Arsenal Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 12/13 MOD POST #232

04-11-2012 01:30AM

Quite frankly i wonder what game Wenger is watching to the rest of the world. If he seriously does not see the problems ahead of him and seriously believes 'We had the better chances', then he deserves to cast aside and in such a case he is no longer good enough for today's game. A man that claims to be open minded and modern, yet like Giovanni Trappatoni he wont change his tactics. I think Arsene needs to be honest for once. If he is happy with today's game and believes Arsenal were duped then he has gone totally and utterly mad. At present he cant seem to motivate the players but in the case of believing what he is telling the media then he should be sacked from Arsenal Fc. His legacy is no longer an excuse.

That said if he left the stupid board would probably go for the cheapest option available like they usually do. I would doubt Pep would even give us a 'Pep' talk for the money the Arsenal board would be offering

farna_boy · 04-11-2012 02:57AM

I know we are all severely depressed after that dismal performance today but the thing to remember is that we can turn this around.

We have the talent among all the players that we have but at the moment we are not getting the best out of any of them. If we can change things up, be it a question of motivating players or bringing in some of the younger/fringe players to create competition for places, I truly believe we can push on from today and at the very least compete for third.

For this to happen though, things do have to change. Until they do though, I can see us being in this rut for some time to come.

wandatowell · 04-11-2012 08:08AM

Its our worst start since 1994/1995.

So we have actually gotten worse since last season.

Good to know.

emergingstar · 04-11-2012 09:43AM

We need to go out and spend big on a Fellani type player in jan, we looked a super team with diaby in there we need a big man in there

If the manager sticks with this formation (which I don't think he should it don't suit our players) our midfield 3 with everyone fit is arteta, diaby, jack,

Santi moves to one wing and the ox on the other, we start with giroud or podiski up top
Plenty of cover from the bench also

But jan is 11 games and 33 points away, we better hope and pray diaby gets and stays fit till then, otherwise were screwed

If Gibbs is not fit for tues I'd rather play with ten than santos and that's not cause he was any worse than anybody else yesterday but swapping jerseys with him at half time after he scored and doing it in front of loyal fans
Unforgivable in my book

bad2dabone · 04-11-2012 09:52AM

Santos should never play for us again, swapping jerseys at half time with a rival is one of the most humiliating and small time things i've ever seen a player do. a total embarrassment. not to mention the fact that he's out of shape and just plain bad.

I'd love a player like fellani. but it wouldn't happen! There'll be more generous paying clubs out there looking for him soon.

12gauge dave · 04-11-2012 09:57AM

wandatowell wrote: »

Its our worst start since 1994/1995.

So we have actually gotten worse since last season.

Good to know.

Worst start in 18 years that just sums it up

Club needs new manager to start a new legacy at the club to be honest guys! wenger has done his party peice he gave us the invincibles the henrys the double in 98 the champions league final but its been getting staler and staler since! i love him as much as the next gunner but we need to start a new era now and slowly build a new style and team and anyway wenger deserves a shot at a big club with big cash to see what hes capable of!
he should move on

04-11-2012 10:29AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/philmcnulty/2012/11/lame_arsenal_a_shadow_of_man_utds_former_foes.html

quite a good article

greendom · 04-11-2012 11:15AM

12gauge dave wrote: »

Worst start in 18 years that just sums it up

Club needs new manager to start a new legacy at the club to be honest guys! wenger has done his party peice he gave us the invincibles the henrys the double in 98 the champions league final but its been getting staler and staler since! i love him as much as the next gunner but we need to start a new era now and slowly build a new style and team and anyway wenger deserves a shot at a big club with big cash to see what hes capable of!
he should move on

Absolutely no point in changing the manager, if the board remains in place. I can't see any manager keeping the club as competitive as AW does, when you bear in mind the money he is given to spend.

Fuzzy_Dunlop · 04-11-2012 11:37AM

Just noticed that Juve's unbeaten run ended last night, at 49 games too.

amiable · 04-11-2012 11:48AM

Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote: »

Just noticed that Juve's unbeaten run ended last night, at 49 games too.

And they got off to such a good start last night too

ugsparky · 04-11-2012 12:39PM

greendom wrote: »

Absolutely no point in changing the manager, if the board remains in place. I can't see any manager keeping the club as competitive as AW does, when you bear in mind the money he is given to spend.

100% correct - if Arsene was manager at any of the big three teams he would be successful ... we are being killed because of the lack of investment by our board of directors ... our manager is a servant of the club ... he is paid and hired by the club. Unfortunately we are now at a place where we are slipping backways ... we will lose players again next summer ... and this in turn results in quality players wanting to move to other clubs instead of Arsenal. We're a cup team now at best.

04-11-2012 12:46PM

ugsparky wrote: »

100% correct - if Arsene was manager at any of the big three teams he would be successful ... we are being killed because of the lack of investment by our board of directors ... our manager is a servant of the club ... he is paid and hired by the club. Unfortunately we are now at a place where we are slipping backways ... we will lose players again next summer ... and this in turn results in quality players wanting to move to other clubs instead of Arsenal. We're a cup team now at best.

The last few years we've been basically matching our league position with our pay levels. Our wage bill isn't low, it's the 4th highest and other than Chelsea being silly last season that's where we would've finished and it looks like that's the absolute best we can home for this season.
On paper we have a very strong team but the way they're going out to play and the effort levels are the problem.

Drexel · 04-11-2012 12:54PM

ugsparky wrote: »

100% correct - if Arsene was manager at any of the big three teams he would be successful ... we are being killed because of the lack of investment by our board of directors ... our manager is a servant of the club ... he is paid and hired by the club. Unfortunately we are now at a place where we are slipping backways ... we will lose players again next summer ... and this in turn results in quality players wanting to move to other clubs instead of Arsenal. We're a cup team now at best.

Can't see us losing too many more players cause we don't have any players the top clubs want. Jack and sanga are prob the only ones. We have no world class (hate that term but you know what I mean) players left. Cesc, nasri and van persie were the last. We'll have to wait for the next crop of youths who are prob 2+ years off yet. And even then they might not be good enough.

Unless the FFP rules are enforced properly we will always be a level below the top clubs. No hope of winning te league or CL and maybe picking up the odd cup (which is a massive flaw of Wengers that we haven't picked up something the last few years)

Royale with Cheese · 04-11-2012 12:56PM

Buttonftw wrote: »

The last few years we've been basically matching our league position with our pay levels. Our wage bill isn't low, it's the 4th highest and other than Chelsea being silly last season that's where we would've finished and it looks like that's the absolute best we can home for this season.
On paper we have a very strong team but the way they're going out to play and the effort levels are the problem.

The wages are a complete joke. So much money wasted on people like Denilson and then decent players like van Persie etc. were being paid at best half what they could get at other clubs. There's still a few players eating up a huge portion of the wage bill while contributing fúck all to the club.

That said however, I think Arsenal have the lowest transfer spend of any Premier League club over the past 5 years. They've made a profit in transfer dealings over that period I believe. If Wenger was able to go out and drop £40m on Aguero etc. then things would be different, but he can't. Because of that the club gambled on youth, paid ridiculous wages to players who didn't deserve, and that didn't work out either.

I don't really understand the idea anyway. If you give Denilson £60k a week and he turns out to be world class, he's still going to fúck off to City to earn £200k a week when they come calling. The fact you were overpaying him as a youngster isn't going to make a bit of difference to his decision. And we've seen with Fabregas that having a player on a long term contract really means fúck all if they want to leave. So as far as I can tell, you gain very little from structuring your wages like this, and you run the risk of having players who turn out to be rubbish on big wages who you can't get rid of.

ugsparky · 04-11-2012 01:12PM

Any team that loses Cesc, Nasri, Clichy, RvP and Song would suffer big time - especially when those players are not replaced. The fact that we received huge profits from the sale of Anelka, Overmars/Petit, Toure, Adebayor, Hleb plus all the players mentioned - but have only re-invested a small part of the profits back into the team, explains why we are now looking at a mid table position. As Arsene said "if we sell our best players then we are not a big club". Well now we are not a big club. At best we are a cup team - an FA Cup or a Carling/Milk/Plastic cup team. This will be our last Champions lge for a few years to come. Vieira was right when he said that there's "no point in having a big stadium when it's only half full", and after this season (especially with the pricing of tickets) we will be seeing an Emirates stadium with 40 - 50 thousand in it. I'm afraid this is the reality of things now at Arsenal.

I'm not a fair weather supporter whinging now because things are looking bad. I'm a Gooner since 1969 - watching them being beaten by Swindon on a black and white TV. Been to Highbury and the Emirates many times - in fact I'm going over to the Spurs game in a couple of weeks - but I'm saddened by what our Board of Directors and those Yank tw*ts are doing to our club. I have friends who have connections within the club and they've told me some very unsettling things. Mr. Kroenke and Mr Gazidas see us as a "product/franchise". There is a hard sell ethic being cultivated at AFC - starting the moment the fans enter the stadium. It has been suggested that we have staff wandering through the stadium selling hotdogs/fast food/snacks/drinks as they do at American Stadia. Aggresive ticket pricing is/now also being considered. I have this on good authority from a friend who knows a person who worked within AFC. She has since left as she didn't agree with the direction the club was being lead. (Check who has left the staff in the last two years ...). We are being "Americanised" ... Victoria Concordia Crescit indeed.

As I said I'm going over to the Spurs game to see "my" team. I'm buying no merchandise or programme. I'll talk with the rest of the Gooners in the Highbury Barn before and after the game ... I have a feeling I'll be listening to a lot of grief.

ugsparky · 04-11-2012 01:24PM

I must withdraw my remarks about Mike Dean. There were a few ankle taps but the referee had a good game. Yesterday was all down to us. Best part of it was our away fans. I kinda hoped they would sing Van Persie's name at the end of it - it would have added that touch of class and acknowledged what the striker said about our clubs ambition ... even though it kills me to see him in a Utd shirt.

Fuzzy_Dunlop · 04-11-2012 01:24PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The last few years we've been basically matching our league position with our pay levels. Our wage bill isn't low, it's the 4th highest and other than Chelsea being silly last season that's where we would've finished and it looks like that's the absolute best we can home for this season.
On paper we have a very strong team but the way they're going out to play and the effort levels are the problem.

Genuine question, as I've seen this said before, is this a complaint? Seems to be strange when people go on about how they want Wenger out and he's doing a bad job etc. when in terms of the wage bill he's performing exactly as expected (or better). And that's even ignoring the fact that in terms of net transfer fees paid we're far and away behind everyone else.

04-11-2012 01:33PM

Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote: »

Genuine question, as I've seen this said before, is this a complaint? Seems to be strange when people go on about how they want Wenger out and he's doing a bad job etc. when in terms of the wage bill he's performing exactly as expected (or better). And that's even ignoring the fact that in terms of net transfer fees paid we're far and away behind everyone else.

He's generally matching what we're spending, it's a long time since he "achieved" anything outstanding. People talk about losing this player and that player and staying near the top like it's an achievement.

Mickeroo · 04-11-2012 01:35PM

Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote: »

Genuine question, as I've seen this said before, is this a complaint? Seems to be strange when people go on about how they want Wenger out and he's doing a bad job etc. when in terms of the wage bill he's performing exactly as expected (or better). And that's even ignoring the fact that in terms of net transfer fees paid we're far and away behind everyone else.

I don't think Button's (could be wrong of course) post is complaining about Wenger doing a decent job with what he's given, which he has to an extent imho. I think he raises a good point though, on paper we have a really good squad, leaving Rooney and RVP aside, we fielded a stronger team man for man than Utd yesterday (obviously not including Santos in that). The big problem with us is not lack of quality in the squad imo, it's something psychological, whether it's lack of motivation or confidence I'm not sure. At the top level in any sport motivation & confidence are just as important if not more than actual ability and at the moment I don't see very much of that in our squad. Look at what Ferguson has done with United, there's plenty of players on the team who are no where near world class yet they still compete, and that's more down to the mentality in the squad than anything else.

tayto lover · 04-11-2012 02:45PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

I don't think Button's (could be wrong of course) post is complaining about Wenger doing a decent job with what he's given, which he has to an extent imho. I think he raises a good point though, on paper we have a really good squad, leaving Rooney and RVP aside, we fielded a stronger team man for man than Utd yesterday (obviously not including Santos in that). The big problem with us is not lack of quality in the squad imo, it's something psychological, whether it's lack of motivation or confidence I'm not sure. At the top level in any sport motivation & confidence are just as important if not more than actual ability and at the moment I don't see very much of that in our squad. Look at what Ferguson has done with United, there's plenty of players on the team who are no where near world class yet they still compete, and that's more down to the mentality in the squad than anything else.

Exactly what I was suggesting last night.
We see teams like Stoke, West Ham and Fulham who spend a lot less than us and their players fight for the team as if their lives depend on it against the likes of United and Chelsea. In this respect our team yesterday were a disgrace. No fight at all.
The psychological end of our performance is very poor and this is obviously down to the Professor as he gives the team talk.

Fuzzy_Dunlop · 04-11-2012 02:54PM

Deleted User wrote: »

He's generally matching what we're spending, it's a long time since he "achieved" anything outstanding. People talk about losing this player and that player and staying near the top like it's an achievement.

But you have to ask if losing those players is actually down to Wenger or the higher ups? Would a new manager have significantly better resources to make use of?

Mickeroo wrote: »

I don't think Button's (could be wrong of course) post is complaining about Wenger doing a decent job with what he's given, which he has to an extent imho. I think he raises a good point though, on paper we have a really good squad, leaving Rooney and RVP aside, we fielded a stronger team man for man than Utd yesterday (obviously not including Santos in that). The big problem with us is not lack of quality in the squad imo, it's something psychological, whether it's lack of motivation or confidence I'm not sure. At the top level in any sport motivation & confidence are just as important if not more than actual ability and at the moment I don't see very much of that in our squad. Look at what Ferguson has done with United, there's plenty of players on the team who are no where near world class yet they still compete, and that's more down to the mentality in the squad than anything else.

This side of things is something I agree with and would my my main complaint about Wenger in that he can't seem to regularly bring the best out of the team to fight and consistently play above their individual level like Ferguson does. However you could also argue that Wenger does get more out of certain players than other managers would, look at how a lot of players have left the club only to fall into obscurity.

.jacksparrow. · 04-11-2012 03:00PM

Seems Theo is off.

Sign Theo,develop Theo,persist with him,then sell him for FREE once he is ready to bang in 15 plus goals a season.

Something isn't right.

04-11-2012 03:03PM

Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote: »

But you have to ask if losing those players is actually down to Wenger or the higher ups? Would a new manager have significantly better resources to make use of?

You're completely missing the point. While often sport is about spending the most money to win there are sometimes outstanding people who buck that trend. Wenger hasn't really done so in what will quite soon be a decade. In "making do" financially he hasn't been having to bring his own toilet roll into work, he's just been below a couple of other teams and as far as taking money into account goes the best one can say about Wenger is that for the last 7 or so years he's done an acceptable job. That's just looking at league position, in terms of cup runs he's done IMO an acceptable job in that time, couple of very good runs but 2 out of 20+ isn't that great a success rate.

Fuzzy_Dunlop · 04-11-2012 03:11PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You're completely missing the point. While often sport is about spending the most money to win there are sometimes outstanding people who buck that trend. Wenger hasn't really done so in what will quite soon be a decade. In "making do" financially he hasn't been having to bring his own toilet roll into work, he's just been below a couple of other teams and as far as taking money into account goes the best one can say about Wenger is that for the last 7 or so years he's done an acceptable job. That's just looking at league position, in terms of cup runs he's done IMO an acceptable job in that time, couple of very good runs but 2 out of 20+ isn't that great a success rate.

Have any managers been doing so consistently and winning things recently though? The only one I could think of would be Klopp at Dortmund, who I would say is someone I'd like to succeed Wenger when the time comes.

04-11-2012 03:13PM

Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote: »

Have any managers been doing so consistently and winning things recently though? The only one I could think of would be Klopp at Dortmund, who I would say is someone I'd like to succeed Wenger when the time comes.

Doing which consistently? Just so I know exactly what I'm replying to. :pac:

Gringo180 · 04-11-2012 03:40PM

Maybe if we dont get 4th this season it might be the kick up the hole the club needs, sure once we finish top4 every season I cant see anything changing.

bad2dabone · 04-11-2012 03:48PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

Maybe if we dont get 4th this season it might be the kick up the hole the club needs, sure once we finish top4 every season I cant see anything changing.

you've got a good point there.

greendom · 04-11-2012 04:11PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Exactly what I was suggesting last night.
We see teams like Stoke, West Ham and Fulham who spend a lot less than us and their players fight for the team as if their lives depend on it against the likes of United and Chelsea. In this respect our team yesterday were a disgrace. No fight at all.
The psychological end of our performance is very poor and this is obviously down to the Professor as he gives the team talk.

Their net spend - the money actually put into the club by the owners, is much much higher in those clubs than ours. And if the Reading game wasn't the finest ever example of players fighting for the team, then I can't think of a finer one. Yesterday was very poor and I don't know what caused such an insipid performance, but i'm not going to use it as a valid example of our current team's potential or ability to fight.

Fuzzy_Dunlop · 04-11-2012 04:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Doing which consistently? Just so I know exactly what I'm replying to. :pac:

Consistently getting more out of a team then would be expected and over achieving given the resources available. Obviously there would be smaller teams in lower leagues etc. but I'm moreso referring to bigger teams of Arsenal's calibre or thereabouts.

04-11-2012 04:13PM

Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote: »

Consistently getting more out of a team then would be expected and over achieving given the resources available. Obviously there would be smaller teams in lower leagues etc. but I'm moreso referring to bigger teams of Arsenal's calibre or thereabouts.

Then why not take a punt on someone new?

Arsenal Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 12/13 MOD POST #232

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