Higgins sets out his vision of multicultural Ireland

conorhal wrote: »

Where did I say headscarves?

It absolutely constitues whataboutery. I didn't suggest for a moment that other cultures don't have undesirable traits, what I said was, multiculturalism has, for too long, been an excuse not to address them in minority comunities.


"...recognising that there is no need to demand assimilation of others is a first step."

You've gone from 'two way street' there to 'no need to integrate' in one short step. I never said they had to give up everything, but I do want the obviously incompatible elements of Islamic culture to clearly addressed.

You do realise that there is a vast difference between integrate - as in, live together, interact in a positive way - and assimilate, which would mean stop doing everything you've done so far, drop your style of clothes, your language, your religion, your heritage, the lot.

I do advocate integration, and I do see it as a two way street. I don't expect people to dress the way I prefer, and by the same token I expect them to respect my own choice of garment in exactly the same way. I do want people to communicate, to interact, to live together in the community, but integration means that just as the newcomers have to accept and respect the locals, so the locals should accept and respect newcomers.

I think there are several realities out there : There is the official side, where as you rightly pointed out people in charge might turn a blind eye to crimes and unacceptable behaviour as the individual in question belongs to a minority, be it Muslim or Traveller or what have you. Unacceptable.
Then there is public opinion, demanding that minorities and people from different backgrounds dress a certain way and live a certain way. Again, unacceptable.
And finally, you've got the minorities and ethnic groups themselves. Some of them are making an effort to integrate and may have a hard time coming to terms with the demands of public opinion.
Others may not try at all, and may be accommodated in that by the authorities.
Ideally, neither should happen.

And I think it's high time to stop using multi-culturalism as an excuse or a bad word. Fact is, the world is more mobile than it ever was, and immigration will not stop just because people don't like it.
Trying to force people to assimilate, as has been done in the past in several European countries, will turn them into a ticking time bomb.

It's up to us to handle it like responsible adults and not like spoiled children.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

You seem to be focussing on Muslims here. Higgins was talking about Multiculturalism yet you focus on Muslims. Why?

Because
A) Higgins made his speech at the Islamic Center in Dublin
and
Islamic migrants tend to be one the least integrated section of society in Europe.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Lol.

It's not funny, it's actually shocking how far we bend over backwards to be accomodating, here have a good 'LOL' at this.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...e-1326485.html

In this case a suspended sentence was handed down to a butcher that allowed a child bleed to death during a ritual circumcision, what was the response to this?

"The trial judge, Kevin Haugh, told the jury not to bring their "white, western values" to bear upon their deliberations. Describing the case as a clash between two cultures, he added: "This is a relatively recent matter that Ireland will have to deal with now that we have a significant migrant population. You are not asked whether this form of procedure is acceptable in Ireland. If you start thinking on those lines, you are doing Mr Igbinidion a great injustice."

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Who's saying they are? Most people in Ireland are extremely uncomfortable with genital mutilation of both boys and girls.

We don't seem that concerned actually:

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=14486
"More than 2,500 women and girls living in Ireland are estimated to have undergone female genital mutilation (FGM), according to new research by AkiDwA, a national network of African women living in Ireland.

The number was described as a ‘conservative estimate’

Number of prosectuions for the brutalization and mutilation of young girls?.... nil.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Source?

Eh... Bradford? Or any of the multitudes of Bradfords across Europe.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The vast majority of non-typical Irish are integrated.

Yes they are. Why though?

I'd argue that it's down to the common points of interest and interaction that successfully integrate these immigrants, some seamlessly like UK migrants.
Others like the Poles integrate fairly well also because they have many common points of interaction with the social institutions of our nation which helps to foster integration. You see them in the churches, the pubs, the workplace at the match, and all the places you rarely if ever see Islamic migrants who have very few points of interaction with the rest of broader society, especially if they are women.

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Didn't he call a far-right republican a "typical American wanker?"

Does that not count as bigotry:S

No, he just called him a "wanker". He actually had a lot of god things to say about the Americans, short version is here, long version is next to it on youtube. And Higgins was right, Graham is a wanker.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

You do know that there are 13 Million Muslims in the EU? Germany and France have large Muslim populations and yet they are relatively stable, free places.

Both Merkel and Sarkozy declared multiculturalism a failure in Germany and France. Both countries have massive problems and many many no-go areas. Same in Sweden/Denmark but they are too stubborn to accept failure.

El Weirdo wrote: »

He was speaking at the Islamic Cultural Centre.

That is what prompted my question. You never really hear of similar speeches to Travellers, Polish or other groups.
It seems to me that the term "multiculturalism" means (or have come to mean) Western culture vs Muslim culture.

Nodin wrote: »

Multiculturalism has never, ever been practised in France.

Goddamn newspapers gets it wrong again
http://www.france24.com/en/20110210-multiculturalism-failed-immigration-sarkozy-live-broadcast-tf1-france-public-questions
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/8317497/Nicolas-Sarkozy-declares-multiculturalism-had-failed.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0212/1224289636274.html

but yeah they practise "assimilation".

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Nice to the President taking the lead on this issue.

"President Michael D Higgins has said the Government should, during its EU presidency, encourage “a long overdue understanding” necessary to remove ignorance and misunderstanding that can lead to “incipient forms of racism”.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1129/1224327258954.html

Instead of talking rubbish perhaps he could get Saint Mary Robinson to give back her big pension seeing she didnt even finish her stint as President or is she protected from criticism. Of course being a Labour Party supporter herself and Higgins are always correct in their opinions and feel free to lecture the rest of us.

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Thanks, had typical stuck in my head for some strange reason.

Aye he let himself down badly. Michael Graham is an intelligent man, I've got no time for his politics but I respect his intellect, he believes in what he says and articulates himself well in debate.

Higgins godfather of psuedo intellectuals everywhere was made to look foolish and had to resort to insults. Graham to his credit was a gentleman and didn't engage in childish namecalling, he showed great restraint, I would have lashed out at him and brought up the NY Times review of his book of poetry.