Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

mikom · 15-11-2012 07:09PM

SomethingElse wrote: »

Was the choice not taken away by the doctor?

Was the doctor hamstrung by the law?

Was the law hamstrung by religion?

MagicSean wrote: »

That's not cold. Practically a Summers day.
But when our maternal death rates are so much lower than theirs I can't see how they could have an moral authority for it.

Fuck moral authority.
Moral authority is cold comfort when the pillow next to you is empty.

hooradiation · 15-11-2012 07:10PM

MagicSean wrote: »

But when our maternal death rates are so much lower than theirs I can't see how they could have an moral authority for it.

Moral authority? Get out.
As a nation we have fucked up really badly - and unsurprisingly, when you fuck up people get to call you on it.
Getting all Tu quoque about it doesn't change that in the slightest.

You're welcome.

Rascasse · 15-11-2012 07:10PM

MagicSean wrote: »

But when our maternal death rates are so much lower than theirs I can't see how they could have an moral authority for it.

I really wish people would stop touting Ireland's ever so impressive maternal mortality rate. It's irrelevant, this woman died.

frfintanstack · 15-11-2012 07:14PM

annascott wrote: »

I know it doesn't bring Salvita back, but shouldn't there at least be a book of condolence from Ireland to India. I for one would feel better that it was known that we are not all as religiously swayed and barbaric as the people responsible for her death. On a public front, Ireland seems to be shrugging it's shoulders and trying to avoid blame rather than genuinely apologising.

If the facts of this case are as reported this case has nothing to do with catholicism or irish abortion law and is entirely to do with medical malpractice.

Its sad that this woman died.

Does Ireland need to apologise for it? Hell No, we have nothing to apologise for.

The amount of self loathing nonsense going on is amazing.

SomethingElse · 15-11-2012 07:15PM

mikom wrote: »

Was the doctor hamstrung by the law?

But the doctor would have been legally entitled to perform an abortion, had he deemed it necessary.

later12 · 15-11-2012 07:15PM

MagicSean wrote: »

That's not cold. Practically a Summers day.

But when our maternal death rates are so much lower than theirs I can't see how they could have an moral authority for it.

Invoking hypocrisy is a logical fallacy, as noted above.

It doesn't make us any less wrong or their grievance at our human rights shortcomings any less valid.

I wish people would leave this issue of maternal mortality aside, being as it is entirely irrelevant.

Mortality can be low for many reasons. It's the equivalent of saying

"Irish people have low incidence of AIDS by African standards"
"Irish people drink more Guinness than Africans"
"Therefore Guinness helps prevent AIDS"

General maternal mortality rates are irrelevant to this discussion to an exasperating degree, yet this line about how great our mortality stats are seems to be rolled out without correction both in the media and online.

frfintanstack · 15-11-2012 07:17PM

mikom wrote: »

Was the doctor hamstrung by the law?

Was the law hamstrung by religion?

The answer to those 2 questions is categorically NO!

This case has nothing to do with Irelands abortion laws....and everything to do with one hospitals management of a miscarriage

(and before you start I think abortion should be legalised up to 12weeks on demand)

Unfortunately when abortion becomes involved people cant see past their outrage

MagicSean · 15-11-2012 07:18PM

mikom wrote: »

Was the doctor hamstrung by the law?

Was the law hamstrung by religion?

Fuck moral authority.
Moral authority is cold comfort when the pillow next to you is empty.

hooradiation wrote: »

Moral authority? Get out.
As a nation we have fucked up really badly - and unsurprisingly, when you fuck up people get to call you on it.
Getting all Tu quoque about it doesn't change that in the slightest.

You're welcome.

Rascasse wrote: »

I really wish people would stop touting Ireland's ever so impressive maternal mortality rate. It's irrelevant, this woman died.

I disagree. India has such a high mortality rate during childbirth there criticism of our system is invalid.

The Waltzing Consumer · 15-11-2012 07:18PM

mikom wrote: »

Was the doctor hamstrung by the law?

Was the law hamstrung by religion?

No, the law is pretty clear, unless people are lying.

"Abortion in the Republic of Ireland is illegal unless it occurs as the result of a medical intervention performed to save the life of the mother."
Charleton, Peter; McDermott, Paul Anthony; Bolger, Marguerite (1999). Criminal law. Dublin: Butterworths. p. 518.

Even Michael Martin, horrible FF as they are states:
""The Medical Council guidelines provide for the termination of the pregnancy when a mother's life is in danger and in fact the medical guidelines available to the hospital would have provided for that where there is a threat to the mother's life.""

""In Ireland, the maternal death rate is very low because of the fact that they do treat the mother's life as paramount. Why wouldn't you?""

http://www.herald.ie/news/law-on-x-case-would-not-have-saved-savita-says-martin-3294869.html

Have to say, he makes sense. I think people really gotta wait and reserve judgement till facts are known

hooradiation · 15-11-2012 07:21PM

MagicSean wrote: »

I disagrre. .

And you are wrong.
It's that simple.

mikom · 15-11-2012 07:23PM

SomethingElse wrote: »

But the doctor would have been legally entitled to perform an abortion, had he deemed it necessary.

frfintanstack wrote: »

The answer to those 2 questions is categorically NO!

This case has nothing to do with Irelands abortion laws....and everything to do with one hospitals management of a miscarriage

(and before you start I think abortion should be legalised up to 12weeks on demand)

Unfortunately when abortion becomes involved people cant see past their outrage

Was it necessary, was it not?
It will be interesting to see the results of the investigation into this.

We'll leave aside the request for the termination by the injured parties....

later12 · 15-11-2012 07:24PM

SomethingElse wrote: »

But the doctor would have been legally entitled to perform an abortion, had he deemed it necessary.

You overlook the basic fact that the medic in this could have been found to have behaved either unprofessionally by the IMC or even criminally by a court, given there is no clear procedure to establish when the mother is or is not in mortal danger to a degree that would deem an abortion justifiable.

How on Earth can they know where to draw the line? These are doctors, not politicians or moral theologians. If we tell them what we want them to do, they can do it. Until then, we have to anticipate more Salvitas, or more A, cases, B cases, C cases, X cases....

gozunda · 15-11-2012 07:26PM

Rascasse wrote: »

I really wish people would stop touting Ireland's ever so impressive maternal mortality rate. It's irrelevant, this woman died.

As did two others deaths this year as highlighted in the Dail debate.

The problem with such statistics is that they can be manipulated to show whatever is required by whomever.

I would be very slow to cite such statistics considering the data was gathered in the main by catholic controlled hospitals.

I would like to see some rigorous statistical testing of this data

Personally the tendency here to say we have the best educated, the widest street, the biggest park is all part of a naive nationalism that we have never quite got over.

Having only once been in a religious controlled hospital - one of the largest in the state gave me enough reason never to darken its doors again.

It's peculiar that those being most sceptical about the religious agenda as stated in this woman's tragic death are the ones who keep quoting this questionable statistic

Strange but true...

frfintanstack · 15-11-2012 07:28PM

mikom wrote: »

Was it necessary, was it not?
It will be interesting to see the results of the investigation into this.

We'll leave aside the request for the termination by the injured parties....

It may be a simple case of poor clinical practice.

At this point unfortunately nobody knows until the investigation...

deciding that Ireland is some awful backward place where women are allowed to die for the lack of treatment on the basis of one side of a story is pretty crazy.

hotmail.com · 15-11-2012 07:29PM

frfintanstack wrote: »

If the facts of this case are as reported this case has nothing to do with catholicism or irish abortion law and is entirely to do with medical malpractice.

Its sad that this woman died.

Does Ireland need to apologise for it? Hell No, we have nothing to apologise for.

The amount of self loathing nonsense going on is amazing.

She asked for a termination and she didn't get it.

What part of that don't you understand.

Madam_X · 15-11-2012 07:31PM

I wish people would stop saying "we" as a nation are responsible though - you'd swear YD, the church and simpering TDs many of us did not vote for represented us all (yes I know the latter are public representatives but they dont literally represent all our views). You'd swear we were all alive/old enough to effect change during the dark days.
Some of the very people who go on about "we" would find it unacceptable if someone here posted that another country is to blame as a nation for something as atrocious as this taking place there.
We, as a nation, need to fight for change, but we are not all to blame for this tragedy.

Someone commented on one of the blogs re this case that Ireland is worse for women than Saudi Arabia. Really an appalling disregard for what Saudi Arabian women suffer.

Btw, going on about India's record in this regard is a load of shyte too.

mikom · 15-11-2012 07:35PM

In reply to : Was the doctor hamstrung by the law? Was the law hamstrung by religion?

First you said........

frfintanstack wrote: »

The answer to those 2 questions is categorically NO!

This case has nothing to do with Irelands abortion laws....and everything to do with one hospitals management of a miscarriage

(and before you start I think abortion should be legalised up to 12weeks on demand)

Unfortunately when abortion becomes involved people cant see past their outrage

Then you said

frfintanstack wrote: »

It may be a simple case of poor clinical practice.

At this point unfortunately nobody knows until the investigation...

deciding that Ireland is some awful backward place where women are allowed to die for the lack of treatment on the basis of one side of a story is pretty crazy.

Sure or unsure?

frfintanstack · 15-11-2012 07:37PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

She asked for a termination and she didn't get it.

What part of that don't you understand.

Maybe the doctors didnt think it was appropriate management in the clinical setting.....what part of that don't you understand?

The woman was having a miscarriage, it has nothing to do with abortion on demand.

Doctors are under no obligation to perform procedures that they dont believe is appropriate be it surgical management of a miscarriage or a heart bypass.

gozunda · 15-11-2012 07:42PM

later12 wrote: »

You overlook the basic fact that the medic in this could have been found to have behaved either unprofessionally by the IMC or even criminally by a court, given there is no clear procedure to establish when the mother is or is not in mortal danger to a degree that would deem an abortion justifiable.

How on Earth can they know where to draw the line? These are doctors, not politicians or moral theologians. If we tell them what we want them to do, they can do it. Until then, we have to anticipate more Salvitas, or more A, cases, B cases, C cases, X cases....

Medical professional are trained in risk Assesment and best practice. Where there was a real and likely risk to the life of the mother then the decision is a no brainier. To cite any decision on the statement given "this is a catholic country" is not only not professional but is a gross insult to anyone placing themselves in the care of our supposedly state controlled hospitals.

Lingua Franca · 15-11-2012 07:44PM

gozunda wrote: »

As did two others deaths this year as highlighted in the Dail debate.

The problem with such statistics is that they can be manipulated to show whatever is required by whomever.

I would be very slow to cite such statistics considering the data was gathered in the main by catholic controlled hospitals.

I would like to see some rigorous statistical testing of this data

Personally the tendency here to say we have the best educated, the widest street, the biggest park is all part of a naive nationalism that we have never quite got over.

Having only once been in a religious controlled hospital - one of the largest in the state gave me enough reason never to darken its doors again.

It's peculiar that those being most sceptical about the religious agenda as stated in this woman's tragic death are the ones who keep quoting this questionable statistic

Strange but true...

According to AIMS

Ireland's classification system masks the true numbers for maternal death. In EU and UK, maternal death is recorded for direct and indirect deaths (homicide, suicide, etc) in pregnancy, birth or up to a year after birth. In IRELAND, maternal death is only recorded for direct death (ie maternity related complications) in pregnancy, birth, and only 42 days following birth. Once Ireland is forced to comply with EU standards of classification in 2013, our rates will jump from 1 per 100,000 to around 10 per 100,000 - similar to UK and EU states.

And there's this: http://www.medicalindependent.ie/page.aspx?title=maternal_death_%E2%80%93_into_the_great_unknown

frfintanstack · 15-11-2012 07:45PM

mikom wrote: »

In reply to : Was the doctor hamstrung by the law? Was the law hamstrung by religion?

First you said........

Then you said

Sure or unsure?

Talking about 2 completely different things there buddy, getting confused are we?

I'll lay it out for you.

In any case of the management of miscarriage (any miscarriage) the doctor isn't hamstrung by irelands abortion laws (they are nothing to do with it)

in a seperate point

this case may have been improperly managed by the hospital....we wont know that until the investigation...

clear?

gozunda · 15-11-2012 07:52PM

Lingua Franca wrote: »

According to AIMS

And there's this: http://www.medicalindependent.ie/page.aspx?title=maternal_death_%E2%80%93_into_the_great_unknown

Thanks for the addendum - it is a very serious concern that we are pretending to be some how a first world provider of maternal care. The truth is far from that.

frfintanstack · 15-11-2012 07:58PM

gozunda wrote: »

Thanks for the addendum - it is a very serious concern that we are pretending be some how a first world provider of maternal care. The truth is far from that.

Misleading point there friend.

We are a first world provider of maternal care.

From that article if we measure the stats the same as others.....it puts us the same as the UK and EU. Surely they count as first world?

We are not talking about hiding stats that have us looking like bangladesh!!

petersburg2002 · 15-11-2012 07:59PM

It's a sad day indeed when a country like India where children are still in bonded labour has to lecture our government to get its house in order.

kunst nugget · 15-11-2012 08:00PM

Madam_X wrote: »

I wish people would stop saying "we" as a nation are responsible though - you'd swear YD, the church and simpering TDs many of us did not vote for represented us all (yes I know the latter are public representatives but they dont literally represent all our views). You'd swear we were all alive/old enough to effect change during the dark days.
Some of the very people who go on about "we" would find it unacceptable if someone here posted that another country is to blame as a nation for something as atrocious as this taking place there.
We, as a nation, need to fight for change, but we are not all to blame for this tragedy.

Someone commented on one of the blogs re this case that Ireland is worse for women than Saudi Arabia. Really an appalling disregard for what Saudi Arabian women suffer.

Btw, going on about India's record in this regard is a load of shyte too.

But we're Irish! We love feeling guilty!

Lingua Franca · 15-11-2012 08:01PM

Irish pro life groups often point to the Netherlands saying "look, our maternal mortality is better than theirs and they have abortion on demand!". That may be so, but the comparison between maternal mortality and the availability of abortion is utterly irrelevant.

The actual reason that maternal mortality is higher than the rest of Europe because the vast majority, something like 60%, of women here in the Netherlands give birth at home. This is a concern and it is changing, but slowly because homebirths are culturally entrenched here. If I become pregnant again I will insist on a hospital birth.

gozunda · 15-11-2012 08:03PM

frfintanstack wrote: »

Misleading point there friend.
We are a first world provider of maternal care.
From that article if we measure the stats the same as others.....it puts us the same as the UK and EU. Surely they count as first world?
We are not talking about hiding stats that have us looking like bangladesh!!

I will take it that you did't actually read the article then. It clearly states that our statistics are at least misleading and at worse a gross inaccuracy

later12 · 15-11-2012 08:03PM

gozunda wrote: »

Medical professional are trained in risk Assesment and best practice. Where there was a real and likely risk to the life of the mother then the decision is a no brainier. To cite any decision on the statement given "this is a catholic country" is not only not professional but is a gross insult to anyone placing themselves in the care of our supposedly state controlled hospitals.

It depends what is meant by that phrase.

A busy medic may not have time to get into the intricacies of Irish social history, what may have been meant was that "this is a country still burdened with the after effects of Catholic moral theology".

I mean it's pretty hard to imagine that someone would start getting all John Charles MxQuaid on someone whose wife was in pain and carrying a dying baby in her womb. I find that hard to believe on a human level.

I would have presumed that the Catholic thing was a reference to the genesis of the legal sitiuation; admittedly that is wild & unreliable speculation on my part.

mikom · 15-11-2012 08:04PM

frfintanstack wrote: »

Talking about 2 completely different things there buddy, getting confused are we?

I'll lay it out for you.

In any case of the management of miscarriage (any miscarriage) the doctor isn't hamstrung by irelands abortion laws (they are nothing to do with it)

in a seperate point

this case may have been improperly managed by the hospital....we wont know that until the investigation...

clear?

As clear a Flutterin bantam on a clear day........... old buddy, old pal.

Oh look.......... 18 posts, but you seem familiar.

gozunda · 15-11-2012 08:09PM

later12 wrote: »

It depends what is meant by that phrase.

A busy medic may not have time to get into the intricacies of Irish social history, what may have been meant was that "this is a country still burdened with the after effects of Catholic moral theology".

I mean it's pretty hard to imagine that someone would start getting all John Charles MxQuaid on someone whose wife was in pain and carrying a dying baby in her womb. I find that hard to believe on a human level.

I would have presumed that the Catholic thing was a reference to the genesis of the legal sitiuation; admittedly that is wild & unreliable speculation on my part.

I appreciate your imagination but the statement given "this is a catholic country" was given in response to the request for a termination. Consisting that UCHG is a RC orientated organisation and that the previous head of maternity services lead and chaired the Dublin Convention symposium which concluded that 'there is never a reason for a termination to save the life of the mother.

In this respect the statement about being a catholic country taken in context is absolutely damning.

Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

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