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Boardsies 10k plan by debate

  • 13-11-2012 11:02am
    #1
    ecoli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭


    A follow on from the successful marathon version I thought we could aim to do something similar for a shorter distance and given there is considerable discussion of 10ks at the moment post Marathon I thought might be a good distance to choose.

    (for anyone who missed the last thread its here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72532515)

    This discussion will be based with say a 35 min -sub 40 min target in mind

    Each question will be taken one at a time and every answer must be backed up with reasoning (there are no right or wrong answers as long as you back up your statements)

    (Hopefully this will take off as well as the previous one)

    Will start with same question;

    How long should a 10k specific plan be?


«13

Comments

  • #2
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    Great idea ecoli.

    How long should a 10k specific plan be?

    I think it really depends what you want to get out of the race. The McMillan plan is over 8 weeks and this is probably the most common amount of time people set aside for a 10k specific plan. I know a lot of people also run their best 10k times off the back of marathon training. I think if a 10k is your goal race for the year then it should be no different than training for a marathon with a 18-24 week plan. Something like the Daniels 5-15k plan which I know a few lads here have had great success with.
    Personally speaking my target race for the first half of next year is the K club 10k and I will following the Daniels plan, I'm currently (kind of) doing phase 1, the base phase so slowly increasing mileage towards 50-60 miles a week with the odd session thrown in (Daniels base phase has no quality work, just all easy running).


  • #3
    EMPM
    Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭EMPM


    Great idea as i am targeting a sub 40min 10k next year. I have actually never ran a 10k, have s 5k pb of 19:12, half 1:30 and marathon 3:23, so i think i can do it, but just not sure what training to do. I was thinking of keeping up a long run at the weekend 10m - 13m and doing intervals and tempo runs during the week, so any specific advice would be great.

    Cheers


  • #4
    KielyUnusual
    Registered Users Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭KielyUnusual


    What race pace session do you think would be the best indicator that you're on target, and when should you do this? If it's an interval session, would you do a walking or jogging recovery and for how long?


  • #5
    TRR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,642 ✭✭✭TRR


    ecoli wrote: »

    How long should a 10k specific plan be?

    My next one will be 10-12 weeks. Targeting 10k in the middle of April. A little longer than some may prescribe but there will be a couple of easy weeks in there as I will have 2 build up races and will taper specifically for these. One definitely will be a 5k the other will be a 5 or 10k. The 12 week program assumes I have been ticking over nicely in the preceeding weeks obviously and not coming from my usual post Christmas fat bastard starting point.
    EMPM wrote: »
    Great idea as i am targeting a sub 40min 10k next year. I have actually never ran a 10k, have s 5k pb of 19:12, half 1:30 and marathon 3:23, so i think i can do it, but just not sure what training to do. I was thinking of keeping up a long run at the weekend 10m - 13m and doing intervals and tempo runs during the week, so any specific advice would be great.

    Cheers

    Will definitely be keeping up a long run of some sort. Absolute minimum of 12 miles but anything up to 16 miles. Remaining 2 key sessions will be tempo or fartlek (tempo preferably) and mile intervals. Will change slightly week to week but that's the general basis


  • #6
    TRR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,642 ✭✭✭TRR


    Before I go any further, these are just my thoughts. I'm sure some will disagree and until recently I've never ran a half decent 10k so you may want to take what I say with a pinch of salt
    KielyUnusual wrote: »
    What race pace session do you think would be the best indicator that you're on target, and when should you do this? If it's an interval session, would you do a walking or jogging recovery and for how long?

    I do a 3 * 2 mile interval session. Pace is close to 10k pace although can be hard to replicate in training I do generally get close. I take 2.5-3 minute recovery. Do it every second week with mile repeats on alternative weeks. Get through 3 sessions of that and you're ready to rock. I see McMillian recommends this session but he only prescribes it once I think. I do it a few times and week to week bring the pace down so I'm running at my current 10k pace, not goal 10k pace. Obviously the last time you do it one should try to run goal pace.


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  • #7
    nobody told me
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭nobody told me


    Thinking of following the daniels 5k-15k plan, only ran one 10k 38:29. I would hope to get to high 36s. Should my training paces be at the 36 range? Thanks.


  • #8
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    nobody told me wrote: »
    Thinking of following the daniels 5k-15k plan, only ran one 10k 38:29. I would hope to get to high 36s. Should my training paces be at the 36 range? Thanks.

    Generally the advice would be to train at race pace to simulate race discomfort but rather than launching straight into sessions at 36 pace you might be better racing a 5k and seeing where you are fitness wise, this would give you a good indication of your current 10k pace and you could work off of that.


  • #9
    seanynova
    Registered Users Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭seanynova


    1) Run a lot! Volume done just below your personal limit, week after week is gold!

    2) Vary your training intensity (some easy paced, some moderate, and some faster). A mix of about 75% easy, 15-20% moderate, and about 5-10% faster is about right for the vast majority of people running 5k races or longer.

    3) Run hills in training 2 times per week. Specific leg strength is vital to running success. The stronger your legs are the more training you can do without breaking down. The more training you can do without breaking down the better your race performances will be, on average.

    4) Don't overthink. Set up a simple plan and stick to it. Stop worrying about all the x and y parts of training and just execute a well designed weekly schedule over and over and over.

    A weekly schedule that includes 1 CV interval session (5km pace per km + 10 secs), 1 tempo over hills or tempo plus hills, and a long run or a 2 runs of about 45-60 minutes with some of it moderate, plus 2 strider sesisons per week (5-10 x 100m at 5k, gradually increasing the speed as you legs warm up, and never straining), plus plenty of easy distance work is going to place 95% of the runners at 95% of their peak fitness - or better.

    good idea for a thread, its a key distance for all, those looking to expand their diatance or improove there marathon times.

    Above is an extract from one of 'Tergats' posts a few years ago....some good advice in there!


  • #10
    ecoli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭ecoli


    Finally getting around to answer this myself:


    How long should a 10k specific plan be?:

    I think if 10 is your target race then you need to have a minimum of about 16 weeks training broken down into two phases:

    Phase 1

    This would be focused on general all round running fitness. The aim here is to build strength but also try to keep in touch with a wide range of paces in order to attain maximum fitness benefits. Here we would include mile paced reps (economy), hills reps (leg strength and economy), 3k-5k paced reps (Vo2), Tempos and MP runs (AnT and AeT development) and long runs for endurance.
    The aim of this phase is to make your body capable of running your goal 10k pace from here you can work on making it feel more comfortable through sustained efforts.
    While ideally this part of an overall 10k plan you can perhaps look at this stage as independent and targetting a shorter race. This sort of training should yield benefits for many at shorter distances so could be viewed as good 5k training despite the lack of specificity

    Phase 2

    This phase is all about focusing your pace around 10k and aiming to get your body as comfortable as possible at running at these speeds. The preceeding phase should have the body prepared to be able to handle running at these paces. Rather than aim on improving your pace as the weeks progress target pace is set out from the 1st session. Here the aim is similar to Cavona in that we are aiming to increase distance rather than pace.

    The week is based around 1 key session @ 10k pace with the volume aiming to come as close to race time duration as possible (within the constraints of weekly mile) if mileage is sufficient the aim would be to try have volume of reps as close to 10k as possible). Each week the rep durations increase.

    An example of an 8 week progression for an athlete of say 70-80 mpw might look something like this

    24x400 @ 10k pace w/45 sec
    12x800m @ 10k w/90 sec
    10x1000m w/2 min rec
    6x1 mile w/ 2 min rec
    5x2k @ 10k with 3 min rec
    3x3k @ 10k with 4 min rec
    3x2 mile w / 4 min rec


    For those who aim to put in down weeks every 4-5 weeks this can still be attained by ammending he rest of the week (perhaps even cut out second session instead of just reducing volume) but we want to keep the legs in touch with race pace throughout the phase.

    The second session in a week should be based around paces which supplement 10k training (so 5k and HM predominantly). The aim is to keep quality training based slightly above and below race pace. Though there should be one or two sessions at quicker/slower (mile pace or MP) just to enhance fitness by adding the odd different stimulus the rest are based around the above 3 paces for the most part.

    Half way through the plan also it is not a bad idea to change a Tempo run to a race simulation running approx half the distance at race pace (a 5k race here would be perfect and run at 10k pace).


    If someone is coming off a low base however I would advise a "base phase" in order to have the fitness to be able to take on the general phase. This phase would be 4-6 weeks with 2 weeks of easy running followed b 2-4 weeks of 1 x Steady run and 1-2 x 6* 80 m strides. This phase gives people a chance to build their mileage to a sufficient level



    The outline I have put across seems to be very similar to the ones put across earlier (tRR s 12 week coming off decent fitness) and the general template of 10k specific session/Tempo or 5k reps and Long Run is one which generally seems to be accepted


  • #11
    ecoli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭ecoli


    KielyUnusual wrote: »
    What race pace session do you think would be the best indicator that you're on target, and when should you do this? If it's an interval session, would you do a walking or jogging recovery and for how long?

    Again this would go back to the overall plan of getting comfortable running at target race pace. If you progress through the sessions and are consistently unable to hit target times (not just a bad once off as can happen to anyone) then obviously you are going to struggle race day. The aim is to be both physically and mentally prepared for the pace come race day


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  • #12
    ecoli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭ecoli


    Ok I will aim to add a question every now and then just to keep the momentum going. If people however have their own questions to spark up the debate by all means go ahead (means less work for me:D).

    The only thing is give the previous question a bit of time to allow people to comment on to keep some coherency to the thread rather than people tooing and frowing from question to question.

    Next questions

    Mileage? How much
    Long run? How important and how long?


  • #13
    TRR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,642 ✭✭✭TRR


    ecoli wrote: »

    Mileage? How much
    Long run? How important and how long?

    Quick answers.

    Mileage 80-90% of typical marathon mileage (if you're coming from that background).

    Long run: very very important, pissing into the wind if you're doing intervals and no long run. I'd say typically 14 miles


  • #14
    DogSlySmile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭DogSlySmile


    ecoli wrote: »
    Long run? How important and how long?

    I followed Fitzgeralds 'Brain Training' 10k plan over the summer, and the only thing I felt that was wrong with it (looking back) was the lack of a long run. The longest run in this plan was 14 miles. While following the plan I always felt like I ran out of steam 7-8k into a 10k race, and I attribute that to the lack of endurance as my long run wasnt long enough. It was a good plan overall though, got my PB down from 38:XX to 36:30. But going forward I'll try to add 16 - 20 mile LSR into a 10k plan.


  • #15
    EMPM
    Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭EMPM


    ecoli wrote: »
    Mileage? How much
    Long run? How important and how long?

    plan to do about 30 miles p/w

    long run will be 10 - 13 miles, but not to sure at what pace, maybe half marathon pace?. I think it is very important to get the long run in to keep endurance levels up.


  • #16
    ecoli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭ecoli


    EMPM wrote: »
    plan to do about 30 miles p/w

    long run will be 10 - 13 miles, but not to sure at what pace, maybe half marathon pace?. I think it is very important to get the long run in to keep endurance levels up.

    Be very careful here this could end up as a recipe for disaster in terms of injury. You are effectively planning on running close to half your mileage per week in one run and than run you plan on doing a full race distance at race pace?

    You need to keep the long run proportionate to your weekly mileage so would have to a)increase mileage or b)reduce long run.

    In terms of pace as well your body should recieve enough stimulus from an easy long run for endurance purposes given your low mileage base


  • #17
    EMPM
    Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭EMPM


    ecoli wrote: »
    Be very careful here this could end up as a recipe for disaster in terms of injury. You are effectively planning on running close to half your mileage per week in one run and than run you plan on doing a full race distance at race pace?

    You need to keep the long run proportionate to your weekly mileage so would have to a)increase mileage or b)reduce long run.

    In terms of pace as well your body should recieve enough stimulus from an easy long run for endurance purposes given your low mileage base

    As you can tell planning would not be my best strength.

    Having just done the marathon, i feel that i still have the endurance in my legs, so i believe that doing a 13 mile long run at the weekend should not put to much strain on me.

    I dont have a lot of time during the week, so hence the low milage. this is where i will do interval & tempo sessions.


  • #18
    dna_leri
    Registered Users Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    ecoli wrote: »
    Be very careful here this could end up as a recipe for disaster in terms of injury. You are effectively planning on running close to half your mileage per week in one run and than run you plan on doing a full race distance at race pace?

    You need to keep the long run proportionate to your weekly mileage so would have to a)increase mileage or b)reduce long run.

    In terms of pace as well your body should recieve enough stimulus from an easy long run for endurance purposes given your low mileage base

    I agree it's not ideal but having a long run at 43% of weekly mileage is not necessarily a recipe for disaster if you build up the long run steadily. Think about it, why would you be more likely to get injured from running 30 miles over three days (eg 13, 9, 8) instead of 45 miles over 6 days (eg 13,5,9,5,8,5) ?

    If you decide to only run 3 days a week then 13, 9, 8 is as good as any.
    The pace advise I agree with.


  • #19
    Ceepo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,509 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    DogSlySmile wrote: »

    I followed Fitzgeralds 'Brain Training' 10k plan over the summer, and the only thing I felt that was wrong with it (looking back) was the lack of a long run. The longest run in this plan was 14 miles. While following the plan I always felt like I ran out of steam 7-8k into a 10k race, and I attribute that to the lack of endurance as my long run wasnt long enough. It was a good plan overall though, got my PB down from 38:XX to 36:30. But going forward I'll try to add 16 - 20 mile LSR into a 10k plan.

    14 ml should be enough for a long run, and and would suggest that you don't need to be doing anywhere close to 20ml if your doing a 10k race. Its more likely that speed endurance was a factor or maybe pacing.
    It's common enough to struggle at some point in 10k, and race. Looking at your km splits would give some indication.
    Between 7/8 k, and 4/5 ml always a crunch time mentally as well as physically for most.
    Well done on the BP. ;-)


  • #20
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    So I have another question:

    Should your long run in a 10k training cycle be more 10k specific?

    Should you include other things during your long run that could make it more effective as opposed to just time on your feet such as strides or pick ups, short tempo sections, done over a hilly route etc?


  • #21
    ger664
    Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭ger664


    pconn062 wrote: »
    So I have another question:

    Should your long run in a 10k training cycle be more 10k specific?

    Should you include other things during your long run that could make it more effective as opposed to just time on your feet such as strides or pick ups, short tempo sections, done over a hilly route etc?

    No. Long run is for Aerobic Conditioning, which is very important for any middle/long distance runner. It should be done at an Easy Pace (~75% of HRMAX).
    As regards length I usually do 90 to 120 minutes of a run. For me that's 10 to 14 miles. When I am in Base Phase I may stretch it out to 16 Miles. In race prep phase I tend to keep them around the 90 Minute Mark.


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  • #22
    DogSlySmile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭DogSlySmile


    Ceepo wrote: »
    14 ml should be enough for a long run, and and would suggest that you don't need to be doing anywhere close to 20ml if your doing a 10k race. Its more likely that speed endurance was a factor or maybe pacing.
    It's common enough to struggle at some point in 10k, and race. Looking at your km splits would give some indication.
    Between 7/8 k, and 4/5 ml always a crunch time mentally as well as physically for most.
    Well done on the BP. ;-)
    I agree that 14m is enough for training for a 10k. But when I attempt another 10k plan my goal time will be 34:5X. So I'll stretch out my long run to be 16-20m based on my personal experience of what it took to run 36:30 and by taking the advice of some of the boardsies who have ran times that I hope to run :)


  • #23
    Ceepo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,509 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    DogSlySmile wrote: »
    I agree that 14m is enough for training for a 10k. But when I attempt another 10k plan my goal time will be 34:5X. So I'll stretch out my long run to be 16-20m based on my personal experience of what it took to run 36:30 and by taking the advice of some of the boardsies who have ran times that i hope to run :)

    I could be a smart arse and say take advice from another boardie who has ran a time you would like to run, but I won't. Lol
    Instead I will say that every athlete is different and what works for one might not work for another.
    Every athlete and coach for that matter will have there own ideas, and should be based on the type of athlete you are. Some people trive on milage and some on speed work.
    It's great that you also want to get your times down, but I would think consistent structured training is the key to that, oh and of course time.
    Yes your long run is important, but personally I would feel you don't need to do 20mls. However that said if you believe it will go for it

    I should put in a disclaimer that this is my own view only


  • #24
    Clearlier
    Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    I'm not saying much on this because I don't feel like I know very much about 10k training although I'm contemplating targeting one in the spring so I'm interested to read other people's thoughts and ideas.

    On the long run I would have thought that maxing out at 2 hrs prior to the specific phase would be enough. During the specific phase I might consider dropping it down to 90 mins with a 2hr run maybe once every 3rd week. I'm not entirely sure how I'd do it but in the specific phase I'd spend more of my effort on runs/sessions that were closer to race pace and just try to maintain my aerobic conditioning.


  • #25
    Ceepo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,509 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    To put this another way is there a time that you should aim for LSR, to race 10k?
    My long runs were kinda between 90 and 100 mins, and 105 the odd occasion, this was long enough for me.
    Would it be determined by your target time.
    Just a taught


  • #26
    Clearlier
    Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    Ceepo wrote: »
    To put this another way is there a time that you should aim for LSR, to race 10k?
    My long runs were kinda between 90 and 100 mins, and 105 the odd occasion, this was long enough for me.
    Would it be determined by your target time.
    Just a taught

    more the amount of time that you spend training than your target time I would think. Daniels says 2hrs or 25% of your weekly volume whichever is less.


  • #27
    EMPM
    Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭EMPM


    Ceepo wrote: »
    To put this another way is there a time that you should aim for LSR, to race 10k?
    My long runs were kinda between 90 and 100 mins, and 105 the odd occasion, this was long enough for me.
    Would it be determined by your target time.
    Just a taught

    This was my thinking. Targeting 10k races 10m-13m i would have thought should be long enough.


  • #28
    EMPM
    Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭EMPM


    What pace should you run your interval sessions and how long should they be?

    Yesterday i did 5 x 800 @ 3:30 km ph pace with a very slow 500m jog inbetween. This is quicker than my 5k pb pace, which is about 3:50. Opinions welcome!!


  • #29
    DogSlySmile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭DogSlySmile


    Ceepo wrote: »
    To put this another way is there a time that you should aim for LSR, to race 10k?
    My long runs were kinda between 90 and 100 mins, and 105 the odd occasion, this was long enough for me.
    Would it be determined by your target time.
    Just a taught
    Clearlier wrote: »
    more the amount of time that you spend training than your target time I would think. Daniels says 2hrs or 25% of your weekly volume whichever is less.

    Sorry to drag the topic back a bit! I use the McMillan calculator to get paces for my runs. Some might say that 16-20 miles is too long for a long run, but if you take Daniels advice of a 2hr long run and use the training paces set out by McMillan (according to your current 10k time - for me 36:30) you would run between 15 and 17.5miles in 2hrs depending on the pace of your run. McMillan recommends long run pace for me of between 6:50 - 7:59 minutes/mile. OK, moving on! :p


  • #30
    Clearlier
    Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    EMPM wrote: »
    What pace should you run your interval sessions and how long should they be?

    Yesterday i did 5 x 800 @ 3:30 km ph pace with a very slow 500m jog inbetween. This is quicker than my 5k pb pace, which is about 3:50. Opinions welcome!!

    Assuming that your 5k pb pace is still relevant what were you hoping to get out of the session? I can see the point of a faster than race pace session (although only a little bit faster) to make your target pace feel comfortable but otherwise I don't understand why you would do it.

    N.B. I know very little about interval training. Most of what I have read on the subject suggests race pace intervals or short fast ones for running economy. I think that others have made fairly detailed studies of it though.
    DogSlySmile wrote: »
    Sorry to drag the topic back a bit! I use the McMillan calculator to get paces for my runs. Some might say that 16-20 miles is too long for a long run, but if you take Daniels advice of a 2hr long run and use the training paces set out by McMillan (according to your current 10k time - for me 36:30) you would run between 15 and 17.5miles in 2hrs depending on the pace of your run. McMillan recommends long run pace for me of between 6:50 - 7:59 minutes/mile. OK, moving on! :p

    Daniels specifically doesn't mention a particular distance because it does change depending upon how much training you're doing. That's why he says 2 hrs or 25% of weekly mileage whichever is less. Even if your PB is 32mins there's no point in going out and doing a 2hr long run if the furthest you've ever run is 10 miles in an hour and you average 25mpw. Training is all about building from where you are now not following the schedule that somebody else followed. For me that's one of the strengths of Daniels books. He tries to write for runners at all levels.


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  • #31
    Ceepo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,509 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    DogSlySmile wrote: »



    Sorry to drag the topic back a bit! I use the McMillan calculator to get paces for my runs. Some might say that 16-20 miles is too long for a long run, but if you take Daniels advice of a 2hr long run and use the training paces set out by McMillan (according to your current 10k time - for me 36:30) you would run between 15 and 17.5miles in 2hrs depending on the pace of your run. McMillan recommends long run pace for me of between 6:50 - 7:59 minutes/mile. OK, moving on! :p

    Of course you are right using the above.
    Just a few things and then I will leave it at that. I
    I still stand by, you don't need to do 20mls runs, and based on the your 36 min 10k, 6.50 pace is to fast for a SLOW run, and so take the next step, and even say you ran them at 7 min still to fast you would be running for 2.20, do you think you need to run for that long to race 10k?.
    I would suggest closer to the 7.30/8 min pace is fast enough for your long run. Give that, you would be running for over 2.5hrs. There is also a big difference to running 17.5 ml and 15ml in 2hrs.
    What you need to keep in mind is the time it takes to recover from these runs, the recovery time that impinges on session time, and the fresher you are doing your session the better.
    I am not saying it won't work or it is wrong, but what I am saying is you don't need to run for that long.
    If you want to get down to 34.5x I would look at the type of other sessions you do and what way you are doing them and leave the long run to 1.5 hrs 1.45 hrs max, remember that running slow for longer does not make you run faster for shorter.
    On that note best if luck on getting the new pb


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