Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 12/13

LuckyLloyd · 29-11-2012 07:44AM

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

With all this talk of Kenny, am i in the minority in thinking that Steve Clarke was the real manager last season and Kenny was just the figurehead?

No doubt he had a big influence.

K-9 · 29-11-2012 07:44AM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Kenny is a very agree-able sort of guy, To suggest he had the only input
is silly , And he is likely to give in when discussing players with Comolli, Likely to come to a mutual agreement to
go for that player on recommendation of others, But no way was Kenny the one negotiating the transfer fee and the amount paid ,
Reason Comolli left club,
Plus all of Kennys signing are still valuable players,

Suarez --- 40 million
Henderson-10 million
Downing---10 million
Carroll
15 million
Enrique----12 million

Not as if that money is down the drain,

Comolli isn't at other clubs to pay that money.

Why would Carroll be worth £15 Million? Because we paid £35 Million? His market value was about £15-20 Million then. We'll be lucky to get half that market value and if you think I'm wrong, tell me why, name me one reason why he's worth £15 Million based on his near 2 years here and at West Ham.

The other figures are too high as well.

LuckyLloyd · 29-11-2012 07:52AM

event wrote: »

but he didnt.
So what would your expectations have been when the season started, 4th?

With Kenny Dalglish in charge, your expectations are a challenge at the right end of the table / winning cups or both.

My expectations at the start of the season would have been a rekindling of the league form we enjoyed during his first few months in charge and a consequent assualt on the top four. I can bet you that would have been his objective too, and everything he did or said would be based around it.

T-K-O · 29-11-2012 08:03AM

whatawaster wrote: »

Talk of "dropping" Sterling are absolute nonsense.

Rest him, yes. But he was absolutely fine this evening. He did some good things, and some bad things. He was in and out of the game. That's almost any winger in the PL for you.

That exactly my point. Also we have no replacements. Too many senior players are not up to it. Gerrard and Sterling should rotate. That will leave an attacking option from the bench.

The squad is pretty average

event · 29-11-2012 08:33AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

With Kenny Dalglish in charge, your expectations are a challenge at the right end of the table / winning cups or both.

My expectations at the start of the season would have been a rekindling of the league form we enjoyed during his first few months in charge and a consequent assualt on the top four. I can bet you that would have been his objective too, and everything he did or said would be based around it.

but kenny is not in charge

perhaps ye will have an assault on the top four, near the end of the year?

Mr Alan · 29-11-2012 09:46AM

Event, no I don't hope that's the case. I hope Rodgers goes on a great run of results in our relatively easy run of fixtures coming up & we get up to a position where an excellent second half of the season means we've a spotting chance at causing an upset & nabbing a top 4 slot.

Tipsy McSwagger · 29-11-2012 10:09AM

I love Lucas and can't wait to see him back, but Lucas doesn't score or create goals.

Cartman78 · 29-11-2012 10:09AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

With Kenny Dalglish in charge, your expectations are a challenge at the right end of the table / winning cups or both.

My expectations at the start of the season would have been a rekindling of the league form we enjoyed during his first few months in charge and a consequent assualt on the top four. I can bet you that would have been his objective too, and everything he did or said would be based around it.

What would you have been basing these hypothetical expectations on exactly?? The Rumbelows Cup victory?? The run to the FA Cup final?

Maybe if he'd been able to hang on to Kuyt and Bellamy for another season and maybe if they'd been able to chip in with a few goals here and there to paper over the cracks we might have a few more points than we do now. And maybe the hoofing up to Big Andy and hoping it might bounce off him towards the goal might have started to pay even more dividends.

Would we have a better chance finishing higher in the league with Kenny in charge this season??? Possibly, maybe even probably.

Would we have been building for the medium to long term in a meaningful way??? Not at all imho.

B-Rod has a helluva lot to prove and the jury is still out in a big way but the performances are encouraging even if the results haven't matched everyone's hopes and expectations

jaykay74 · 29-11-2012 10:14AM

Cartman78 wrote: »

B-Rod has a helluva lot to prove and the jury is still out in a big way but the performances are encouraging even if the results haven't matched everyone's hopes and expectations

B-Rod

Yakult · 29-11-2012 10:17AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu3VTngm1F0

T-K-O · 29-11-2012 10:19AM

US version how fitting

LuckyLloyd · 29-11-2012 10:20AM

event wrote: »

perhaps ye will have an assault on the top four, near the end of the year?

Mr Alan wrote: »

I hope Rodgers goes on a great run of results in our relatively easy run of fixtures coming up & we get up to a position where an excellent second half of the season means we've a spotting chance at causing an upset & nabbing a top 4 slot.

2ppg from here on in would leave us with 64 points. As such, there will be no assualt on the top four this year, sorry.

LuckyLloyd · 29-11-2012 10:26AM

Cartman78 wrote: »

What would you have been basing these hypothetical expectations on exactly?? The Rumbelows Cup victory?? The run to the FA Cup final?

Those would have been the expectations. If he was given another year everyone would have held to him a 'challenge for the top four through the season or walk when its over' standard. And rightly so.

So he was chopped, an inexperienced manager was brought in who would be delighted to have the job, wages were slashed and the noises from the top were changed to 'CL by 2016'.

A mere 12 months ago, the word from the top was '4th is the primary objective'. Ye can blame Kenny till the cows come home lads, but it is crystal clear that our standards and expectations have dropped significantly. Not an environment likely to breed success right now.

Also, re Sterling: HE'S 17!!

Play Assaidi instead of him, move Gerrard to the right sided slot, have Downing on the left more.

I don't care what you do, just stop playing a 17 year old kid week in, week out. He needs a break. People want to talk about short term thinking? Keep starting Sterling and his top flight career may be very short indeed.

Jayob10 · 29-11-2012 10:29AM

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

With all this talk of Kenny, am i in the minority in thinking that Steve Clarke was the real manager last season and Kenny was just the figurehead?

Clarke isn't automatically a top manager IMO, by virtue of how West Brom are doing. Like Rodgers, lets judge him at the end of the season.

Alan Pardew and George Burley had their moments in the top 5 to remember. Whether he can sustain it, and repeat it in following seasons will determine whether he is a really good manager.

Morzadec · 29-11-2012 10:30AM

Thought we deserved a point yesterday. Another frustrating game where as usual I feel we didn't get our just desserts.

Problems are as usual:

1. Poor individual error costing a goal - Reina should have done much better for the free-kick

2. Lack of a cutting edge up front. As has been said we are over-relying on Suarez. We are also over-relying on young Sterling who is only 17. Enrique has been good the last few matches but it speaks volumes when a left-back converted to left mid is one of our biggest attacking threats. We need at least one quality signing in the front 3. Hopefully that is Walcott and not Sturridge.

3. Poor refereeing decisions going against us. Don't want to sound like a whinger, but we have had horrific luck this year and I can fully understand Ridgers frustration - he must feel like there's a curse on the team. For those pointing at Rodgers points total, we should be 4 points better off if Enrique's goal against Swansea and Suarez's against Everton weren't wrongly ruled out. Yesterday, who knows, but it is a clear dive from Dempsey for the 2nd goal and while Gerrard's penalty appeal wasn't stonewall, it is usually given. Similar to the United game - we can't say what would have happened for sure, but in a close game like yesterday these 2 key decisions going against you is likely to cost you the result.

I really hope the panic stations don't kick in and we have patience and give Rodgers time. The man can't control these decisions that keep going against us. I'd be worried if we were having no possession, or playing badly, but the fact is we are dominating long spells of matches. We aren't excellent, but we aren't bad either. An effective finisher added to the front 3 could make us look a lot better and make us win a lot more games without really changing the overall performance of the team. The poor refereeing decisions can't last forever (I hope) and hopefully in January we address the attack issue. We need to get to January within 4 or 5 points of the top 4 contenders. I'm not going to rule us out yet for 4th (I know some might laugh at me for this) - we should really be up there with them at the moment. It's going to be really difficult now considering how far we are behind, but we have a nice little run coming up.

Like I said if we can get to January still somewhat in the mix then who knows what might happen. I don't think the team or Rodgers approach with the team is as fundementaly flawed as others.

poundhound · 29-11-2012 10:30AM

The 2 problems that need to be addressed in my opinion, is the lack of goal coversion and the overall team balance.

How many times have we played well and only drawn or lost? Its being gong on since the start of last season. We desperatley need more firepower and goals chipped in from other area's of the pitch. I was otimistic to hear of our interest in Walcott and possibly Huntelaar. This now seems far fetched with Rodgers already hinting at loan signings ala Darren Bent.

With Lucas's return imminent, expect Joe Allen to be pushed further forward alongside Gerrard. His brief has to be providing ammunition for the forward line.

Regarding the teams balance, there is none.
Playing left wingers at left back, left backs on the left wing, right backs at left back and central midfielders at right back?! WTF?!

Sappy404 · 29-11-2012 10:35AM

I can't remember the last time I was that frustrated after a match. An absolute howler playing Downing at full-back against Spurs at WHL, especially when we have a considerably more accomplished one available. And I don't know how Rodgers isn't getting more out of our midfield with the players he has.

That first half was embarrassing to watch. I know Rodgers was majorly let down by FSG in the summer and we simply don't have a full squad, but he's to blame for that result last night IMO. And what a massive three points to give away.

SlickRic · 29-11-2012 10:38AM

not fúcking good enough.

even if he is saddled with a couple of expensive donkeys, the way we set out in the first 20 minutes was not on.

these hard luck stories after almost every game are getting on my fúcking nerves too.

he needs to get the team to start winning.

simple.

Cartman78 · 29-11-2012 10:45AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Those would have been the expectations. If he was given another year everyone would have held to him a 'challenge for the top four through the season or walk when its over' standard. And rightly so.

So he was chopped, an inexperienced manager was brought in who would be delighted to have the job, wages were slashed and the noises from the top were changed to 'CL by 2016'.

A mere 12 months ago, the word from the top was '4th is the primary objective'. Ye can blame Kenny till the cows come home lads, but it is crystal clear that our standards and expectations have dropped significantly. Not an environment likely to breed success right now.

So, to confirm, because we won a competition that nobody cares about, got to the final of another marginally less insignificant competition and finished 8th in the League, we should have been expecting to finish 4th this year?

Agree that our standards & expectations have dropped - there's a myriad of factors driving this ie. not winning the League in over 20 years, a calamitous change of ownership which nearly brought the club into administration, a series of unfortunate/ill-conceived/sh1t transfer dealings etc etc.

Not happy or comfortable with the fact that finishing 4th in a League competition should be the main priority for Liverpool right now but times have changed and all the nostalgia in the world isn't change the situation.

Kenny is, and always will be, a club legend and the true fans recognise this regardless of their support for the new regime.

Backing B-Rod/Brendan/The Rodger doesn't make anyone a Kenny hater but if you strip away the nostalgia & sentimentality etc. you've got to surely acknowledge that Kenny's position became untenable after last season??

Jayob10 · 29-11-2012 10:49AM

Our problem is how naive we are when we don't have possession. Positionally very poor.

Seems like all tactical work is done with the ball, which is something to admire in some ways but the team (midfield particularly) looks all at sea when we are not in possession.

We are caught in 2 minds as to whether to hold our shape or else press, when a player breaks ranks to press you can see they are having to close alot of ground in order to do so and a noticeable gap is left.

We are in sync when we have possession, lots of movement off the ball, but when someone presses a team mate doesn't shift across to plug the gaps to make us compact.

We are in essence, going man for man when we don't have the ball which is dangerous when we seem to be losing alot of 50-50 battles.

We are seeing numerous occasions where teams break and quite easily its 5 v 5 (Johnson, Downing, Skrtel, Agger and Allen). This is a major problem and good sides will do damage.

On the flipside, quite recycling of possession sees us maintain bodies in dangerous areas of the field when we break. But the balance is all wrong, we still seem to be unwilling to commit bodies into the box.

Its an excellent tactical approach, but its high risk. And you need intelligent players to play it as it involves never playing in straight lines. For instance the players wide of the striker (Sterling and Suso/Enrique) need to use their intelligence and judgement in when they should tuck in an join the striker to ensure he is not isolated. A one dimensional player i.e Downing has the natural inclination to hog the touchline so his radar as to when to join the striker will never be there, hence he will never be a goal threat.

The key players in this system will be the ball winner in midfield who will successfully recycle possession and the attacking widemen, who know exactly when to break and when to join the striker. In fairness, Suarez probably is one of these widemen, an inside forward but for now we are having to use him as a central striker.

Gerrard seems a viable option for an inside left role, liberate him from any defensive duties (he seems to be making this decision himself, i.e half arsed tracking back) and let him operate higher up the field cutting in from the left.

Melion · 29-11-2012 10:58AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Those would have been the expectations. If he was given another year everyone would have held to him a 'challenge for the top four through the season or walk when its over' standard. And rightly so.

So he was chopped, an inexperienced manager was brought in who would be delighted to have the job, wages were slashed and the noises from the top were changed to 'CL by 2016'.

A mere 12 months ago, the word from the top was '4th is the primary objective'. Ye can blame Kenny till the cows come home lads, but it is crystal clear that our standards and expectations have dropped significantly. Not an environment likely to breed success right now.

So you, not being a hypocrite would have called for Kennys head if he had us in the same position as BR does right now? Im calling bollox on that im afraid.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Also, re Sterling: HE'S 17!!

Play the Assaidi bum instead of him, move Gerrard to the right sided slot, have Downing on the left more.

I don't care what you do, just stop playing a 17 year old kid week in, week out. He needs a break. People want to talk about short term thinking? Keep starting Sterling and his top flight career may be very short indeed.

Enough of the Assaidi bum bullshít. You are just coming across as a very sad, bitter, little man. Of course youd rather play our £20m England international left winger, its all about reputation for you afterall.

Wayne Rooney played 33 league games when he was 17/18, 34 the year after. How has his career turned out? Short and washed up?
Cesc Fabregas played 33 league games when he was 17/18, 35 the year after. How has his career turned out? Short and washed up?

You are talking absolute shít as per usual, its embarassing and tbh you are just pathetic nowadays.

K-9 · 29-11-2012 10:58AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Also, re Sterling: HE'S 17!!

Play the Assaidi bum instead of him, move Gerrard to the right sided slot, have Downing on the left more.

I don't care what you do, just stop playing a 17 year old kid week in, week out. He needs a break. People want to talk about short term thinking? Keep starting Sterling and his top flight career may be very short indeed.

I give up on the Kenny thing.

Agree on Sterling, we should have a player like Maxi there to help him out, give him his experience and know how, he isn't going to get that from Suarez, as good as he is. The squad lacks a Kuyt or Maxi, even Dempsey would have come in handy.

I don't know if Walcott is an option in that regard.

billybudd · 29-11-2012 11:03AM

Jayob10 wrote: »

Clarke isn't automatically a top manager IMO, by virtue of how West Brom are doing. Like Rodgers, lets judge him at the end of the season.

Alan Pardew and George Burley had their moments in the top 5 to remember. Whether he can sustain it, and repeat it in following seasons will determine whether he is a really good manager.

Your not a top class manager until you achieve something and win something, potential only lasts a fews a seasons and then it moves on...Owen Coyle.

Melion · 29-11-2012 11:03AM

And one more thing Lloyd. What would you, as the manager of LFC, do with Downing, Carroll, Henderson and Adam? Knowing that they were the main reason the last manager lost his job, would you keep them around and play them all the time just because they are a part of the squad? Ignoring the fact that they are an embarassment to the jersey and are being shown up by kids.

Melion · 29-11-2012 11:04AM

billybudd wrote: »

Your not a top class manager until you achieve something and win something, potential only lasts a fews a seasons and then it moves on...Owen Coyle.

And how long can you go without winning something before that "top class" tag is taken off you? 17 years without a trophy seems to be perfectly acceptable around here.

Milkers · 29-11-2012 11:06AM

I wouldn't agree with the ever-pessimistic LL and Mr Alan on the current state of affairs but I would agree that a Liverpool manager describing a loss to Spurs in the glowing terms he did after the match is a little unpalatable to me. To go on and describe Spurs as the template for us is even more galling. Spurs are a very nice team at present but ffs have we already abandoned wanting to win the league ever again? Or the CL? How can our ambitions have fallen so far so fast? (2005, 2007, 2009 are not that long ago).

On another note I must admit that I don't quite understand why posters ITT have been so gushing with their praise of Glen Johnson so far this season. He is obviously an exceptionally classy footballer but in my view has been under-performing if anything, often being caught out of position and generally too casual in his play on and off the ball.

billybudd · 29-11-2012 11:06AM

Morzadec wrote: »

Thought we deserved a point yesterday. Another frustrating game where as usual I feel we didn't get our just desserts.

Problems are as usual:

1. Poor individual error costing a goal - Reina should have done much better for the free-kick

2. Lack of a cutting edge up front. As has been said we are over-relying on Suarez. We are also over-relying on young Sterling who is only 17. Enrique has been good the last few matches but it speaks volumes when a left-back converted to left mid is one of our biggest attacking threats. We need at least one quality signing in the front 3. Hopefully that is Walcott and not Sturridge.

3. Poor refereeing decisions going against us. Don't want to sound like a whinger, but we have had horrific luck this year and I can fully understand Ridgers frustration - he must feel like there's a curse on the team. For those pointing at Rodgers points total, we should be 4 points better off if Enrique's goal against Swansea and Suarez's against Everton weren't wrongly ruled out. Yesterday, who knows, but it is a clear dive from Dempsey for the 2nd goal and while Gerrard's penalty appeal wasn't stonewall, it is usually given. Similar to the United game - we can't say what would have happened for sure, but in a close game like yesterday these 2 key decisions going against you is likely to cost you the result.

I really hope the panic stations don't kick in and we have patience and give Rodgers time. The man can't control these decisions that keep going against us. I'd be worried if we were having no possession, or playing badly, but the fact is we are dominating long spells of matches. We aren't excellent, but we aren't bad either. An effective finisher added to the front 3 could make us look a lot better and make us win a lot more games without really changing the overall performance of the team. The poor refereeing decisions can't last forever (I hope) and hopefully in January we address the attack issue. We need to get to January within 4 or 5 points of the top 4 contenders. I'm not going to rule us out yet for 4th (I know some might laugh at me for this) - we should really be up there with them at the moment. It's going to be really difficult now considering how far we are behind, but we have a nice little run coming up.

Like I said if we can get to January still somewhat in the mix then who knows what might happen. I don't think the team or Rodgers approach with the team is as fundementaly flawed as others.

Nah, was like us V Juventus in the CL before we came flying out and built up a 2 nill lead and then said that will do and closed up shop.

Was not really a case of us being better just spurs knowing they had the points.

Were a soft touch this season.

PRAF · 29-11-2012 11:15AM

As others have pointed out, the points total and league position are a little unfair right now. We've been on the end of a lot of questionable / entirely wrong decisions. While we have got a few decisions here and there, on balance, we have been extremely unlucky. We should've had at least 5 penalties this year and at least two winning goals which were incorrectly ruled out. Kenny had the same bad luck last year although hitting the woodwork was last years problem. We are cursed! For that reason along, I think we need to cut Rodgers some slack. With even normal luck, we'd be 4 points better off right now. With good luck, we'd be within touching distance of 4th.

Also, in other games, we just haven't converted our dominance of the game into more points. Wins turned into draws, draws into losses. This is partly due to individual mistakes (although we're seeing less and less of that now) but mostly due to poor finishing. Both, IMO, are the result of having a thin squad. We need more good players, more leaders, more finishers, more intelligent footballers, etc. This is a long term problem that cannot be solved in one or two transfer windows. The fact is we squandered tens of millions on the wrong players, even more tens of millions on ill-conceived stadium plans, more millions again paying off management teams no longer with us, etc. Now Rodgers is having to undue these catastrophic failiures on a shoestring budget.

Losing 2-1 to Spurs is no disgrace by any means. I think what is upsetting people most is the fact that it came after a 0-0 with Swansea which we also should have won.

Rodgers has made a few mistakes lately and he was badly outmanouevered in the transfer window. Lets hope he learns quickly. However, on balance, I'm still in the pro-Rodgers camp. Kenny has gone, Rafa has gone too. B1tching and moaning about it will achieve nothing I'm afraid.

PRAF · 29-11-2012 11:17AM

billybudd wrote: »

Was not really a case of us being better just spurs knowing they had the pointsQUOTE]

Then why did AVB come out and admit that they were extremely lucky to get the win, and that a draw would have been much the fairer result (aka they should have lost)?

PRAF · 29-11-2012 11:23AM

Milkers wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with the ever-pessimistic LL and Mr Alan on the current state of affairs but I would agree that a Liverpool manager describing a loss to Spurs in the glowing terms he did after the match is a little unpalatable to me. To go on and describe Spurs as the template for us is even more galling. Spurs are a very nice team at present but ffs have we already abandoned wanting to win the league ever again? Or the CL? How can our ambitions have fallen so far so fast? (2005, 2007, 2009 are not that long ago).

On another note I must admit that I don't quite understand why posters ITT have been so gushing with their praise of Glen Johnson so far this season. He is obviously an exceptionally classy footballer but in my view has been under-performing if anything, often being caught out of position and generally too casual in his play on and off the ball.

Perhaps he was a little over the top in his praise. However, what would you like him to do?

Option A - berate your players and give them the hairdryer treatment in public (aka the Phil Brown approach)

Option B - try the Kenny Dalglish passive aggressive approach, ignore the questions, take offensive that you've even been asked the question, etc.

Option C - the honest approach (aka the Roy Hodgson) and try to convince the fans that with the squad we've got, they were out of line even thinking we had a chance against Spurs in the first place

Managers need to believe, need to show faith in their team, and need to give hope to the fans. Ok that needs to be backed up by results. However, Rodger's press conferences are not the problem here.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 12/13

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