Boardsies 10k plan by debate

ecoli

A follow on from the successful marathon version I thought we could aim to do something similar for a shorter distance and given there is considerable discussion of 10ks at the moment post Marathon I thought might be a good distance to choose.

(for anyone who missed the last thread its here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72532515)

This discussion will be based with say a 35 min -sub 40 min target in mind

Each question will be taken one at a time and every answer must be backed up with reasoning (there are no right or wrong answers as long as you back up your statements)

(Hopefully this will take off as well as the previous one)

Will start with same question;

How long should a 10k specific plan be?

pconn062

Great idea ecoli.

How long should a 10k specific plan be?

I think it really depends what you want to get out of the race. The McMillan plan is over 8 weeks and this is probably the most common amount of time people set aside for a 10k specific plan. I know a lot of people also run their best 10k times off the back of marathon training. I think if a 10k is your goal race for the year then it should be no different than training for a marathon with a 18-24 week plan. Something like the Daniels 5-15k plan which I know a few lads here have had great success with.
Personally speaking my target race for the first half of next year is the K club 10k and I will following the Daniels plan, I'm currently (kind of) doing phase 1, the base phase so slowly increasing mileage towards 50-60 miles a week with the odd session thrown in (Daniels base phase has no quality work, just all easy running).

EMPM

Great idea as i am targeting a sub 40min 10k next year. I have actually never ran a 10k, have s 5k pb of 19:12, half 1:30 and marathon 3:23, so i think i can do it, but just not sure what training to do. I was thinking of keeping up a long run at the weekend 10m - 13m and doing intervals and tempo runs during the week, so any specific advice would be great.

Cheers

KielyUnusual

What race pace session do you think would be the best indicator that you're on target, and when should you do this? If it's an interval session, would you do a walking or jogging recovery and for how long?

TRR

ecoli wrote: »

How long should a 10k specific plan be?

My next one will be 10-12 weeks. Targeting 10k in the middle of April. A little longer than some may prescribe but there will be a couple of easy weeks in there as I will have 2 build up races and will taper specifically for these. One definitely will be a 5k the other will be a 5 or 10k. The 12 week program assumes I have been ticking over nicely in the preceeding weeks obviously and not coming from my usual post Christmas fat bastard starting point.

EMPM wrote: »

Great idea as i am targeting a sub 40min 10k next year. I have actually never ran a 10k, have s 5k pb of 19:12, half 1:30 and marathon 3:23, so i think i can do it, but just not sure what training to do. I was thinking of keeping up a long run at the weekend 10m - 13m and doing intervals and tempo runs during the week, so any specific advice would be great.

Cheers

Will definitely be keeping up a long run of some sort. Absolute minimum of 12 miles but anything up to 16 miles. Remaining 2 key sessions will be tempo or fartlek (tempo preferably) and mile intervals. Will change slightly week to week but that's the general basis

TRR

Before I go any further, these are just my thoughts. I'm sure some will disagree and until recently I've never ran a half decent 10k so you may want to take what I say with a pinch of salt

KielyUnusual wrote: »

What race pace session do you think would be the best indicator that you're on target, and when should you do this? If it's an interval session, would you do a walking or jogging recovery and for how long?

I do a 3 * 2 mile interval session. Pace is close to 10k pace although can be hard to replicate in training I do generally get close. I take 2.5-3 minute recovery. Do it every second week with mile repeats on alternative weeks. Get through 3 sessions of that and you're ready to rock. I see McMillian recommends this session but he only prescribes it once I think. I do it a few times and week to week bring the pace down so I'm running at my current 10k pace, not goal 10k pace. Obviously the last time you do it one should try to run goal pace.

nobody told me

Thinking of following the daniels 5k-15k plan, only ran one 10k 38:29. I would hope to get to high 36s. Should my training paces be at the 36 range? Thanks.

pconn062

nobody told me wrote: »

Thinking of following the daniels 5k-15k plan, only ran one 10k 38:29. I would hope to get to high 36s. Should my training paces be at the 36 range? Thanks.

Generally the advice would be to train at race pace to simulate race discomfort but rather than launching straight into sessions at 36 pace you might be better racing a 5k and seeing where you are fitness wise, this would give you a good indication of your current 10k pace and you could work off of that.

seanynova

1) Run a lot! Volume done just below your personal limit, week after week is gold!

2) Vary your training intensity (some easy paced, some moderate, and some faster). A mix of about 75% easy, 15-20% moderate, and about 5-10% faster is about right for the vast majority of people running 5k races or longer.

3) Run hills in training 2 times per week. Specific leg strength is vital to running success. The stronger your legs are the more training you can do without breaking down. The more training you can do without breaking down the better your race performances will be, on average.

4) Don't overthink. Set up a simple plan and stick to it. Stop worrying about all the x and y parts of training and just execute a well designed weekly schedule over and over and over.

A weekly schedule that includes 1 CV interval session (5km pace per km + 10 secs), 1 tempo over hills or tempo plus hills, and a long run or a 2 runs of about 45-60 minutes with some of it moderate, plus 2 strider sesisons per week (5-10 x 100m at 5k, gradually increasing the speed as you legs warm up, and never straining), plus plenty of easy distance work is going to place 95% of the runners at 95% of their peak fitness - or better.

good idea for a thread, its a key distance for all, those looking to expand their diatance or improove there marathon times.

Above is an extract from one of 'Tergats' posts a few years ago....some good advice in there!

ecoli

Finally getting around to answer this myself:


How long should a 10k specific plan be?:

I think if 10 is your target race then you need to have a minimum of about 16 weeks training broken down into two phases:

Phase 1

This would be focused on general all round running fitness. The aim here is to build strength but also try to keep in touch with a wide range of paces in order to attain maximum fitness benefits. Here we would include mile paced reps (economy), hills reps (leg strength and economy), 3k-5k paced reps (Vo2), Tempos and MP runs (AnT and AeT development) and long runs for endurance.
The aim of this phase is to make your body capable of running your goal 10k pace from here you can work on making it feel more comfortable through sustained efforts.
While ideally this part of an overall 10k plan you can perhaps look at this stage as independent and targetting a shorter race. This sort of training should yield benefits for many at shorter distances so could be viewed as good 5k training despite the lack of specificity

Phase 2

This phase is all about focusing your pace around 10k and aiming to get your body as comfortable as possible at running at these speeds. The preceeding phase should have the body prepared to be able to handle running at these paces. Rather than aim on improving your pace as the weeks progress target pace is set out from the 1st session. Here the aim is similar to Cavona in that we are aiming to increase distance rather than pace.

The week is based around 1 key session @ 10k pace with the volume aiming to come as close to race time duration as possible (within the constraints of weekly mile) if mileage is sufficient the aim would be to try have volume of reps as close to 10k as possible). Each week the rep durations increase.

An example of an 8 week progression for an athlete of say 70-80 mpw might look something like this

24x400 @ 10k pace w/45 sec
12x800m @ 10k w/90 sec
10x1000m w/2 min rec
6x1 mile w/ 2 min rec
5x2k @ 10k with 3 min rec
3x3k @ 10k with 4 min rec
3x2 mile w / 4 min rec


For those who aim to put in down weeks every 4-5 weeks this can still be attained by ammending he rest of the week (perhaps even cut out second session instead of just reducing volume) but we want to keep the legs in touch with race pace throughout the phase.

The second session in a week should be based around paces which supplement 10k training (so 5k and HM predominantly). The aim is to keep quality training based slightly above and below race pace. Though there should be one or two sessions at quicker/slower (mile pace or MP) just to enhance fitness by adding the odd different stimulus the rest are based around the above 3 paces for the most part.

Half way through the plan also it is not a bad idea to change a Tempo run to a race simulation running approx half the distance at race pace (a 5k race here would be perfect and run at 10k pace).


If someone is coming off a low base however I would advise a "base phase" in order to have the fitness to be able to take on the general phase. This phase would be 4-6 weeks with 2 weeks of easy running followed b 2-4 weeks of 1 x Steady run and 1-2 x 6* 80 m strides. This phase gives people a chance to build their mileage to a sufficient level



The outline I have put across seems to be very similar to the ones put across earlier (tRR s 12 week coming off decent fitness) and the general template of 10k specific session/Tempo or 5k reps and Long Run is one which generally seems to be accepted

ecoli

KielyUnusual wrote: »

What race pace session do you think would be the best indicator that you're on target, and when should you do this? If it's an interval session, would you do a walking or jogging recovery and for how long?

Again this would go back to the overall plan of getting comfortable running at target race pace. If you progress through the sessions and are consistently unable to hit target times (not just a bad once off as can happen to anyone) then obviously you are going to struggle race day. The aim is to be both physically and mentally prepared for the pace come race day

ecoli

Ok I will aim to add a question every now and then just to keep the momentum going. If people however have their own questions to spark up the debate by all means go ahead (means less work for me:D).

The only thing is give the previous question a bit of time to allow people to comment on to keep some coherency to the thread rather than people tooing and frowing from question to question.

Next questions

Mileage? How much
Long run? How important and how long?

TRR

ecoli wrote: »

Mileage? How much
Long run? How important and how long?

Quick answers.

Mileage 80-90% of typical marathon mileage (if you're coming from that background).

Long run: very very important, pissing into the wind if you're doing intervals and no long run. I'd say typically 14 miles

DogSlySmile

ecoli wrote: »

Long run? How important and how long?

I followed Fitzgeralds 'Brain Training' 10k plan over the summer, and the only thing I felt that was wrong with it (looking back) was the lack of a long run. The longest run in this plan was 14 miles. While following the plan I always felt like I ran out of steam 7-8k into a 10k race, and I attribute that to the lack of endurance as my long run wasnt long enough. It was a good plan overall though, got my PB down from 38:XX to 36:30. But going forward I'll try to add 16 - 20 mile LSR into a 10k plan.

EMPM

ecoli wrote: »

Mileage? How much
Long run? How important and how long?

plan to do about 30 miles p/w

long run will be 10 - 13 miles, but not to sure at what pace, maybe half marathon pace?. I think it is very important to get the long run in to keep endurance levels up.

ecoli

EMPM wrote: »

plan to do about 30 miles p/w

long run will be 10 - 13 miles, but not to sure at what pace, maybe half marathon pace?. I think it is very important to get the long run in to keep endurance levels up.

Be very careful here this could end up as a recipe for disaster in terms of injury. You are effectively planning on running close to half your mileage per week in one run and than run you plan on doing a full race distance at race pace?

You need to keep the long run proportionate to your weekly mileage so would have to a)increase mileage or b)reduce long run.

In terms of pace as well your body should recieve enough stimulus from an easy long run for endurance purposes given your low mileage base

EMPM

ecoli wrote: »

Be very careful here this could end up as a recipe for disaster in terms of injury. You are effectively planning on running close to half your mileage per week in one run and than run you plan on doing a full race distance at race pace?

You need to keep the long run proportionate to your weekly mileage so would have to a)increase mileage or b)reduce long run.

In terms of pace as well your body should recieve enough stimulus from an easy long run for endurance purposes given your low mileage base

As you can tell planning would not be my best strength.

Having just done the marathon, i feel that i still have the endurance in my legs, so i believe that doing a 13 mile long run at the weekend should not put to much strain on me.

I dont have a lot of time during the week, so hence the low milage. this is where i will do interval & tempo sessions.

dna_leri

ecoli wrote: »

Be very careful here this could end up as a recipe for disaster in terms of injury. You are effectively planning on running close to half your mileage per week in one run and than run you plan on doing a full race distance at race pace?

You need to keep the long run proportionate to your weekly mileage so would have to a)increase mileage or b)reduce long run.

In terms of pace as well your body should recieve enough stimulus from an easy long run for endurance purposes given your low mileage base

I agree it's not ideal but having a long run at 43% of weekly mileage is not necessarily a recipe for disaster if you build up the long run steadily. Think about it, why would you be more likely to get injured from running 30 miles over three days (eg 13, 9, 8) instead of 45 miles over 6 days (eg 13,5,9,5,8,5) ?

If you decide to only run 3 days a week then 13, 9, 8 is as good as any.
The pace advise I agree with.

Ceepo

DogSlySmile wrote: »

I followed Fitzgeralds 'Brain Training' 10k plan over the summer, and the only thing I felt that was wrong with it (looking back) was the lack of a long run. The longest run in this plan was 14 miles. While following the plan I always felt like I ran out of steam 7-8k into a 10k race, and I attribute that to the lack of endurance as my long run wasnt long enough. It was a good plan overall though, got my PB down from 38:XX to 36:30. But going forward I'll try to add 16 - 20 mile LSR into a 10k plan.

14 ml should be enough for a long run, and and would suggest that you don't need to be doing anywhere close to 20ml if your doing a 10k race. Its more likely that speed endurance was a factor or maybe pacing.
It's common enough to struggle at some point in 10k, and race. Looking at your km splits would give some indication.
Between 7/8 k, and 4/5 ml always a crunch time mentally as well as physically for most.
Well done on the BP. ;-)

pconn062

So I have another question:

Should your long run in a 10k training cycle be more 10k specific?

Should you include other things during your long run that could make it more effective as opposed to just time on your feet such as strides or pick ups, short tempo sections, done over a hilly route etc?

ger664

pconn062 wrote: »

So I have another question:

Should your long run in a 10k training cycle be more 10k specific?

Should you include other things during your long run that could make it more effective as opposed to just time on your feet such as strides or pick ups, short tempo sections, done over a hilly route etc?

No. Long run is for Aerobic Conditioning, which is very important for any middle/long distance runner. It should be done at an Easy Pace (~75% of HRMAX).
As regards length I usually do 90 to 120 minutes of a run. For me that's 10 to 14 miles. When I am in Base Phase I may stretch it out to 16 Miles. In race prep phase I tend to keep them around the 90 Minute Mark.

DogSlySmile

Ceepo wrote: »

14 ml should be enough for a long run, and and would suggest that you don't need to be doing anywhere close to 20ml if your doing a 10k race. Its more likely that speed endurance was a factor or maybe pacing.
It's common enough to struggle at some point in 10k, and race. Looking at your km splits would give some indication.
Between 7/8 k, and 4/5 ml always a crunch time mentally as well as physically for most.
Well done on the BP. ;-)

I agree that 14m is enough for training for a 10k. But when I attempt another 10k plan my goal time will be 34:5X. So I'll stretch out my long run to be 16-20m based on my personal experience of what it took to run 36:30 and by taking the advice of some of the boardsies who have ran times that I hope to run

Ceepo

DogSlySmile wrote: »

I agree that 14m is enough for training for a 10k. But when I attempt another 10k plan my goal time will be 34:5X. So I'll stretch out my long run to be 16-20m based on my personal experience of what it took to run 36:30 and by taking the advice of some of the boardsies who have ran times that i hope to run

I could be a smart arse and say take advice from another boardie who has ran a time you would like to run, but I won't. Lol
Instead I will say that every athlete is different and what works for one might not work for another.
Every athlete and coach for that matter will have there own ideas, and should be based on the type of athlete you are. Some people trive on milage and some on speed work.
It's great that you also want to get your times down, but I would think consistent structured training is the key to that, oh and of course time.
Yes your long run is important, but personally I would feel you don't need to do 20mls. However that said if you believe it will go for it

I should put in a disclaimer that this is my own view only

Clearlier

I'm not saying much on this because I don't feel like I know very much about 10k training although I'm contemplating targeting one in the spring so I'm interested to read other people's thoughts and ideas.

On the long run I would have thought that maxing out at 2 hrs prior to the specific phase would be enough. During the specific phase I might consider dropping it down to 90 mins with a 2hr run maybe once every 3rd week. I'm not entirely sure how I'd do it but in the specific phase I'd spend more of my effort on runs/sessions that were closer to race pace and just try to maintain my aerobic conditioning.

Ceepo

To put this another way is there a time that you should aim for LSR, to race 10k?
My long runs were kinda between 90 and 100 mins, and 105 the odd occasion, this was long enough for me.
Would it be determined by your target time.
Just a taught

Clearlier

Ceepo wrote: »

To put this another way is there a time that you should aim for LSR, to race 10k?
My long runs were kinda between 90 and 100 mins, and 105 the odd occasion, this was long enough for me.
Would it be determined by your target time.
Just a taught

more the amount of time that you spend training than your target time I would think. Daniels says 2hrs or 25% of your weekly volume whichever is less.

EMPM

Ceepo wrote: »

To put this another way is there a time that you should aim for LSR, to race 10k?
My long runs were kinda between 90 and 100 mins, and 105 the odd occasion, this was long enough for me.
Would it be determined by your target time.
Just a taught

This was my thinking. Targeting 10k races 10m-13m i would have thought should be long enough.

EMPM

What pace should you run your interval sessions and how long should they be?

Yesterday i did 5 x 800 @ 3:30 km ph pace with a very slow 500m jog inbetween. This is quicker than my 5k pb pace, which is about 3:50. Opinions welcome!!

DogSlySmile

Ceepo wrote: »

To put this another way is there a time that you should aim for LSR, to race 10k?
My long runs were kinda between 90 and 100 mins, and 105 the odd occasion, this was long enough for me.
Would it be determined by your target time.
Just a taught

Clearlier wrote: »

more the amount of time that you spend training than your target time I would think. Daniels says 2hrs or 25% of your weekly volume whichever is less.

Sorry to drag the topic back a bit! I use the McMillan calculator to get paces for my runs. Some might say that 16-20 miles is too long for a long run, but if you take Daniels advice of a 2hr long run and use the training paces set out by McMillan (according to your current 10k time - for me 36:30) you would run between 15 and 17.5miles in 2hrs depending on the pace of your run. McMillan recommends long run pace for me of between 6:50 - 7:59 minutes/mile. OK, moving on!

Clearlier

EMPM wrote: »

What pace should you run your interval sessions and how long should they be?

Yesterday i did 5 x 800 @ 3:30 km ph pace with a very slow 500m jog inbetween. This is quicker than my 5k pb pace, which is about 3:50. Opinions welcome!!

Assuming that your 5k pb pace is still relevant what were you hoping to get out of the session? I can see the point of a faster than race pace session (although only a little bit faster) to make your target pace feel comfortable but otherwise I don't understand why you would do it.

N.B. I know very little about interval training. Most of what I have read on the subject suggests race pace intervals or short fast ones for running economy. I think that others have made fairly detailed studies of it though.

DogSlySmile wrote: »

Sorry to drag the topic back a bit! I use the McMillan calculator to get paces for my runs. Some might say that 16-20 miles is too long for a long run, but if you take Daniels advice of a 2hr long run and use the training paces set out by McMillan (according to your current 10k time - for me 36:30) you would run between 15 and 17.5miles in 2hrs depending on the pace of your run. McMillan recommends long run pace for me of between 6:50 - 7:59 minutes/mile. OK, moving on!

Daniels specifically doesn't mention a particular distance because it does change depending upon how much training you're doing. That's why he says 2 hrs or 25% of weekly mileage whichever is less. Even if your PB is 32mins there's no point in going out and doing a 2hr long run if the furthest you've ever run is 10 miles in an hour and you average 25mpw. Training is all about building from where you are now not following the schedule that somebody else followed. For me that's one of the strengths of Daniels books. He tries to write for runners at all levels.

Ceepo

DogSlySmile wrote: »

Sorry to drag the topic back a bit! I use the McMillan calculator to get paces for my runs. Some might say that 16-20 miles is too long for a long run, but if you take Daniels advice of a 2hr long run and use the training paces set out by McMillan (according to your current 10k time - for me 36:30) you would run between 15 and 17.5miles in 2hrs depending on the pace of your run. McMillan recommends long run pace for me of between 6:50 - 7:59 minutes/mile. OK, moving on!

Of course you are right using the above.
Just a few things and then I will leave it at that. I
I still stand by, you don't need to do 20mls runs, and based on the your 36 min 10k, 6.50 pace is to fast for a SLOW run, and so take the next step, and even say you ran them at 7 min still to fast you would be running for 2.20, do you think you need to run for that long to race 10k?.
I would suggest closer to the 7.30/8 min pace is fast enough for your long run. Give that, you would be running for over 2.5hrs. There is also a big difference to running 17.5 ml and 15ml in 2hrs.
What you need to keep in mind is the time it takes to recover from these runs, the recovery time that impinges on session time, and the fresher you are doing your session the better.
I am not saying it won't work or it is wrong, but what I am saying is you don't need to run for that long.
If you want to get down to 34.5x I would look at the type of other sessions you do and what way you are doing them and leave the long run to 1.5 hrs 1.45 hrs max, remember that running slow for longer does not make you run faster for shorter.
On that note best if luck on getting the new pb

EMPM

Clearlier wrote: »

Assuming that your 5k pb pace is still relevant what were you hoping to get out of the session? I can see the point of a faster than race pace session (although only a little bit faster) to make your target pace feel comfortable but otherwise I don't understand why you would do it.

N.B. I know very little about interval training. Most of what I have read on the subject suggests race pace intervals or short fast ones for running economy. I think that others have made fairly detailed studies of it though.

My 5k pb was from during July, but i do feel that i have gotten faster since then.

What am i hoping to get out of the session?
My idea behing it (right or wrong) is that if i can train my body to run at a pace greater that race pace for these intervals then come race day i should find a slower race pace more comfortable. I was not struggling to hold 3:30 pace and always felf in control.

Now i dont know if this is the correct strategy to be using and i am certainly open to all suggestions.

Thanks for all the input.

ecoli

Finally getting a chance to catch up here

ecoli wrote: »

Mileage? How much
Long run? How important and how long?

In terms of mileage I think tRR makes a very good point given the aerobic nature of the event you can't shy away from Mileage. This is why so many people PB at the distance coming off marathon training. I would say you should be going no lower than 80 % of your usual marathon mileage. Where the change is usually seen is your quality days add up to less mileage due to the nature of the sessions and the specific physiological benefits being targetted

I think the Long run is crucial for the points I have made before. There seems to be alot of debate over the duration and I think a very important point was made regarding time on feet over number of miles. If you look logically at it why would someone who runs say 45 min running having the body work at the effort level required to do a 20 miler for 3 hours compared to someone who can do it in two. The body doesnt count miles so basing these on time is a very good move. Personal my preference would be 1hr 45 - 2 hours for the long run to get the right stimulus without compromising training through the need for recovery

dna_leri wrote: »

I agree it's not ideal but having a long run at 43% of weekly mileage is not necessarily a recipe for disaster if you build up the long run steadily. Think about it, why would you be more likely to get injured from running 30 miles over three days (eg 13, 9, 8) instead of 45 miles over 6 days (eg 13,5,9,5,8,5) ?

If you decide to only run 3 days a week then 13, 9, 8 is as good as any.
The pace advise I agree with.

For an aerobic standpoint I would agree however them 5 milers play an important part in blood circulation. A 3 day high intensity plan can cause decreased elasticity within the muscles and adhesion of muscle fibres causing tightness and increase injury risk. The increase in blood pressure and circulation can aid metabolic waste products from the muscles as well as break down adhesions. This is along the lines of "active recovery"

pconn062 wrote: »

So I have another question:

Should your long run in a 10k training cycle be more 10k specific?

Should you include other things during your long run that could make it more effective as opposed to just time on your feet such as strides or pick ups, short tempo sections, done over a hilly route etc?

Personally I think if you are adhering to a 2 session week then the long run at easy pace fits perfectly for the specific target of endurance. Most of us dont have the years of an aerobic base built up that mean we dont get the stimulus from a simple long run.
No harm in slightly shorter steady long runs slower than MP or eas runs on hillier routes but you need to weigh these up with the need for recovery for other weekly sessions

EMPM wrote: »

What pace should you run your interval sessions and how long should they be?

Yesterday i did 5 x 800 @ 3:30 km ph pace with a very slow 500m jog inbetween. This is quicker than my 5k pb pace, which is about 3:50. Opinions welcome!!

You need to look at the aims of a session. This sort of session is designed to work on Vo2 max really and aim should be between 3k and 5k pace. By running too fast you are not getting the targetted benefit. Speeds, distance and recovery should be adhered to if you are following a set plan (can run slightly faster based on change of fitness etc but 20 sec per k is completely changing dynamics of the session

dna_leri

EMPM wrote: »

What pace should you run your interval sessions and how long should they be?

Yesterday i did 5 x 800 @ 3:30 km ph pace with a very slow 500m jog inbetween. This is quicker than my 5k pb pace, which is about 3:50. Opinions welcome!!

I don't think you are far off what McMillan would recommend - see http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/calculator

If your 5K is 19:10, he would have have a "speedster" do 800m "speed workouts" at 2:47 to 2:54, which I think is where you are at. Recoveries for these should be roughly similar to the run duration i.e about 2:50.

If you are doing this without difficulty, then try reducing the recovery time and increasing the volume rather than doing them faster.

Definitely more important than any one perfect session is fitting it into a well-rounded plan (as I think others have said).

Ceepo

EMPM wrote: »

My 5k pb was from during July, but i do feel that i have gotten faster since then.

What am i hoping to get out of the session?
My idea behing it (right or wrong) is that if i can train my body to run at a pace greater that race pace for these intervals then come race day i should find a slower race pace more comfortable. I was not struggling to hold 3:30 pace and always felf in control.

Now i dont know if this is the correct strategy to be using and i am certainly open to all suggestions.

Thanks for all the input.

There is nothing wrong in principle, with the way you are thinking,
What I would say is that any 1 session can only be seen as that, 1 session,
Without knowing the rest of your weekly/monthly sessions, and and what your aim is it is hard to say anything else about it.
3.30 pace is faster than your race pace so should help you to run faster. However you are taking a long recovery, which helps you maintain that pace,
How hard would it be if you took 75 sec recovery?.
It would be more of a taper session where you are trying to maintain speed without demanding to much from the body

EMPM

ecoli wrote: »

You need to look at the aims of a session. This sort of session is designed to work on Vo2 max really and aim should be between 3k and 5k pace. By running too fast you are not getting the targetted benefit. Speeds, distance and recovery should be adhered to if you are following a set plan (can run slightly faster based on change of fitness etc but 20 sec per k is completely changing dynamics of the session

I suppose what im trying to do is plan the rught interval session for me. I do believe that i have gotten faster than 3:50 pace and felt that 3:30 was probably a good pace to challange me.

I don't think you are far off what McMillan would recommend - see http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/calculator

If your 5K is 19:10, he would have have a "speedster" do 800m "speed workouts" at 2:47 to 2:54, which I think is where you are at. Recoveries for these should be roughly similar to the run duration i.e about 2:50.

If you are doing this without difficulty, then try reducing the recovery time and increasing the volume rather than doing them faster.

Definitely more important than any one perfect session is fitting it into a well-rounded plan (as I think others have said).

I dont think i would be able to do many 800's, if any at under 3:00 pace.

I think it is good advice to reduce recovery time and increase volume, ill try that at next weeks session, thanks.

Ceepo

dna_leri wrote: »

Recoveries for these should be roughly similar to the run duration i.e about 2:50.

.

Just wondering why the recovery should be the same as the effort.?

EMPM

Ceepo wrote: »

There is nothing wrong in principle, with the way you are thinking,
What I would say is that any 1 session can only be seen as that, 1 session,
Without knowing the rest of your weekly/monthly sessions, and and what your aim is it is hard to say anything else about it.
3.30 pace is faster than your race pace so should help you to run faster. However you are taking a long recovery, which helps you maintain that pace,
How hard would it be if you took 75 sec recovery?.
It would be more of a taper session where you are trying to maintain speed without demanding to much from the body

Changed my interval sessions today. Did 10 X 400m @ 3:30 pace with 150m jog, it was much tougher than the 5 X800m with 500m jog, which i had been doing, i certainly had to put much more effort in.

I was thinking of targeting the Enniscorthy 10k in Feb. What do you feel are the weekly key sessions for someone who has a lot of time constraints. ie. Long runs, hills, intervals, tempo etc.

Thanks
EMPM

Ceepo

EMPM wrote: »

Changed my interval sessions today. Did 10 X 400m @ 3:30 pace with 150m jog, it was much tougher than the 5 X800m with 500m jog, which i had been doing, i certainly had to put much more effort in.

I was thinking of targeting the Enniscorthy 10k in Feb. What do you feel are the weekly key sessions for someone who has a lot of time constraints. ie. Long runs, hills, intervals, tempo etc.

Thanks
EMPM

Hi there

As a suggestion
MON, easy recovery run 45 /50 min approx
Tue, interval like 400's x 12
Wed 70 min easy run
Thurs or Friday 2nd session like 3/4 x ml 3 min rec the other day would be a rest day
Sat could be a 50 min run with strides/pick ups
Sun long run approx 90 min.
Any just to throw another 1 into this if I was stuck for time I might run 4ml 1st as w/u 2ml hard 1ml c/d

Any of these can be made longer if you wanted but not all at the same time.

It was suggested that you need to run long runs longer.

It was also pointed out that you have to do 10k in intervals ie, 6x1 ml, and 3 x 2k.

This I think for me would depend on what standard of a runner you are, I don't see the need for someone running 36 min and up to do much more than this
I would always go with bang for buck and if I didn't have to run for 2hr I wouldn't, and this has to be see in the context I used to only race up to 10k.

EMPM

Ceepo wrote: »

Hi there

As a suggestion
MON, easy recovery run 45 /50 min approx
Tue, interval like 400's x 12
Wed 70 min easy run
Thurs or Friday 2nd session like 3/4 x ml 3 min rec the other day would be a rest day
Sat could be a 50 min run with strides/pick ups
Sun long run approx 90 min.
Any just to throw another 1 into this if I was stuck for time I might run 4ml 1st as w/u 2ml hard 1ml c/d

Any of these can be made longer if you wanted but not all at the same time.

It was suggested that you need to run long runs longer.

It was also pointed out that you have to do 10k in intervals ie, 6x1 ml, and 3 x 2k.

This I think for me would depend on what standard of a runner you are, I don't see the need for someone running 36 min and up to do much more than this
I would always go with bang for buck and if I didn't have to run for 2hr I wouldn't, and this has to be see in the context I used to only race up to 10k.

Thanks Ceepo

A lot of that makes sense. All of my running during the week is at lunch time so i have 45mins to make a good session, im very consious of trying to make every session count. I will certainly up my long run on Sunday to 90mins, do i do this at the same pace as my marathon long run or do i go for half marathon pace.

Also what pace should i do the 6X1ml intervals, should these be at planned 10k pace.

To give you an idea of my standard, i am 38, pb's are, marathon 3:23, half 1:30, 5m 32min, 5k 19:17. I have never done a 10k. My training has never really had any structure up until the dublin marathon this year, so i think i can improve on all these times with a bit of structure.

Thanks for all your input, its really helpful.

EMPM

Ceepo

EMPM wrote: »

Thanks Ceepo

A lot of that makes sense. All of my running during the week is at lunch time so i have 45mins to make a good session, im very consious of trying to make every session count. I will certainly up my long run on Sunday to 90mins, do i do this at the same pace as my marathon long run or do i go for half marathon pace.

Also what pace should i do the 6X1ml intervals, should these be at planned 10k pace.

To give you an idea of my standard, i am 38, pb's are, marathon 3:23, half 1:30, 5m 32min, 5k 19:17. I have never done a 10k. My training has never really had any structure up until the dublin marathon this year, so i think i can improve on all these times with a bit of structure.

Thanks for all your input, its really helpful.

EMPM

Thanks Sorry slight confusion

When I said it was recommended to do 6x1 ml, I should have said that I didn't agree I think 3/4 is enough
As you are ball park running 6mm, 4x 1ml @ 6mm with 3 min rec will be a hard enough session.
If you are finding that thus is not enough shorting the recover will make it feel harder
Long run should be done around 8mm ( most people are now laughing) but no faster that 7.30. It's about time on your feet
4's @ 90sec with 45 sec rec (but no faster than 85)
Start with 12 and you can go up to 20 when your able.

Of course all of this looks simplistic, but running should be. If you want to complicated things do sessions like 400 off 30, 600 of 40, and 800 50, k's off 1min and back down.
Everything helps, and but it only helps if you do it in the right way

jfh

a lot of people on here are following the jack daniel 5-10km program, i'm going to move onto that in a week or so, it's a fairly intense schedule so i'm wondering when would one fit in a hill workout.
would the long run be the ideal choice?
or build it into the rep sessions, that would be hard?
or maybe hills on an easy day, very slowly? not confident about this option.

EMPM

Ceepo wrote: »

Thanks Sorry slight confusion

When I said it was recommended to do 6x1 ml, I should have said that I didn't agree I think 3/4 is enough
As you are ball park running 6mm, 4x 1ml @ 6mm with 3 min rec will be a hard enough session.
If you are finding that thus is not enough shorting the recover will make it feel harder
Long run should be done around 8mm ( most people are now laughing) but no faster that 7.30. It's about time on your feet
4's @ 90sec with 45 sec rec (but no faster than 85)
Start with 12 and you can go up to 20 when your able.

Of course all of this looks simplistic, but running should be. If you want to complicated things do sessions like 400 off 30, 600 of 40, and 800 50, k's off 1min and back down.
Everything helps, and but it only helps if you do it in the right way

Thanks that sounds good, agree, im all for keeping it simple, no need to complicate things.

Ceepo

jfh wrote: »

a lot of people on here are following the jack daniel 5-10km program, i'm going to move onto that in a week or so, it's a fairly intense schedule so i'm wondering when would one fit in a hill workout.
would the long run be the ideal choice?
or build it into the rep sessions, that would be hard?
or maybe hills on an easy day, very slowly? not confident about this option.

I have to admit I am not familiar with that program as I never followed any on line or program from a book.
When you say hills, do you mean hill reps?
I would often do a long run on a hilly course but I would not be trying to push the pace on these, as I believe a long run should be about time on your feet. Also where I live is a hilly area so most of my runs would contain hills.
I would say that hill reps should be do in an early phase of training, but there is no harm mixing hills into any phase, but it would depend on what you are trying to achieve from the session.
200's on a 6/8% grade can help with running form. how hard you push them will determine what they take out of you.
The biggest thing that I would advise is to be patient with what ever training you do, and consistent with training at a lower level is better that higher level for a short time and then been injured or sick or both.

jfh

Thanks ceepo, at the moment I'm doing my long run 10 miles on a very hilly route easy. I'm all for the idea of taking it gradual, but want to do a few of the imra races next year also so figure one would need the odd steady hill run of say 8 miles to get used to racing up hills.
Would need to do hill reps too but their not part of the daniels plan.

Ceepo

jfh wrote: »

Thanks ceepo, at the moment I'm doing my long run 10 miles on a very hilly route easy. I'm all for the idea of taking it gradual, but want to do a few of the imra races next year also so figure one would need the odd steady hill run of say 8 miles to get used to racing up hills.
Would need to do hill reps too but their not part of the daniels plan.

I would do the long run's on a easier course, and do specific hill reps as a session or a shorter run on a hill course or mountain.

dna_leri

Ceepo wrote: »

I would do the long run's on a easier course, and do specific hill reps as a session or a shorter run on a hill course or mountain.

Agree with most of what you said Ceepo but disagree on this point. If jfh is planning some hill races, then should definitely do long run over hilly course. Also would recommend

the odd steady hill run of say 8 miles to get used to racing up hills

I did same when I was training for 15K hill run last year. I did the steady hill run instead of session on Thursday, around every other week. Could do instead of Sat run either but at lower intensity.

Ceepo

dna_leri wrote: »

Agree with most of what you said Ceepo but disagree on this point. If jfh is planning some hill races, then should definitely do long run over hilly course. Also would recommend

I did same when I was training for 15K hill run last year. I did the steady hill run instead of session on Thursday, around every other week. Could do instead of Sat run either but at lower intensity.

Dont disagree here. As i dont think there is a right and wrong, Just different ways of doing thing's

When i said do sessions on hills, i should have said, sessions like hill repeat's up hill for 4/5 min duration with jog back recovery. Also down hill of the same nature. By 5/6 reps, Not the same week though. This would be more beneficial than doing a continuous long run on a Mountain or very hilly course
You could do a long run on a course that has hills as well, but suggest that you make your long run a bit longer than 10ml.

Doing things this way you can tick all boxes, long aerobic at the weekend, speed session during the week as well as hill specific session, add in a few easy recovery runs, and Bob's you Uncle;)

jfh

dna_leri wrote: »

Agree with most of what you said Ceepo but disagree on this point. If jfh is planning some hill races, then should definitely do long run over hilly course. Also would recommend

I did same when I was training for 15K hill run last year. I did the steady hill run instead of session on Thursday, around every other week. Could do instead of Sat run either but at lower intensity.

so dna-leri, just to confirm, you dropped a speed session in favour of a steady hill run? and did a long hilly run on the weekend?
2 hill works outs per week?

jfh

Ceepo wrote: »

Dont disagree here. As i dont think there is a right and wrong, Just different ways of doing thing's

When i said do sessions on hills, i should have said, sessions like hill repeat's up hill for 4/5 min duration with jog back recovery. Also down hill of the same nature. By 5/6 reps, Not the same week though. This would be more beneficial than doing a continuous long run on a Mountain or very hilly course
You could do a long run on a course that has hills as well, but suggest that you make your long run a bit longer than 10ml.

Doing things this way you can tick all boxes, long aerobic at the weekend, speed session during the week as well as hill specific session, add in a few easy recovery runs, and Bob's you Uncle;)

yeah i see the general consensus seems to be 13/14 miles for the long run on this post. got that now.
Ceepo you reckon long hill intervals would be more beneficial than the long slow hilly run?

dna_leri

jfh wrote: »

so dna-leri, just to confirm, you dropped a speed session in favour of a steady hill run? and did a long hilly run on the weekend?
2 hill works outs per week?

I did that every second week as preparation for a hilly race (warriors). I found that shorter hill runs made me good at shorter hills but I needed longer hills to get used to running uphill for a few kms.

This was still a tough session, controlled but hard uphill and down (maybe 2 miles each way), usually followed by a couple of fast miles on the flat or strides afterwards.

This is about "specificity" - train as close to race conditions as possible. So if your target is a 10K hill race, train differently than for a flat 10K.

However I think everyone can benefit from doing their long run on an undulating course, while still keeping an easy effort.