Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 12/13

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Lucas looked great in the 60 minutes or so he had for the under-21's. We already know he's a class act, so I wouldn't have too many worries about him not being the same player. I think the combination of him and Allen gives us two very solid options at the heart of the midfield. As for who makes up the point of the midfield 3, no one has nailed down that position, but out of everyone who has tried, Suso has been most impressive for me.

First choice midfield

--- Lucas - Allen

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Suso

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Back-up midfield

--- Sahin - Henderson ---
--- Shelvey/Gerrard ---

Under no circumstances should Gerrard be allowed to play in deep-lying role that Lucas and Allen occupy. We all know he doesn't have the legs, but more importantly his stray passes leave us wide open to counter attack. If we're in a jam, I don't have a problem with him playing in the AM role, it's just not ideal.

My worry is that something happens to/with Lucas when he comes back. We all, or most of us anyway, have huge expectations about how things will go once he returns and whilst he most likely will come back strong there is always that sense of creeping dread that he will get another injury or not be quite the same player.

We have seen exactly what happens without him in the centre, and the idea of us getting a hattrick of Lucas injuries is something that, in my eyes anyway, should see us trying to strengthen our midfield with at least one more player who could play alongside Lucas and Allen in a midfield three, but that could also do the Lucas role to a high level should Lucas be out. That would also allow Allen to stay in his best role and not see us having to use him as a lesser version of Lucas again.

I think Gerrard is the elephant in the room right now with regards to our midfield as he is struggling to fit into the way the team is trying to play and the team simply cannot try to build around Gerrard because he is not capable of doing what he used to do and nobody should be dumping that kind of expectation upon him either.

For as long as Rodgers plays Gerrard in the centre, especially in one of the deeper slots, then our midfield will be disjointed more often than it is fluid, and it will be a very soft miudfield for other teams to come up against. But for as long as the team is wallowing in midtable it will be very difficult for Rodgers to drop Gerrard from the team (assuming he does not try to play him in the final third instead of as a CM) as there would be a backlash from the supporters if the results did not pick up sharpish.

i didn't think that goal was offside yesterday and clearly chicos foot is playing him on there

Nuri Sahin wrote: »

Formations aren't concrete in football. Rodgers likes his set 433 formation, but in defence that breaks down into a 4231, 4321, 451 or even a 3 or 5 man defence, it really depends on a lot of variables. Allen and Nuri/Suso would be interchanging a fair bit for me during any given game. One goes forward, one sits. Simple as that. Allen showed he was capable of playing more as attacking midfielder if needed for GB during the Olympics.

What am I missing with That's the best basketball betting? Only just noticed that now. Is it a bit off on purpose?

The issue isnt Gerrard. Gerrard needs to be closer to Suarez but he cant afford to be because of Joe Allen. Im sorry to probably upset people some more but Joe Allen isnt 'able' for that role. He is easily out muscled up against an offence that has higher tempo.

Thats not to say i think he is useless. I think the better option with this set of players in a fully fit squad is to put Lucas where Allen is and move both Allen and Gerrard 10 yards more advanced in a 4141 type formation where Gerrard and Allen take passes off Lucas.

In any case, Gerrard needs to be closer to Suarez. Thats the reason as to why we seem so limp in attack and nobody gets into the box from central midfield, its basically that Gerrard isnt up there to do it and thats a formation/thin squad issue.

Another option here is, that if Brendan wants to continue with Gerrard there he needs to play Shelvey where Gerrard should ideally be. When we dont do this, or have a midfield player pressing on from the centre, it results in Suarez coming too deep.

Nuri Sahin wrote: »

Gerrard on the other hand has gotten a free pass from far too many. Some might say he has earned that right, I call BS on that. If we want to progress this season, obvious striker in January issue aside, Gerrard needs to play upfront and in Suarez current form, that RW is his only option.

I see from the official website that Gerrard is in the running to make the World XI for 2012 :eek::eek:

Some players seem to be able to just dine out on their past form. Stevie hasn't looked consistently world class since his days playing just behind Torres.

Lets move him into that AM or Wide Forward role once Lucas is back. That'll work to his strengths and it will also allow us to rest Sterling a bit more.

daithijjj wrote: »

The issue isnt Gerrard. Gerrard needs to be closer to Suarez but he cant afford to be because of Joe Allen. Im sorry to probably upset people some more but Joe Allen isnt 'able' for that role. He is easily out muscled up against an offence that has higher tempo.

Thats not to say i think he is useless. I think the better option with this set of players in a fully fit squad is to put Lucas where Allen is and move both Allen and Gerrard 10 yards more advanced in a 4141 type formation where Gerrard and Allen take passes off Lucas.

In any case, Gerrard needs to be closer to Suarez. Thats the reason as to why we seem so limp in attack and nobody gets into the box from central midfield, its basically that Gerrard isnt up there to do it and thats a formation/thin squad issue.

Another option here is, that if Brendan wants to continue with Gerrard there he needs to play Shelvey where Gerrard should ideally be. When we dont do this, or have a midfield player pressing on from the centre, it results in Suarez coming too deep.

It is very obvious that Allen can be outmuscled in midfield, but part of the problem is that we have no bite whatsoever in the centre right now, and Allen seems to be the only one trying to do the physical stuff desopite his very obvious limitions on that front.

Gerrard offers no physical presence in the centre and certainly is no ball winner nowadays, at least not on a regular basis.

Now Gerrard is better than some of our other options right now, which in my opinion is more damning on those younger players than it is on a Gerrard who is long past his best, but being better than players who are not really good enough yet/ever is not really the right reason to play Gerrard in a position that he is not great in, especially a Gerrard that does not have the engine he used to have.


Gerrard and Sahin should have swapped roles this season. Have said this a number of times and the more I see Gerrard in the deeper CM role that Sahin used to thrive in at Dortmund, the more it puzzles me.

If we are playing three in the centre then Gerrard needs to be the most advanced player more often than not, and only dropping back when Sahin advances. Sahin can then work with Allen (whilst Allen is in the Lucas role) the same way he used to work off of Bender. Sahin has the ability to act as the foil for the DM of the team, and he is very very good in that role, butwe have rarely put him in that role and two of the rare games in which he took up that role was the Norwich game and the West Brom cup game.

As for dropping Gerrard, well I would not be for doing that right now, but once Lucas is back and fully fit then I would be for Gerrard being moved away from a CM role and used in a more attacking role.


Gerrard has a good eye for goal. Gerrard is pretty good in terms of positioning in the final third. Gerrard is good a whipping balls in when in a wide position in the final third, in fact I would say that he is far better at fast twenty five yard diagonol balls than anyone else in the squad right now. So it seems stupid to me to have him in the deeper CM role where all those qualities go to waste because he does not have the physical qualities anymore to come bursting from deep to get to where he can be a threat. The obvious answer is to start him in a position from which he can be a threat to the other team, where his declining physical qualities will not work against him nor the team as much, and where he can end his career on a high. Now short term (as in until Lucas is up to speed) that position may be in the CAM slot, and medium term (Lucas fully fit) it could be in a wider slot in a 4-3-3 or the central AM slot in a 4-2-3-1 or 3-5-2.


But for as long as Gerrard is being used in a deep CM position, then he is as much of a problem, possibly more due to his declining physical qualities, as Allen

If Lucas gets back to form and fitness I think he should probably be given the captaincy next year or the year after at the very latest.

Would love to see an Italian club come in for Gerrard to give him a swansong. The slower pace of the game over there would see him continue dictate the play and dominate the midfield and could even extend his club career by a couple of years. I think the pace of the Premier League is too much for him now.

super_furry wrote: »

Would love to see an Italian club come in for Gerrard to give him a swansong. The slower pace of the game over there would see him continue dictate the play and dominate the midfield and could even extend his club career by a couple of years. I think the pace of the Premier League is too much for him now.

Hell see out his career here id imagine, he really has to be phased out next season though.


He hasto be rested wednesday really, hes playing himself into injury.mwould go with allen heno and sahin wednesday

super_furry wrote: »

Would love to see an Italian club come in for Gerrard to give him a swansong. The slower pace of the game over there would see him continue dictate the play and dominate the midfield and could even extend his club career by a couple of years. I think the pace of the Premier League is too much for him now.

I'm not the man's biggest fan, but I would now hate to see him finish his career anywhere else.

ricero wrote: »

what is it with our fans on this forum completely ripping into club legends like Carragher and Gerrard lately. fair enough Carraghers finished at the top level and Stevie has not been great this year, but some of the criticism and harsh words being branded to them on this thread is simply ridiculous and disrespectful after all they have done for this club

Agreed.

Gerrad is not at his best this season and considering his age he could be much more effective in different position.

After Saurez and Johnson Gerrard is still one of our best players.

daithijjj wrote: »

We arent really going to agree on Gerrard, we have been over this before

But i dont think theres much point talking about Sahin in such a way when the manager himself doesnt seem to fancy him in the team at the moment. He isnt even our player so any debate really has to account for him signing on for a period of years. If Sahin becomes our player after the 6-7 months he has left then maybe we can talk about playing Gerrard less.

Whatever about Gerrard losing his swashbuckler style (was always going to happen) we do need a few experienced heads on the pitch with all the young players we have now. For all we know Gerrard can play a massive role in giving those young players confidence and help bring them on.

Well on Sahin I have said on here in the past few weeks that either the manager plays him in his best position or looks to bring in a midfielder full time that he actually wants.

It is pointless having a player of Sahin's potenial in the squad if you are not going to play him in his best position. Pointless for Sahin, and more importantly pointless for the team.


I cannot argue against your point about the need for experienced heads, but experienced heads are only of any use when they actually show an influence on the pitch when we need it and last week against Young Boys was an example of having experienced heads on the pitch heading into the final ten minutes and the team still going guing ho and being like headless chickens in the centre.


You say that for all we know Gerrard might be having a massive influence on the younger players in terms of helping them along and what not, well that is nothing more than conjecture and the exact opposite could be argued and would be just as valid given that it would be nothing more than conjecture as well. As it happens I tend to agree with your take on him being good for the confidence of young players, and I think in training he could be a massive influence as a kind word from a player, who has won what he has, has to make a young player feel ten foot tall. But I think on the pitch he does not offer much leadership , and does not seem to have the ability to calm his team down when it needs it or speed them up when needed. Once upon a time he could influence the team through actions and his physicality allowed him to pull off many great escapes, but with that physicality fading it looks like he does not have the ability to influence the team in a positive manner using his mouth/brain.

It is not even a dig at the player because time catches up with every player at some point, but it gets the players who were heavily reliant on their physical gifts first and I think that Gerrard is a prime example of a player whose physical gifts in his prime put him above the majority of other players in terms of what he could do.


Once upon a time he always had that bit more strength, that little bit more pace, that bit of extra flexibility, that extra ounce of power that let him win a ball, let him outpace a marker, let him unleash a 20 yard rasper, let him turn quicker to make a pass and what not. Now without those physical abilities being what they were, he does not appear to have the ability to change his game in the manner that Giggs did and at Gerrard's age I don't think it would be fair to expect him to.

For me he gets a pass at times due to past achievements, and whilst that is totally understandable from supporters, it is something that a strong manager cannot buy into.

I'm not calling for Gerrard's head, but I am saying that I think he has not been played in the right position. imho of course, by the manager this season, and by right position I mean the one that is best for the team.

rarnes1 wrote: »

I'm sure he has told Gerrard where his future lies in the team.

Melion alluded to it earlier.

..and that is?