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Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,992 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    EEm wrote: »
    Hi, just wondering did she die because she didn't get rid of the baby? Or what?

    At the moment there is no clear answer

    Looks like the coroners report should give some clarity on this

    What is known is that on admission she was fully dilated and was leaking amniotic fluid with the implication that she was at a high risk of infection

    A US medical professional has suggested that given the available information a termination should have been undertaken to minimise the risk of infection and maximise the woman's chances of recovery


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    gozunda wrote: »
    BB thanks for that - you appear to have been a mine of amazing detail - none of which I'm afraid I have paid a blind bit of notice to date tbh...no offence intended

    How would you know? none taken.

    However as you have replied to my last post I will suggest that with regard to our international reputation - it's taken hell of a battering - take a look at every single major newspaper / TV channel worldwide. Rightly or wrongly Ireland has come out as a medieval backwater with a belief system to match. Only a fully transparent response and action by the government to this horrendous matter is likely to help regain this.

    Small potatoes in the scheme of things, internationally it will be forgotten about next week.

    This is supposed to be the Year of the Gathering when we persuade poor benighted escapees to return so that they can hand over their well earned dosh so that we can continue paying developers to build mansions in bogs in the national interest.

    Called tourism, new marketing every year, this one is very clever though.


    As you have asked I for one give a Shyte. I know plenty others both here and abroad who are also. The more pressure nationally and internationally brought on this dank little island and its corrupt and bankrupt systems the better for all of us imo.

    The world has bigger problems than our little ''dank'' Island.

    I like the Gathering postcard idea...the rubbed in detritus that they have gathered in the bin adds a certain pathos...


    We agree on something.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Pot calling kettle black. Perhaps they should sort their child slavery problem and their own scandalous treatment of women and girls before lecturing the rest of the world.

    Ill treatment of women and children? Care to think of any irish examples of that?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    gozunda wrote: »
    Medical student?
    Pharmacy actually.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    Pot calling kettle black. Perhaps they should sort their child slavery problem and their own scandalous treatment of women and girls before lecturing the rest of the world.
    A crappy headline writer isn't the Indian government.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,992 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    billybudd wrote: »


    We agree on something.

    Just one thing - I notice you use the reply function but have included your comments within the the original quote - it makes a further reply by another poster very confusing for anyone else reading

    For example I replied to your last post but the reply only picked up the one comment placed outside the original quote...

    With regard to the postcards, if you don't mind sharing - what are you putting on yours?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 346 ✭✭petersburg2002


    steddyeddy wrote: »

    Ill treatment of women and children? Care to think of any irish examples of that?

    Do we abort children just because they are the wrong sex? And last time I looked we dont sell children into slavery. It's 2012, not 1962.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 346 ✭✭petersburg2002


    Madam_X wrote: »
    A crappy headline writer isn't the Indian government.

    Who mentioned the government? I didn't. I was talking about Indians as a whole. Including the writer of the inflammatory headline.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    gozunda wrote: »
    Maybe so...if you don't mind sharing - what are you putting on yours?


    Something along the lines that this has to be a watershed moment in our little dank Islands history that must not be let pass, that each pregnant woman recieves the best and safest health care possible, mentally and physically and that medical care professionals have a clear, precise and transparent mandate to work with that is clear in legislation that leaves no room for fear of reprecussions after the event.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    gozunda wrote: »
    Just one thing - I notice you use the reply function but have included your comments within the the original quote - it makes a further reply by another poster very confusing for anyone else reading

    For example I replied to your last post but the reply only picked up the one comment placed outside the original quote...

    With regard to the postcards, if you don't mind sharing - what are you putting on yours?


    Yes, do not know why that happened.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    Who mentioned the government? I didn't. I was talking about Indians as a whole. Including the writer of the inflammatory headline.
    Well the headline writer isn't Indian people as a whole. And I mentioned the government because it's behind policies you mentioned. She'd have been granted a termination on India anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Do we abort children just because they are the wrong sex? And last time I looked we didn't sell children into slavery. It's 2012, not 1962.

    I seem to remember children dying in "care" last year, the year before. A point thats put to me several times in the states when I lived there is "how did you'r people tolerate what went on in your country". One of the second in charge of the gaurds is currently a man who deliberatly lost files relating to brendan smyth after a victim went to him for help in the 80s. The cloyne report listed cases in the 2000s where cases were reported to gaurds and the files "surprise surprise" were lost again.

    On the treatment of women, just look what happened here. Look what happened with a sexaul assaulter who was asked to pay his victim money to reduce his sentence. In Kerry we had a line of people que up to shake a rapists hand.

    Sorry but im in a scientist I only accept evidence not random sayings like "the past was the past". When the head of the gaurds isnt someone responsbile for the suicide of child rape vicitms and the exact same hse workers arent working anymore then maybe we'll be able to hold our heads up high.

    And finally when the majority of the Irish people accept the above then things will change.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 346 ✭✭petersburg2002


    Madam_X wrote: »
    Well the headline writer isn't Indian people as a whole. And I mentioned the government because it's behind policies you mentioned. She'd have been granted a termination on India anyway.

    Well terminations are quite big there, especially for girls.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2011/10/201110415385524923.html[\URL]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I seem to remember children dying in "care" last year, the year before. A point thats put to me several times in the states when I lived there is "how did you'r people tolerate what went on in your country". One of the second in charge of the gaurds is currently a man who deliberatly lost files relating to brendan smyth after a victim went to him for help in the 80s. The cloyne report listed cases in the 2000s where cases were reported to gaurds and the files "surprise surprise" were lost again.

    On the treatment of women, just look what happened here. Look what happened with a sexaul assaulter who was asked to pay his victim money to reduce his sentence. In Kerry we had a line of people que up to shake a rapists hand.

    Sorry but im in a scientist I only accept evidence not random sayings like "the past was the past". When the head of the gaurds isnt someone responsbile for the suicide of child rape vicitms and the exact same hse workers arent working anymore then maybe we'll be able to hold our heads up high.

    And finally when the majority of the Irish people accept the above then things will change.

    Spot on, every country has its problems but also we should not neglect our own or have the mentality that just because it happens in other places does not mean it should happen here, too many people have suffered here and its something we should remember when electing people on our behalf.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭Madam_X


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I seem to remember children dying in "care" last year, the year before. A point thats put to me several times in the states when I lived there is "how did you'r people tolerate what went on in your country". One of the second in charge of the gaurds is currently a man who deliberatly lost files relating to brendan smyth after a victim went to him for help in the 80s. The cloyne report listed cases in the 2000s where cases were reported to gaurds and the files "surprise surprise" were lost again.
    On the treatment of women, just look what happened here. Look what happened with a sexaul assaulter who was asked to pay his victim money to reduce his sentence. In Kerry we had a line of people que up to shake a rapists hand. Sorry but im in a scientist I only accept evidence not random sayings like "the past was the past". When the head of the gaurds isnt someone responsbile for the suicide of child rape vicitms and the exact same hse workers arent working anymore then maybe we'll be able to hold our heads up high. And finally when the majority of the Irish people accept the above then things will change.
    But would they? The blaming of ordinary people isn't fair IMO.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Anyway back on topic for me. Just let the medics do their jobs. If we have medic operating by catholic laws as a scientist should I do the same? Why dont I say the starch as a collection of glucose molecules turn into plasma and heamoglobin to match to back up the communion transforming into the blood of christ story? Why dont we operate all our medical and scientific principles around a fairy tale.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01165s5

    Apparently there were quite a few witnesses to the "This is a Catholic country, it's against the law, our hands are tied" statement.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Madam_X wrote: »
    But would they? The blaming of ordinary people isn't fair IMO.

    I dont want to stray off topic about it madam so feel free to pm me and Ill back up my point. Ill justify it by saying that I see no one calling for the job of the assitant head of the gaurds involved in the abuse or those of the hse workers. Like I said I dont want to go off topic about it and take away from this tragedy but if you want to pm me or me or you can start another thread on the subject?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01165s5

    Apparently there were quite a few witnesses to the "This is a Catholic country, it's against the law, our hands are tied" statement.

    Wonder why a doctor would even say that, Italy is a Catholic country and it has abortion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    billybudd wrote: »
    Wonder why a doctor would even say that, Italy is a Catholic country and it has abortion.

    Yes that made my angry after hearing that. That doctor should face disciplinary action because of that.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    billybudd wrote: »
    Wonder why a doctor would even say that, Italy is a Catholic country and it has abortion.

    Probably said it because it frustrated him that he could do nothing due to the catholic derived laws.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    MagicSean wrote: »
    Probably said it because it frustrated him that he could do nothing due to the catholic derived laws.


    Possibly i suppose, the reason i refuse to blame the CC is becaue i refuse to beleive that we are still under the thumb of such a depraved institution.

    I would like to think we have a stronger mentality to being able to decide what is better for human life regardless of our personal beliefs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    billybudd wrote: »
    Possibly i suppose, the reason i refuse to blame the CC is becaue i refuse to beleive that we are still under the thumb of such a depraved institution.

    I would like to think we have a stronger mentality to being able to decide what is better for human life regardless of our personal beliefs.

    Even if you believe that you can't deny the legacy of their influence on the law, education, medicine. And it's not as if the Vatican has changed in the slightest bit since the peak of their influence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    MagicSean wrote: »
    Even if you believe that you can't deny the legacy of their influence on the law, education, medicine. And it's not as if the Vatican has changed in the slightest bit since the peak of their influence.


    All true, except the mentality of the people have, declining numbers in mass, alterboys, christenings and even priests/nuns to name a few.

    Rights for gay people including civil ceremony surely if that can be legislated then why couldnt the legislation for this have been done and dusted, am i right in thinking the CC or iona institute were successful in their lobby of this but not for gay civil rights? or was it just more trendy for people to make gay rights more important?

    **Nothing at all against gay rights**


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKifAdn8HCQ

    How come it takes a US talk show to sum up exactly how I feel about this situation? I've never, ever been more embarrassed and ashamed by this country. May that poor woman forgive us our complacency - what an aweful way to die, and it's all our fault because we let it happen...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    https://www.facebook.com/events/452409004796258/

    Vigils tomorrow The Liberty Tree Carlow and The Town Hall Kilkenny 4pm.

    And in Wexford on Friday

    https://www.facebook.com/events/485537601491091/

    Vigil in on Friday.

    Message in a Bottle ...To remember Savita
    Today at 18:00
    Wexford Quay in Wexford, Ireland


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 164 ✭✭mazi


    gozunda wrote: »
    mazi - the doctor would not necessarily have been "breaking the law" this was clarified in the Dail today. The medical Council is quite clear where treatment is required to save a womans life then intervention is allowed. This comes from the Supreme Courts clarification of the Constitution. However the fact that he may not have provided the necessary care and may be found to have been negligent could lead to him being struck off practising medicine and possibly sent to prison OR being sued by the family of the woman concerned. What is damning was his citing of "its a catholic country" rather than bone fide medical reasons.

    Not necessarily is not a good answer if your life & job is at stake.The law needs to be very clear on this so let this be a precident for any future occurences.Unfortunatley as always someone always has to die a few times before people pull their heads out of the sand.Bet you if the Doctor did do what was morally right they would have been prosecuted for murder of the like.It seems to be a case of the doctor will be damned if he did and damned if he dont.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    mazi wrote: »
    Not necessarily is not a good answer if your life & job is at stake.The law needs to be very clear on this so let this be a precident for any future occurences.Unfortunatley as always someone always has to die a few times before people pull their heads out of the sand.Bet you if the Doctor did do what was morally right they would have been prosecuted for murder of the like.It seems to be a case of the doctor will be damned if he did and damned if he dont.


    Exactly, and not to make light of this but if you flip this situation around and the mother lived and filed a complaint, law suit and criminal prosecution against the doctor because he terminated her pregnancy while there was still a heartbeat then the argument and anger would still be the same.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    billybudd wrote: »
    All true, except the mentality of the people have, declining numbers in mass, alterboys, christenings and even priests/nuns to name a few.

    Rights for gay people including civil ceremony surely if that can be legislated then why couldnt the legislation for this have been done and dusted, am i right in thinking the CC or iona institute were successful in their lobby of this but not for gay civil rights? or was it just more trendy for people to make gay rights more important?

    **Nothing at all against gay rights**

    Yet 84% of people still declared themselves as Catholics.
    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKifAdn8HCQ

    How come it takes a US talk show to sum up exactly how I feel about this situation? I've never, ever been more embarrassed and ashamed by this country. May that poor woman forgive us our complacency - what an aweful way to die, and it's all our fault because we let it happen...

    That was painful to watch.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    MagicSean wrote: »
    Yet 84% of people still declared themselves as Catholics.


    Fair enough, but what is your view on the second part?


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