Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

Morag · 16-11-2012 01:53AM

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/maternity-hospital-chief-women-and-doctors-need-protection-574284.html

Maternity hospital chief: Women and doctors need protection.

gozunda · 16-11-2012 02:03AM

Foxhound38 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKifAdn8HCQ

How come it takes a US talk show to sum up exactly how I feel about this situation? I've never, ever been more embarrassed and ashamed by this country. May that poor woman forgive us our complacency - what an aweful way to die, and it's all our fault because we let it happen...

Sometimes the true impact of a situation is only properly reflected through some else's view of it

For those that don't think what happened does not reflect on the country and us as its citizens - take a good long hard look...

billybudd · 16-11-2012 02:09AM

gozunda wrote: »

Sometimes the true impact of a situation is only properly reflected through some else's view of it

For those that don't think what happened does not reflect on the country and us as its citizens - take a good long hard look...

Again, every country has its own shameful events, it is not so important how we are viewed, it is important how we respond.

Solair · 16-11-2012 02:11AM

We are viewed by how we respond.

If we do nothing, we are assumed to agree with what happened.

If we do something to change it, then we might be seen in a much better light.

tomasocarthaigh · 16-11-2012 02:15AM

I don't want to stir up a fuss on the pro-life issue, but a lot here would know my position on that. The recent Savita case in UCH Galway brings the abortion topic to sharp focus, and on thinking of all the angles on the case, and questioning very closely my heretofor thinking on the topic in general and moral implications - on an ethics point as much as on a faith based one - I still came out pro-life.

I thought the baby should have been removed, either by section or induction, as does every pro-life body as the operation is not abortion not being aimed to kill the child, but to save the mothers life, with the child dying as consequence, as it was going to being miscarried.

The doctor, in their fanaticism, thought he was God, and cited God to deny the removal of the baby. The woman died, as did the baby, a tragic outcome for all concerned.

Youth Defence, the Pope himself (not addressing this case in particualr, but cases similar in general previosly), every Protestant pro-life blog Ive read on the issue say she should have been saved by removing the baby, as do the secular pro-life blogs.

I hope, if you dont agree with the sentiments, at least you understand where a pro-lifer is coming from when trying to square this circle.

The Shepherd, The Wolf, The Ewe and the Lamb

gozunda · 16-11-2012 02:15AM

mazi wrote: »

Not necessarily is not a good answer if your life & job is at stake.The law needs to be very clear on this so let this be a precident for any future occurences.Unfortunatley as always someone always has to die a few times before people pull their heads out of the sand.Bet you if the Doctor did do what was morally right they would have been prosecuted for murder of the like.It seems to be a case of the doctor will be damned if he did and damned if he dont.

Don't take it personally but this is not 'my answer" It is simply a statement of things currently stand. However what makes what actually happened barbaric with the consultant not even attempting to give a bone fide medical reason why the procedure could not be carried out. The reference to 'this is a Catholic Country' shows the doctor to be either a moral coward, a bigot or a murder with the life of this woman was in his hands.

Yes he may have had some right wing pro lifer come after him but with the current standing of the constitution it is highly unlikely he would have faced prosecution. What it does show is that some medical providers lack any back bone when it come to doing what is ethically right.

oppenheimer1 · 16-11-2012 02:20AM

gozunda wrote: »

Don't take it personally but this is not 'my answer" It is simply a statement of things currently stand. However what makes what actually happened barbaric was the consultant not even attempting to give a bone fide medical reason why the procedure could not be carried out. The reference to 'this is a Catholic Country' shows the doctor to be either a moral coward, a bigot or a murder with the life of this woman was in his hands.

Yes he may have had some right wing pro lifer come after him but with the current standing of the constitution it is highly unlikely he would have faxed prosecution. What it does show is that some medical providers lack any back bone when it come to doing what is ethically right.

The medic could also have been trying badly to explain why he/she felt his/her hands were tied.

I disagree fundamentally with your attack on the medic - especially when the full facts of the case are unknown.

billybudd · 16-11-2012 02:20AM

gozunda wrote: »

Don't take it personally but this is not 'my answer" It is simply a statement of things currently stand. However what makes what actually happened barbaric was the consultant not even attempting to give a bone fide medical reason why the procedure could not be carried out. The reference to 'this is a Catholic Country' shows the doctor to be either a moral coward, a bigot or a murder with the life of this woman was in his hands.

Yes he may have had some right wing pro lifer come after him but with the current standing of the constitution it is highly unlikely he would have faxed prosecution. What it does show is that some medical providers lack any back bone when it come to doing what is ethically right.

Agree with partial bits of this, just one question, do you think nearly all the medical professionals coming out saying they need more clarity and legislation on this and more protection is a guise just to close shop and stick togeather? or is there confusion and fear regarding the interpretation of what the government and IMO say when it is ok to terminate?

gozunda · 16-11-2012 02:21AM

billybudd wrote: »

Again, every country has its own shameful events, it is not so important how we are viewed, it is important how we respond.

BB you are baiting the bottom feeders again I'm afraid.

your take on that is incorrect. It does matter because as a small country we rely heavily on the goodwill and relations with other countries, both economically and otherwise. International pressure may be just the kick up the ^rse this dank little country needs. It may be the catalyst we need for a proper response and not just the same old irish type solution we seem to come up with for everything.

billybudd · 16-11-2012 02:28AM

gozunda wrote: »

BB you are baiting the bottom feeders again I'm afraid.

your take on that is incorrect. It does matter because as a small country we rely heavily on the goodwill and relations with other countries, both economically and otherwise. International pressure may be just the kick up the ^rse this dank little country needs. It may be the catalyst we need for a proper response and not just the same old irish type solution we seem to come up with for everything.

Ill ignore your sneering ways.

How we respond will say alot internationaly.

As for goodwill? companies primarily invest here from overseas because of our generous tax breaks and low corporate tax, nothing to do with goodwill, financial sense.

They come here for a variety of reasons, when the scandals hit home about abuse by clergy and institutions it had no effect on why people come here.

This tragic thing that happened is rare and was not intentional in my opinion and if it opens the door to change and the loosening of draconian perceptions and laws then it will not have been in vain and hopefully no woman has to go throug this terrible thing again.

gozunda · 16-11-2012 02:30AM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The medic could also have been trying badly to explain why he/she felt his/her hands were tied.

I disagree fundamentally with your attack on the medic - especially when the full facts of the case are unknown.

Face it - his response and actions or lack of stink to high heaven especially given the context of what happened. No medical professional should ever come out with such a disgusting statement to a patient in his care considering the nature of the woman's condition. It matters not what religion or country he comes from. I do not believe His hands were tied - this trite sound bite does not fit the facts tbh - if he felt unable to provide adequate medical care to this woman, he should have excused himself from that responsibility. He didn't and he will have to face the backlash that his inaction has caused

MagicSean · 16-11-2012 02:33AM

It would be interesting if the doctor turned out not to be catholic

gozunda · 16-11-2012 02:35AM

billybudd wrote: »

Ill ignore your sneering ways.
How we respond will say alot internationaly. As for goodwill? companies primarily invest here from overseas because of our generous tax breaks and low corporate tax, nothing to do with goodwill, financial sense.
They come here for a variety of reasons, when the scandals hit home about abuse by clergy and institutions it had no effect on why people come here.
This tragic thing that happened is rare and was not intentional in my opinion and if it opens the door to change and the loosening of draconian perceptions and laws then it will not have been in vain and hopefully no woman has to go throug this terrible thing again.

Apologies if you believe I was "sneering" however I believe you may have taken that up incorrectly

I am not just talking companies and corporations here - the playing field is a lot larger than that. Let us not worry how we look but what we actually are

We have a view in this country that everyone loves us - well this clearly shows they don't. It may be the best thing for us to get our house together in this regard.

oppenheimer1 · 16-11-2012 02:40AM

gozunda wrote: »

Face it - his response and actions or lack of stink to high heaven especially given the context of what happened. No medical professional should ever come out with such a disgusting statement to a patient in his care considering the nature of the woman's condition. I do not believe His hands were tied - this trite sound bite does not fit the facts tbh - if he felt unable to provide adequate medical care to this woman, he should have excused himself from that responsibility. He didn't and he will have to face the backlash that his inaction has caused

Well I'll agree with you there, thats exactly what it is - a sound bite, presented without context. I do not know the facts of the case and neither do you. You should not rush to judgement on this individual, and your attitude stinks of a trial by media. Your charges are both currently baseless and outrageous. You clearly do not work in a high pressure, emotionally charged environment such as medicine.

Also, why the presumption that the doctor was male?

d'Oracle · 16-11-2012 02:43AM

gozunda wrote: »

Face it - his response and actions or lack of stink to high heaven especially given the context of what happened. No medical professional should ever come out with such a disgusting statement to a patient in his care considering the nature of the woman's condition. I do not believe His hands were tied - this trite sound bite does not fit the facts tbh - if he felt unable to provide adequate medical care to this woman, he should have excused himself from that responsibility. He didn't and he will have to face the backlash that his inaction has caused

What sound bite?
There has been no sound bite.

You know the sum total of bugger all about what was said and what the context was.
And from the sounds of it, you know even less about what conditions doctors are under.

billybudd · 16-11-2012 02:44AM

gozunda wrote: »

Apologies if you believe I was "sneering" however I believe you may have taken that up incorrectly

I am not just talking companies and corporations here - the playing field is a lot larger than that. Let us not worry how we look but what we actually are

We have a view in this country that everyone loves us - well this clearly shows they don't. It may be the best thing for us to get our house together in this regard.

We are not as bad as your making out and not as good as other people make us out to be, only a certain type of person would have the thought that everyone loves us, to a good preportion of the world we are not even relavant.

gozunda · 16-11-2012 02:45AM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Well I'll agree with you there, thats exactly what it is - a sound bite, presented without context. I do not know the facts of the case and neither do you. You should not rush to judgement on this individual, and your attitude stinks of a trial by media. Your charges are both currently baseless and outrageous. You clearly do not work in a high pressure, emotionally charged environment such as medicine.

Also, why the presumption that the doctor was male?

How baseless? The husband reported what was said to him and his wife and has detailed that there were others present. If this doctor would not excuse himself and thereby put the woman's life in jeopardy then he will have to face the consequences.
The woman is dead - I hope he can sleep at night...

d'Oracle · 16-11-2012 02:45AM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Well I'll agree with you there, thats exactly what it is - a sound bite, presented without context. I do not know the facts of the case and neither do you. You should not rush to judgement on this individual, and your attitude stinks of a trial by media. Your charges are both currently baseless and outrageous. You clearly do not work in a high pressure, emotionally charged environment such as medicine.

Also, why the presumption that the doctor was male?

Its not a feckin soundbite, a sound bite is something someone says, an actual quote.
It is a heavily editorialised snippet from the recollection of a conversation from an extremely distressed man

girl2 · 16-11-2012 02:48AM

Haven't read any of the posts, just want to acknowledge this poor poor woman's death, that was so uncalled for. And the suffering and heartache her poor husband is going through.

A waste of life here. Shocking, shocking.

gozunda · 16-11-2012 02:49AM

d'Oracle wrote: »

What sound bite?
There has been no sound bite.

You know the sum total of bugger all about what was said and what the context was.
And from the sounds of it, you know even less about what conditions doctors are under.

Oh deary me that was taken up incorrectly. Please do reread the post again.
The sound bite of the doctors 'hands were tied' - I have seen it written dozens of time without basis. He had the responsibility to step away if he could not provide the required treatment. It does not stand up to scrutiny. I watched and read the transcript of the interview with Savitas husband. Ie a first hand source - are you saying he shouldn't believed? Of course what he said may not suit everybody - I cannot help that tbh

seb65 · 16-11-2012 02:51AM

tomasocarthaigh wrote: »

I don't want to stir up a fuss on the pro-life issue, but a lot here would know my position on that. The recent Savita case in UCH Galway brings the abortion topic to sharp focus, and on thinking of all the angles on the case, and questioning very closely my heretofor thinking on the topic in general and moral implications - on an ethics point as much as on a faith based one - I still came out pro-life.

I thought the baby should have been removed, either by section or induction, as does every pro-life body as the operation is not abortion not being aimed to kill the child, but to save the mothers life, with the child dying as consequence, as it was going to being miscarried.

The doctor, in their fanaticism, thought he was God, and cited God to deny the removal of the baby. The woman died, as did the baby, a tragic outcome for all concerned.

Youth Defence, the Pope himself (not addressing this case in particualr, but cases similar in general previosly), every Protestant pro-life blog Ive read on the issue say she should have been saved by removing the baby, as do the secular pro-life blogs.

I hope, if you dont agree with the sentiments, at least you understand where a pro-lifer is coming from when trying to square this circle.

The Shepherd, The Wolf, The Ewe and the Lamb

Why does every anti-woman proponent talk about performing a c-section? Do you even know what it is? It's an invasive medical procedure where they cut through your abdomen - including the layers of muscle. It's a painful surgery to recover from and carries its own risks of infection. THE BABY WAS NOT VIABLE! There was some inherent defect, that's why a miscarriage occurred. It would not have survived if there'd been a c-section, inducement or a blessing from holy moses himself. My God, NO medical health professional would have recommended a c-section. I see Ireland's educational system, particularly in the sciences, is as backwards as its treatment of women.

billybudd · 16-11-2012 02:54AM

gozunda wrote: »

Sometimes the true impact of a situation is only properly reflected through some else's view of it

For those that don't think what happened does not reflect on the country and us as its citizens - take a good long hard look...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/sep/10/usman-javed-wife-baby-died-hospital

Dont recall the mass outrage, the imediate repsonse from government, the vigils and protests set up within a day of this becoming public.

oppenheimer1 · 16-11-2012 02:54AM

gozunda wrote: »

Don't take it personally but this is not 'my answer" It is simply a statement of things currently stand. However what makes what actually happened barbaric was the consultant not even attempting to give a bone fide medical reason why the procedure could not be carried out. The reference to 'this is a Catholic Country' shows the doctor to be either a moral coward, a bigot or a murder with the life of this woman was in his hands.

Yes he may have had some right wing pro lifer come after him but with the current standing of the constitution it is highly unlikely he would have faced prosecution. What it does show is that some medical providers lack any back bone when it come to doing what is ethically right.

gozunda wrote: »

How baseless? The husband reported what was said to him and his wife and has detailed that there were others present. If this doctor would not excuse himself and thereby put the woman's life in jeopardy then he will have to face the consequences.
The woman is dead - I hope he can sleep at night...

You do not know the facts of the case, therefore your charges bolded above are groundless. You have damned this doctor based on a snippet of a presumably longer conversation that you do not know the contents of or context in which it was discussed.

If you need this explained further to you, you are trolling.

What happened was wrong, but lets establish the facts to find out exactly what went wrong before we lay the blame.

billybudd · 16-11-2012 02:56AM

seb65 wrote: »

Why does every anti-woman proponent talk about performing a c-section? Do you even know what it is? It's an invasive medical procedure where they cut through your abdomen - including the layers of muscle. It's a painful surgery to recover from and carries its own risks of infection. THE BABY WAS NOT VIABLE! There was some inherent defect, that's why a miscarriage occurred. It would not have survived if there'd been a c-section, inducement or a blessing from holy moses himself. My God, NO medical health professional would have recommended a c-section. I see Ireland's educational system, particularly in the sciences, is as backwards as its treatment of women.

No need for that, you can make a point without insulting a whole country.

Flier · 16-11-2012 02:58AM

gozunda wrote: »

The sound bite of the doctors 'hands were tied' - I have seen it written dozens of time without basis. Check for yourself. It does not stand up to scrutiny. I watched and read the transcript of the interview with Savitas husband. Ie a first hand source - are you saying he shouldn't believed? Of course what he said may not suit everybody - I cannot help that tbh

So you've read the transcript and you know the context. Seems to me the husband has given many interviews to many orgonisations. None of us know the full facts, so save your damnation of individuals until we do.

seb65 · 16-11-2012 03:02AM

billybudd wrote: »

No need for that, you can make a point without insulting a whole country.

Please, some of the arguments about how it's possible to end a pregnancy without aborting a fetus are akin to people in Africa who believe they can get rid of their HIV virus by raping virgins. Disgusting ignorance.

billybudd · 16-11-2012 03:04AM

seb65 wrote: »

Please, some of the arguments about how it's possible to end a pregnancy without aborting a fetus are akin to people in Africa who believe they can get rid of their HIV virus by raping virgins. Disgusting ignorance.

That is a valid argument and one you made without insulting a sizeable amount of people who would agree with you in Ireland.

gozunda · 16-11-2012 03:10AM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

You do not know the facts of the case, therefore your charges bolded above are groundless. You have damned this doctor based on a snippet of a presumably longer conversation that you do not know the contents of or context in which it was discussed.

If you need this explained further to you, you are trolling.

What happened was wrong, but lets establish the facts to find out exactly what went wrong before we lay the blame.

So do you know more than that reported by the husband - if so please share. How about you find out what was said yourself rather than casting doubt on the husbands first hand account. What are you afraid of here. The doctor damned himself with that statement - as a professional it was inexcusable - a doctor who is used to dealing with the environment he was working in and presumably an expert in his field. He also failed to stand away if he could not provide the woman with the required treatment.

Of course a forum cannot convict or otherwise. - that does not mean that the issues at hand and detail available cannot be evaluated. Yes this is my opinion - I'm sure you have yours.

billybudd · 16-11-2012 03:13AM

gozunda wrote: »

So do you know more than that reported by the husband - if so please share. How about you find out what was said yourself rather than casting doubt on the husbands first hand account. What are you afraid of here. The doctor damned himself with that statement - as a professional it was inexcusable - a doctor who is used to dealing with the environment he was working in and presumably an expert in his field.

Of course a forum cannot convict or otherwise. - that does not mean that the issues at hand and detail available cannot be evaluated. Yes this is my opinion - I'm sure you have yours.

Do you know what context he used those words in? as magicsean said maybe anger or in defiance? that is a key issue would you not agree?

gozunda · 16-11-2012 03:19AM

billybudd wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/sep/10/usman-javed-wife-baby-died-hospital

Dont recall the mass outrage, the imediate repsonse from government, the vigils and protests set up within a day of this becoming public.

BB - is that your link? Ok I get what you have written below it but not too sure how it fits in with the section you quoted above from me re. how others may perceive Ireland following what happened in Galway.
Can you explain perhaps?

Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

Comments