better player right now, probably in all honesty, but I'd have my reservations over how good he could be for Liverpool if he did join. I would think the low fee and wages is why we would be in for him as there is definitely better AMs out there.

Huntelaar, Draxler and Farfan are the players I really would love to get off Schalke.

Just on Holtby, I dont know how good a player he is, Ive heard positive things, but is signing another promising young AM really what we need right now, we already have Shelvey, Suso, Sahin & Gerrard competing for gametime in that position.

Id consider any strengthening there to be an indication we've no intention of keeping Sahin at the end of the season, which unless the performances improve, I dont really have a problem with. Very disappointed in what (admittedly little) Ive seen of him so far.

opr · 30-11-2012 05:01PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

In Rafa first year he conceded 41 goals, worse than the season before when he took over. He had about 6 clean sheets in that season, we've 4 already this season. He was allowed implement his system and it worked the following years but people are being pretty crazy if they expected us to play like Rafa team during his 3rd or 4th year in charge.

At the moment we don't have the players to do be able to press consistently. Sterling is to young and doesn't have the stamina, Gerrard's legs are done which is the biggest problem. You can't have two of your midfielder pressing while the other is just wandering about.

Comparisons with Rafa are stupid. He had already proven himself at the kinda of level needed. We're currently working to a large degree off blind faith with Rodgers.

Opr

PRAF · 30-11-2012 05:03PM

Leiva wrote: »

Right this how I see it.

the next 6 games are crucial for Rodgers future.

Yes he hasn't been backed like previous mangers.
Yes he is still installing his style/philosophy.
Yes our opening fixtures have been tough.
Yes he needs time.

but

Other sides which are above us in the table are now meeting the tougher teams so I expect them to be dropping points.
Our coming schedule of games has the opportunity to pick up points written all over it. If we don't Rodgers is in serious hot water, no two ways about it.

The honeymoon is well and truly over for him, and by looking at the tone of discussions here and on other Internet forums that is obvious.

Yep, agree with that. Now's the time to put a run together, starting on Sunday (fingers crossed!)

Chucky the tree · 30-11-2012 05:03PM

opr wrote: »

Comparisons with Rafa are stupid. He had already proven himself at the kinda of level needed. We're currently working to a large degree off blind faith with Rodgers.

Opr

I know. That's why I was surprised to see people bang on how the team performed under rafa when we are talking about Rodgers.

LuckyLloyd · 30-11-2012 05:06PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I know. That's why I was surprised to see people bang on how the team performed under rafa when we are talking about Rodgers.

Ah Chucky, a smart man so you are.

Leaving aside what we did under Rafa; you happy with how we are pressing under Rodgers when this is a supposed strength of his? Infact, are you satisfied at all with how organised we are without the ball through the team? Let me guess, players like Gerrard are the prime culprits in how bad we look in these areas, right?

billybudd · 30-11-2012 05:06PM

opr wrote: »

Comparisons with Rafa are stupid. He had already proven himself at the kinda of level needed. We're currently working to a large degree off blind faith with Rodgers.

Opr

Not according to the English media. Rafa is crap.

Chucky the tree · 30-11-2012 05:11PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Ah Chucky, a smart man so you are.

Leaving aside what we did under Rafa; you happy with how we are pressing under Rodgers when this is a supposed strength of his? Infact, are you satisfied at all with how organised we are without the ball through the team? Let me guess, players like Gerrard are the prime culprits in how bad we look in these areas, right?

I said it already

Chucky the tree wrote: »

At the moment we don't have the players to do be able to press consistently. Sterling is to young and doesn't have the stamina, Gerrard's legs are done which is the biggest problem. You can't have two of your midfielder pressing while the other is just wandering about.

It's not Gerrards fault though. I seriously question Rodgers intelligence if he felt a 32 year old Gerrard could press opposition constantly for a full 90 minutes. Do you honestly believe he's capable of doing that?

LuckyLloyd · 30-11-2012 05:19PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

It's not Gerrards fault though. I seriously question Rodgers intelligence if he felt a 32 year old Gerrard could press opposition constantly for a full 90 minutes. Do you honestly believe he's capable of doing that?

Gerrard shouldn't be where he is. And no, it doesn't reflect well on Rodgers that he is being played in that role when idiots like myself can see his glaring unsuitability for it.

missingtime · 30-11-2012 05:25PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Gerrard shouldn't be where he is. And no, it doesn't reflect well on Rodgers that he is being played in that role when idiots like myself can see his glaring unsuitability for it.

The Gerrard Situation is a lot tricker though Lloyd. We don't have Van Gaals balls to make that decision.

Only one man got the best out of Gerrard in playing him in his most effective position and when he did Gerrard came out and talked too much about wanting to play in his preferred position.

That has to be rolling around in Rodgers head.

Chucky the tree · 30-11-2012 05:26PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Gerrard shouldn't be where he is. And no, it doesn't reflect well on Rodgers that he is being played in that role when idiots like myself can see his glaring unsuitability for it.

Not sure who should be there instead really. I wouldn't trust Shelvey to consistently press either and Sahin best position isn't as the attacking midfielder despite Rodgers playing him there. When Lucas is back and if Gerrard is still ambling around in the centre of midfield I'd disappointed in Rodgers then.

LuckyLloyd · 30-11-2012 05:31PM

missingtime wrote: »

The Gerrard Situation is a lot tricker though Lloyd. We don't have Van Gaals balls to make that decision.

Only one man got the best out of Gerrard in playing him in his most effective position and when he did Gerrard came out and talked too much about wanting to play in his preferred position.

That has to be rolling around in Rodgers head.

A manager who doesn't have the balls to select Gerrard in an appropriate position (i.e. not as a deep lying central midfielder) is probably out of his depth managing Liverpool.

Tusky · 30-11-2012 05:35PM

opr wrote: »

I would argue that the current first eleven Rodgers has is better than the one Kenny had last season. I know this was Kenny's own fault in terms of the purchases he made but it still doesn't change that fact in my eyes. I think another manager would have gotten far more out of the squad we currently have even without Lucas. The way in which the midfield has been constructed and players/positions for instance has been at times baffling.

I agree with the backing of the manager. I'm hoping it isn't a money thing in terms of backing the manager but one of the rules of moneyball in that you shouldn't back a new manager heavily straight away which the owners have seen born out with Kenny. I think if they do go on to back him in subsequent windows the lack of funds to begin with will have been an invaluable learning tool as it has meant Rodgers has really had to get to know the squad and youth players with time to mull over properly where the squad needs investment. I'm giving the owners and awful lot of credit in that scenario but it's the last shred of hope I'm clinging to at the moment

Opr

If Rodgers first 11 is better than Kenny's then that can not be used as a stick to beat Rodgers with. Kenny was given enough money to almost totally revamp the squad - he failed on unprecedented levels in that regard. Many of the plaers Rodgers is utilising to great effect this season, were available to Kenny last season. You could argue that Suso, Sterling et all were not ready to play so many minutes, fair enough, but they could have played a bit-part.

Kenny underused the likes of Shelvey, Maxi, Bellamy, as well as the younger players. On top of that, he bought badly. If Kenny's squad was worse than Rodger's, he only has himself to blame.

People seem to be ignoring some of the good things Rodgers is doing too. Lots of players have improved under him. Enrique, Sterling, Suso, Shelvey, Wisdom and Suarez are all better than they were last season.

Rodgers inherted a poor squad, and was not given enough money to adequately improve it. Results have been disappointing, but it's even more disappointing to see people calling for his head before December.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 12/13

Comments