Garda now admit state has lost war on drugs

MagicSean · 19-11-2012 09:26PM

nm wrote: »

Gangland murders are a result of putting the drugs trade into the hands of gangsters.. I..

ah **** it, not gonna bother

If drugs were once legal and then made illegal you might have a point. But they have been illegal for many decades. It stands to reason that the vast majority of people using them started while they were already illegal. So theres really no excuse for putting all the blame on prohibition. The people who buy them share equal responsibility as the people who banned them in giving power to the dealers.

kowloon · 19-11-2012 09:33PM

kupus wrote: »

Weed is not addictive...the person smoking it is....which is why I would like to see a drug rehab place beside every drug shop if it ever came to pass.

This is not such a great idea, for the same reason AA meetings aren't held in the pub.

Chuck Stone · 19-11-2012 10:07PM

The 'think of psychosis' argument is not any reason to continue the prohibition farce.

How does prohibition prevent it? If people want weed they're going to grow/get it anyway.

Better to educate people on the risks of taking substances and assist them with addiction services.

Odysseus · 19-11-2012 10:14PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The 'think of psychosis' argument is not any reason to continue the prohibition farce.

How does prohibition prevent it? If people want weed they're going to grow/get it anyway.

Better to educate people on the risks of taking substances and assist them with addiction services.

I would fully agree with that, it is the denial of such links and of any negative effects that I can't agree with.

Haelium · 19-11-2012 10:23PM

MagicSean wrote: »

If drugs were once legal and then made illegal you might have a point. But they have been illegal for many decades. It stands to reason that the vast majority of people using them started while they were already illegal. So theres really no excuse for putting all the blame on prohibition. The people who buy them share equal responsibility as the people who banned them in giving power to the dealers.

So if I buy clothes am I responsible for the existence of sweatshops in Asia?

RustyNut · 19-11-2012 10:53PM

MagicSean wrote: »

If drugs were once legal and then made illegal you might have a point. But they have been illegal for many decades. It stands to reason that the vast majority of people using them started while they were already illegal. So theres really no excuse for putting all the blame on prohibition. The people who buy them share equal responsibility as the people who banned them in giving power to the dealers.

The reality that there is a demand for drugs that will be filled. I can't find an estimate on how much the Irish recreational drugs market is worth but tens of millions would be my guess.

We as a society have the power to take that money away from the criminals by legalising and regulating the sale and possession of them.

How much profit must there be if it is worth while for Chinese gangs to set up grow houses here or other crims to smuggle coke from south America, smack from Asia etc. This money would be better going into state coffers than supporting the lifestyles of crime lords.

The problems surrounding drugs will still be there, mental health issues, addiction etc which only affect a tiny minority of users but it might be easier to deal with the chronic addicts if it was treated as a public health issue rather than a criminal issue.

At the end of the day stoners gonna stone weather we like it or not.

Just say no kids doesn't work nor does prohibition so I think it's time for a new approach.

bedrock#1 · 19-11-2012 10:56PM

charlemont wrote: »

What your saying is true, But its not a fair system of justice, Compare it to me getting caught with the makings of a few joints when I was 18 and getting a conviction for it, My 1st offence too. This guy gets caught with heaps of drugs and gets no conviction..He must have sang like a canary...

You'd never get a conviction for that. I was caught with a few pills, went to court, struck out, no conviction, no record.

bedrock#1 · 19-11-2012 11:14PM

On the cannabis - psychosis debate have a look at this lecture delivered by Prof. David Nutt one of the worlds leading psycho-pharmacologists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=207J8qMyuOc

View from 23.30 onwards.

Basically he argues that if the rate of schizophrenia and cannabis use are related, then when controlling for all other causes we should see the rate of schizophrenia increase as cannabis use increases. In fact cannabis use has increased by 20x in the last 40 years whereas instances of schizophrenia are declining.

bedrock#1 · 19-11-2012 11:14PM

Haelium wrote: »

So if I buy clothes am I responsible for the existence of sweatshops in Asia?

Yes

RustyNut · 19-11-2012 11:16PM

bedrock#1 wrote: »

You'd never get a conviction for that. I was caught with a few pills, went to court, struck out, no conviction, no record.

You were lucky, there are other people who were caught in similar circumstance and do have a drugs conviction which will have consiquences for them in relation to their career,where they can travel to etc for the rest of their lives.

This is the biggest risk to the vast majority of drug users and could be removed with the stroke of a ministers pen.

bedrock#1 · 19-11-2012 11:25PM

RustyNut wrote: »

You were lucky, there are other people who were caught in similar circumstance and do have a drugs conviction which will have consiquences for them in relation to their career,where they can travel to etc for the rest of their lives.

This is the biggest risk to the vast majority of drug users and could be removed with the stroke of a ministers pen.

Sure I know, it's a joke, I was quite lucky the Garda didn't turn up. I reckon he was trying to put the sh1ts up me. Judge was none too pleased when he didn't show!

It'll be interesting to see how Ming gets on in April with his private members bill. But it would seem that the dominoes are beginning to fall in relation to weed at least.

Piliger · 19-11-2012 11:32PM

MagicSean wrote: »

If drugs were once legal and then made illegal you might have a point. But they have been illegal for many decades. It stands to reason that the vast majority of people using them started while they were already illegal. So theres really no excuse for putting all the blame on prohibition. The people who buy them share equal responsibility as the people who banned them in giving power to the dealers.

You seem without imagination. Repeating the same point about the woes of the present situation is meaningless. The worthwhile and valuable question people are most interested is the future, not the past and the present.

There will always be people who want to take drugs. This is part of human nature and of what it means to be free and to live in a free society. Society should not be trying to somehow 'stamp' it all out. It needs to accept that as a free society, it is people's choice.

Clearly Ireland cannot move alone in this anyway. It is simply not feasible. But we can have a voice in the growing European and global discussion.

Someone talks about Portugal. The problem is that they went only part of the way and therefore didn't reap the benefits of legalisation. If Europe moved to legalisation, there would be an enormous financial from savings on security, policing, prisons. A huge dividend to spend on a massive education program at school level and on health treatment for addicts.

This would ensure that young people know what using drugs mean and what happens to them if they chose that path. It will also mean good treatment to help addicts.

The end goal, as I say, is not to reduce drug taking to zero. That is silly and pointless to imagine. People will ALWAYS smoke, people will ALWAYS take drugs. The end goal should be to keep it as low as possible within a free society and to ensure that it does not damage the rest of society - which it is doing now.

Kidchameleon · 20-11-2012 12:10AM

kupus wrote: »

Religious don't want it as there's no mention of JC ever getting stoned in the bible (afaik)

Did he not get stoned at the cross?:D

charlemont · 20-11-2012 12:25AM

bedrock#1 wrote: »

You'd never get a conviction for that. I was caught with a few pills, went to court, struck out, no conviction, no record.

Oh Yes I did I wouldn't post it if it was a lie but even in the last few years I'v been to court for an actual makings. The Garda even said it was worth €5.

Maybe you live in Dublin in which the cops aren't as assed about personal possession but here in Munster its their bread and butter..Or else you named names !! I'v seen blokes get a month for as little as 3/4 yolk's.

bedrock#1 · 20-11-2012 01:57AM

charlemont wrote: »

Oh Yes I did I wouldn't post it if it was a lie but even in the last few years I'v been to court for an actual makings. The Garda even said it was worth €5.

Maybe you live in Dublin in which the cops aren't as assed about personal possession but here in Munster its their bread and butter..Or else you named names !! I'v seen blokes get a month for as little as 3/4 yolk's.

I do live in Dublin. Way more heroin addicts to worry about for the fuzz here. A month for 3/4 pills you say? Wonder how the feckers sleep at night knowing they have ruined someones life.....

Sunnyisland · 20-11-2012 09:44AM

A step forward ? It will be interesting to see who votes one way or another and what are there reasons ?

A bill aimed at legalising cannabis is being brought before the Dáil in April next year by an Independent TD.
Roscommon TD Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan is to bring a Private Members’ Bill before the Oireachtas to fully legalise the drug for purchase. "I have been campaigning for years for the legalisation of cannabis and I am preparing a Private Members’ Bill that I will be putting before the Dáil in April of next year," he said.

Mr Flanagan has been a long-time supporter of the full decriminalisation of cannabis, though he no longer smokes the drug.

"I wouldn't be naive in thinking I will get a lot of support in the Dáil but it would certainly show some of them up for the hypocrites they are. I’m a legislator and I have a mandate.

"There is this preconception that it is bad for you but the fact is, people are smoking it and the Government is losing a massive amount of money by not regulating it and taxing it. I’m launching this campaign and I aim for it to be successful," he said.

The Department of Health has said it hopes to bring forward legislative proposals by early 2013, enabling cannabis-based medicines to be prescribed in Ireland. The legislation would allow the prescription of Sativex, a drug containing cannabis extract, for the treatment of multiple sclerosis. Sativex is already available in the North.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&q=http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/flanagan-to-bring-bill-to-dail-on-legalising-cannabis-214361.html&ct=ga&cad=CAcQAhgBIAAoATAAOABAn8mrhQVIAVAAWABiBWVuLUlF&cd=uikgLdNzHyU&usg=AFQjCNHc8ZgKuDw1ZANZ9Ei7sv1BbbwXrg

charlemont · 20-11-2012 10:56AM

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1120/breaking9.html

Another large haul, Rathcormac ? I wouldn't even carry a packet of skins on me up around there, That's how hot that area is.

tayto lover · 20-11-2012 11:45AM

I don't smoke at all so it doesn't effect me either way if it's de-criminalised or not but I would like to hear how we could afford the extra Re-Hab, medical expenses, treatment facilities etc that we would need if it happens. Especially if the links to psychosis are real.
People say we should legalise and tax it but if people still continue to sell without the tax then people will buy from them. Not everyone will grow their own.
The debate has a long way to go yet.

20-11-2012 11:50AM

What links to psychosis would they be, then? "i'm not for or against but i have a real strong opinion based on bull****"

Give us break and keep your misiformation to yourself.

TPD · 20-11-2012 11:53AM

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't smoke at all so it doesn't effect me either way if it's de-criminalised or not but I would like to hear how we could afford the extra Re-Hab, medical expenses, treatment facilities etc that we would need if it happens. Especially if the links to psychosis are real.
People say we should legalise and tax it but if people still continue to sell without the tax then people will buy from them. Not everyone will grow their own.
The debate has a long way to go yet.

You say we'd need extra facilities as if consumption would increase with legalisation, which has been shown not to happen in the Netherlands and Portugal if I'm not mistaken.

Anyway, the price is only so high to buy it illegally because of all the danger involved in producing, shipping and selling it. A legal crop would cost a pittance - I'd say the government could tax at a few hundred percent and still be cheaper than current illegal prices. The tax then going to pay for drugs education and rehab centres etc.

Chuck Stone · 20-11-2012 11:54AM

tayto lover wrote: »

I would like to hear how we could afford the extra Re-Hab, medical expenses, treatment facilities etc that we would need if it happens.

I would like to know why you think there will be a massive surge in weed smoking? Where is your evidence for this view?

Remember too that if weed is legalised there'd be a lot less cost incurred to the tax-payer in prosecuting people, locking them up, putting them on probation, police work etc.

tayto lover · 20-11-2012 12:01PM

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

What links to psychosis would they be, then? "i'm not for or against but i have a real strong opinion based on bull****"

Give us break and keep your misiformation to yourself.

Did you not see the word "if" ?
Maybe they are bull**** but the arguments are there to be shot down at least and i'm sure the argument will form part of the basis for legalisation or not. Only a fool would think otherwise and that's why I mentioned it.
These are only samples from a quick google - I didn't even bother to read them yet but they are there and that why it has to be faced up to.

http://psychcentral.com/news/2012/07/25/first-marijuana-use-linked-to-psychosis-in-vulnerable-people/42256.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/02/us-psychosis-cannabis-idUSTRE72102F20110302

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2005559,00.html

bedrock#1 · 20-11-2012 12:06PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Did you not see the word "if" ?
Maybe they are bull**** but the arguments are there to be shot down at least and i'm sure the argument will form part of the basis for legalisation or not. Only a fool would think otherwise and that's why I mentioned it.
These are only samples from a quick google - I didn't even bother to read them yet but they are there and that why it has to be faced up to.

http://psychcentral.com/news/2012/07/25/first-marijuana-use-linked-to-psychosis-in-vulnerable-people/42256.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/02/us-psychosis-cannabis-idUSTRE72102F20110302

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2005559,00.html

On the previous page i posted a link to a lecture given by David Nutt leading psych-pharmacologist. Look at it from 23:30 onwards.

tayto lover · 20-11-2012 12:07PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I would like to know why you think there will be a massive surge in weed smoking? Where is your evidence for this view?

Remember too that if weed is legalised there'd be a lot less cost incurred to the tax-payer in prosecuting people, locking them up, putting them on probation, police work etc.

I read somewhere years ago that there was a big increase in tourist drug use in Amsterdam in the early years of the tea shops. I also read posts on Boards talking about the money we would make from visitors coming here to smoke legally. It is just a view and could be wrong.

Your points regarding prosecution are probably right but there could still be a criminality involved in selling stronger and cheaper stuff to underage people without the taxes etc.
I am just throwing out things that might arise in time really.

Piliger · 20-11-2012 12:07PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't smoke at all so it doesn't effect me either way if it's de-criminalised or not

Are you serious ? You are paying more taxes to pay for the huge police and law enforcement efforts to stop drugs coming into the country and to prosecute ordinary drug users and almost a 100k a year to keep them in prison. Money that could be used for education and health services. You are also living with daily crime that is mostly made up of drug related crime, whether it be dealers or ordinary users who steal and assault and burglarise to get the money to buy their drugs.

Imagine if drug users didn't have to commit crime to get that money ? If the crime gangs in Dublin lost all of their income over night ? You don't think life would be a lot better ?

but I would like to hear how we could afford the extra Re-Hab, medical expenses, treatment facilities etc that we would need if it happens.

What evidence or logic do you use to suggest that there will be a sudden increase in drug use ? Anyone can buy drugs today, easily. Why would there be a sudden increase in use just because they are legalised ?

Especially if the links to psychosis are real.

Aren't you aware of the enormous problems caused by alcohol ?

People say we should legalise and tax it but if people still continue to sell without the tax then people will buy from them. Not everyone will grow their own.

Why could they not be bought in Chemists ? in Head shops ?

The debate has a long way to go yet.

I agree. But we need to start somewhere with a real debate that doesn't focus solely on people worst irrational fears.

tayto lover · 20-11-2012 12:10PM

bedrock#1 wrote: »

On the previous page i posted a link to a lecture given by David Nutt leading psych-pharmacologist. Look at it from 23:30 onwards.

Yes I will read that, thanks.
You will probably get plenty of contradictory stuff too.

Odysseus · 20-11-2012 12:15PM

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

What links to psychosis would they be, then? "i'm not for or against but i have a real strong opinion based on bull****"

Give us break and keep your misiformation to yourself.

There are plenty of links to its effects on mental health, now I teach on a few addiction studies courses, work with people who experience negative effect of cannabis use.

If you have the ultimate paper that once and for all shows that cannabis has no effects on mental health, I will glady pass it on to every other professional I work with.

The question of drug induced disorders and what role cannabis may play in their development it too big a question to ignore. The same with trying to deny that some people develop an addiction to it.

These are very important facts and if we are ever going to see this country take a rational position in relation to drug use we need to acknowledge them.

Saying the don't exist won't help, as a clinician I see the damage that cannabis can cause in a persons life. However, that doesn't mean that a significant amount of people can use this drug without any major ill effects.

Some of these question are very difficult to answer, but if we don't acknowledge them and look for the answers, we are doing no body any favours.

However, with saying all that I have about 25 years left in this game, but I don't see it being legal before I retire sadly.

tayto lover · 20-11-2012 12:16PM

Piliger wrote: »

Are you serious ? You are paying more taxes to pay for the huge police and law enforcement efforts to stop drugs coming into the country and to prosecute ordinary drug users and almost a 100k a year to keep them in prison. Money that could be used for education and health services. You are also living with daily crime that is mostly made up of drug related crime, whether it be dealers or ordinary users who steal and assault and burglarise to get the money to buy their drugs.

Imagine if drug users didn't have to commit crime to get that money ? If the crime gangs in Dublin lost all of their income over night ? You don't think life would be a lot better ?

What evidence or logic do you use to suggest that there will be a sudden increase in drug use ? Anyone can buy drugs today, easily. Why would there be a sudden increase in use just because they are legalised ?

Aren't you aware of the enormous problems caused by alcohol ?
Why could they not be bought in Chemists ? in Head shops ?
I agree. But we need to start somewhere with a real debate that doesn't focus solely on people worst irrational fears.

Are you serious? The crime gangs will just disappear like that ??
Criminals will just introduce something else with a better buzz and market it well.
I am well aware of the problems caused by alcohol. I meet them in the Soup Kitchen i work in 2 nights a week but that is a separate argument.

My point was that someone will under-cut the Chemists i.e. sell at reduced price to underage persons.

Chuck Stone · 20-11-2012 12:22PM

Can people stop banging on about psychosis as if it's a good reason to continue the prohibition farce please?

If anything the risks posed to health from substances provide reasons to legalise it and treat it as a medical issue rather than heaping further misery on people and their families by making criminals out of them.

tayto lover wrote: »

My point was that someone will under-cut the Chemists i.e. sell at reduced price to underage persons.

There are no people out on the streets trying to sell home-brew and nobody would want it anyway because they probably wouldn't trust the maker. Try to apply some logic to your thoughts instead of peering into your crystal ball of doom and making flimsy excuses for a morally bankrupt system that harms people.

TheDoc · 20-11-2012 12:23PM

slavetothegrind wrote: »

it's true realies, it was me!

i didn't even get the oppertunity to speak!

judge addressed the garda who told him all was in order i just hadn't got an insurance disk in the window as i hadn't got it yet
then in a millisecond gavel strikes wood and i'm 300 euro poorer
didn't even look at me
im not small and was one of the few in a suit in the courtroom, the only one standing up!

i'm a tad bitter, reckon i should have gone in a tracksuit and said i was off me biccie at the time.....

i didn't appeal because i was guilty of non display, even though insured, and i really believe it wopuld have gone against me as there seems to be an attitude of "you know better" for ordinary decent people, and "what would you expect" for scum.

I got pulled in while back at a checkpoint and had no disk on display. I had a letter from the insurance company in my glovebox, which stated my start and endterm of insurance and that my package including my disc would arrive in the coming days.

Guard read it, took my details and told me to pop down to the station when I received it, did and that was the end of it.

That sounds overly harsh, and I've never heard of that EVER happening before, if the driver had an active policy.

Garda now admit state has lost war on drugs

Comments