The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

Masteroid wrote: »

My understanding is that judgement day is when we find out if we go to heaven or hell, that when we die, we are in a deep sleep and no matter how long you've been dead, it is as if only one night has passed when we are awakened to be judged.

If judgement day is yet to happen, how can Moses, Abraham, Mary, the thief who died on a cross next to Jesus, etc be in heaven?

Similarly, how can there be anyone in hell if they have yet to be judged?

The Great Judgement is the formal sentencing/rewarding of Mankind after Armageddon ... the actual 'conviction' occurs at the moment of death ... with the Saved going to Heaven and those who refuse Salvation going the other way.
... and that's why Moses, Abraham, Mary, the thief who died on a cross next to Jesus, etc are in heaven.

The account of the Rich Man and Lazarus (and modern NDEs) indicate that people do not 'sleep' when they die ... they go to semi-instant judgement of where their eternal destiny is to be spent.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Masteroid wrote: »

The irony of verse 31 in the above quote is too much to let pass without comment. If Jesus had read this book the He could have saved Himself a whole heap of trouble.

'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'

'Now off you go Judas, I have a resurrection to prepare for.'

Judas went off to prepare for the death of Jesus ... and not His Resurrection.

The Saved believe through faith on Jesus Christ's atoning death to forgive their sins ... they believe in His Resurrection because it is a historically verified fact ... witnessed by over 500 people.
... and the people who don't believe His Word or in His atoning death ... also don't believe that He rose from the dead ... just like He said they would.

Masteroid wrote: »

But uncorroborated evidence from a corrupt and essentially evil human-being has to be taken with a pinch of salt, doesn't it?

The evidence of any one individual should be taken 'with a pinch of salt' ... but when the evidence is corroborated by millions of people, as is the case with NDEs then it has excellent credibility.:)

Quote:
"A Gallup Poll in 1992 led to an estimate that 13 million Americans had experienced an NDE. The population of the United States in 1992 was approximately 260 million, leading to an estimate of NDE prevalence of 13 million/260 million, or 5%. A survey in Germany (Knoblauch H., Schmied, I. (2001). Different Kinds of Near-Death Experience: A Report on a Survey of Near-Death Experiences in Germany. Journal of Near-Death Studies, 20(1), 15-29.) found 4% of over 2000 people surveyed reported having experienced a NDE."
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Research/number_nde_usa.htm

Masteroid wrote: »

You'll like this from Revelation then:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-31051c"]c[/URL and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-31053d"]d[/URL 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

It would appear from this that the good and evil dwell together until Judgement Day, or the second death.

The Great White Throne Judgement is the judgement of the damned after the millenial reign of Jesus ... and that is why there is no mention of Heaven as the location from whence they are taken to this Judgement.

Masteroid wrote: »

And you didn't answer my question about Abel. Why isn't he acknowledged as being either the first human to enter the kingdom of God or the first victim, and therefore longest suffering occupant, of the fiery lake?

It looks like Abel is Saved ... Gen 4:4 says that the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering ... and indeed that was why Cain murdered him in a jealous rage.

Masteroid wrote: »

A Gallup Poll in 1992 led to an estimate that 13 million corrupt and essentially evil human-beings had experienced an NDE.

I guess UFO's are a fact too on that basis then.

The Gallup poll is an estimate of the total number of NDEs. The individual testimonies of people who have had an NDE is eyewitness evidence.

... and I know that UFOs exist ... as I am an eyewitness to this fact.

Masteroid wrote: »

And what about all the people that claim that God told them to do it, do they not corroborate each other?

And ghosts... mystical auras... tarot readers...

And way to interpret data again, J C, an estimate of 13 million is not the same as eyewitness accounts of 13 million.

I agree ... and I have made this differentiation above.

doctoremma wrote: »

Why am I not surprised? If you were any more wide-eyed, you'd be a bush baby.

Or Mila Kunis.

When you see a UFO close up ... and spiritually challenge it's occupants ... and they have to go back (instantly) to from whence they came ... when commanded in the name of Jesus Christ ... that is a cold direct eyewitness account ... that would be accepted in any court of law.

... and it isn't any 'wide-eyed' hearsay!!!

doctoremma wrote: »

Are you broken? Have you got a head injury?

Not broken ... no head injury ... just a Christian ... with full power to challenge and rebuke the demonic host in the name of Jesus Christ.

The UFO was so close to me that I could almost reach out and touch it ... and I've met the beings themselves ... close up and personal.

Do you not know that UFOs exist ... and have been witnessed by millions of people ... and thousands of people of the highest repute?

These things can move at a crawl ... and can hover and land on the ground ... and they can accelerate from a hovering position to literally thousands of KPH instantly ... and no conventional aircraft is physically capable of this.
The UFOs are silent ... except for a very low-level bearly audible 'hum' like a large high-tension electrical transformer.

... and these things are taken deadly seriously by the governments of the world ... and they are not 'broken or with a head injury'!!!
... they also kill large animals ... and I have personally seen the results of their 'handiwork'.
... there are no engines or obvious external means of propulsion on the craft ... and they radiate light in the red end of the spectrum ... but they aren't hot.

Animals are totally scared of them ... and react agressively to them.
The light energy is so strong that the craft is brighter than the sun on a sunny day ... but it doesn't blind you or have any adverse effect on your eyes.

The beings are scared of Christians ... and the mention of the name of Jesus ... and they radiate a white light from a translucent body that is about the size and shape of a 10 year old Human child - at least the ones I met ... they don't talk ... yet they appear to understand what we say.
I found that the craft and the beings can remotely interfere with the lights of vehicles ... but not with the radio or other electrics.
... they are attracted to high voltage electric lines ... but no flash occured when they hovered near them ... even though they seem to have been able to take elecrticity from the lines.

At night UFOs have an extremely bright white light similar to a very large flood light, that they can direct onto the ground ... and the beings can physically materialise and dematerialise.

Masteroid wrote: »

Read it again, it says nothing of the sort. A plain reading of what is written confirms my position.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them.

Your position is not supported by the bible at all. Are you trying to start a new religion or something, by bending meanings of words to suit your agenda?

The hypocrisy you exhibit when you re-write bibical facts is mind-boggling.

... here is the full biblical quote in context ... with my comments in red:-
Rev 20:7-15
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
This is the millenial reign of Jesus following Armageddon

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
The 'dead' referred to here are the dead in spirit ... and not the saved ... who are in Heaven from the moment of death ... and who have formally received their Heavenly reward at the Great Judgement immediately after Armageddon, when Jesus Christ returns, for the second time, in Glory
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
... again these are the bodies and spirits of the damned who lived in the millenium
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
... further confirmation that all these are people not found in the book of life i.e. the unSaved.

Masteroid wrote: »

Well, you're not often right J C, but this time you are wrong.

It was because God did not respect Cain and his offering that Cain was jealous.

All God had to do was treat the two boys equally and the murder would have been averted.

If two little boys came to you and presented drawing they had done especially for you, would you stick one under a fridge-magnet and put the other in the bin? That is what God did in effect.

It was cruel and another example of terrible parenting.

... God was correct that Cain was an evil person who respected neither God nor man ... and this was proven by Cain's subsequent murder of Abel. However, God forgave ... and protected him, when he asked for mercy.

Masteroid wrote: »

And you still didn't address the question, why isn't Abel honoured as the first man to enter heaven?

Nobody knows ... except the person themselves ... and Jesus Christ, what the eternal destiny of anybody is.
We can speculate that Abel probably was Saved ... but we will all have to wait until we die to find out.

Masteroid wrote: »

And while we're on the subject, what species of animal was Cain's wife? There were no human women born for him to marry - what did he marry and make babies with?

The Bible records that Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters ... so Cain's wife, was his sister.

... and before you go off at 'half cock' about this being incest ... please bear in mind that marriage between close degrees of sanguinity wasn't banned until the time of Abraham ... when the perfection of the Human genome had declined to the point where the mutation load was so high that such marriages had an unacceptably high risk of genetic disease in the offspriing ... although such wise Biblical advice wasn't folowed by such notables as Charles Darwin ... who married his first cousin!!!

BTW Abraham himself was married to his sister Sarah ... and their son Isaac is the father (through Jacob) of the entire twelve tribes of Israel ... which includes every genetic Jew.