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Is the fear of Paedophilia preventing positive male role models?

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    #272
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Essentially, what you're saying is that it is hysteria, but as it keeps kids safe, by keeping parents "on their feet", it's not a bad thing. Indeed, as most cases involve male abusers, you end by essentially justifying this blanket prejudice over all men.

    Please, please, please stop pretending that you are in any way balanced in this discussion.

    He is repeatedly posting statements that support and exacerbate the problem and then he denies it. Time and time again.

    I am tired of pointing it out to him - so I am simply going to accept that his posts exhibit the irrational level of thinking that is going on in society, produced by the unbalanced and hysterical nature of the news coverage.

    That there are even men who can be so confused about their response and their views demonstrates the very point being discussed.

    It demonstrates the corrupting affect of biased reporting; reporting without any perspective or proportionality over a long period. It really messes with people's heads and their ability to assess risk, causing them to adopt extreme views under the umbrella of a 'better safe than sorry' policy that they can then rationalise to themselves despite the obvious wider damage to society. But they excuse this because of the fear being instilled in them by the Media.

    We desperately need some authoritative source of real world information - to counter balance this bias.


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    #273
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Actually, you've done nothing other than argue the case of why male babysitters should not be employed.
    No, I've said the reasons that I feel people don't employ male babysitters.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    So you've pointed out why there's a perceived higher level of danger in hiring a male, why this danger is so and then ignored any and all counter arguments against your view, despite claiming to seek other opinions.
    Counter arguments for what exactly? I've pointed out the fears, because they're real.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Essentially, what you're saying is that it is hysteria, but as it keeps kids safe, by keeping parents "on their feet", it's not a bad thing.
    No, what I'm saying is that the perception and fear of pedophilia keeps parents on their toes which is not a bad thing as in the past things happened it wasn't there and look what happened. But unfortunately it has also lead to forms of prejudice.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Indeed, as most cases involve male abusers, you end by essentially justifying this blanket prejudice over all men.
    No I didn't.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Please, please, please stop pretending that you are in any way balanced in this discussion.
    They way you talk, you'd swear I was a man hater... which is absurd to be honest.
    Piliger wrote: »
    He is repeatedly posting statements that support and exacerbate the problem and then he denies it. Time and time again.
    support? no, just highlight the issues.
    Piliger wrote: »
    I am tired of pointing it out to him - so I am simply going to accept that his posts exhibit the irrational level of thinking that is going on in society, produced by the unbalanced and hysterical nature of the news coverage.
    Do that if it makes you happy. I'm tired of saying that I agree with the premise of the thread.


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    #274
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    A couple more articles that are interesting:

    Wall street Journal

    "Consider the Iowa daycare center where Nichole Adkins works. The one male aide employed there, she told me in an interview, is not allowed to change diapers. "In fact," Ms. Adkins said, "he has been asked to leave the classroom when diapering was happening.""

    http://human-stupidity.com


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    #275
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    Piliger wrote: »
    A couple more articles that are interesting:

    Wall street Journal

    "Consider the Iowa daycare center where Nichole Adkins works. The one male aide employed there, she told me in an interview, is not allowed to change diapers. "In fact," Ms. Adkins said, "he has been asked to leave the classroom when diapering was happening.""

    http://human-stupidity.com
    Last February, a woman followed a man around at a store berating him for clutching a pile of girls' panties. "I can't believe this! You're disgusting. This is a public place, you pervert!" she said—until the guy, who posted about the episode on a website, fished out his ID. He was a clerk restocking the underwear department.

    This reminds me of the woman reporting the grandfather for looking at books in the children's section.

    I think one of the issues that may be involved is vigilantism. Generally in society now, vigilantism isn't encouraged that much; however, if it's done in the name of protecting children, it's a different matter. Similarly, saving people e.g. from a burning building or whatever can be risky for oneself; but one can get the "hero feeling" by reporting some sort of behaviour you think might be risky for children, without taking on the risks involved in other "hero"-type activities.


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    #276
    sha the man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26 ✭sha the man


    LeeHoffmann wrote: »
    this is like the male version of ´all men are potential rapists, therefore to protect myself I avoid all contact with men´. This being your third post makes me suspicious, but if it´s true - that´s a sad state of affairs and I´d advise you to get a little perspective. Most men and women don´t think all men are rapists as you claim

    suspicious of what exactly. first of all i have nothing to prove to you or anyone else. second i have never and would never do anything to harm another human being, however the only way i know of to protect myself is to avoid potential danger. you don't willingly stick your arm into the lions den and then complain when its bitten off. the fact is that there is a suspicion of men in today. the only way you can know this is to open your eyes and look around you. the biased media such as family guy and the simpsons portray the men as fat useless foolish oafs or in the case of family guy the same of above with the addition of sex mad quagmire whose culmination was being in bed with peter griffins daughter. the bottom line is o will always protect myself from the crazies and were any woman in my position she would do the same


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    #277
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    sha the man wrote: »
    suspicious of what exactly. first of all i have nothing to prove to you or anyone else. second i have never and would never do anything to harm another human being, however the only way i know of to protect myself is to avoid potential danger. you don't willingly stick your arm into the lions den and then complain when its bitten off. the fact is that there is a suspicion of men in today. the only way you can know this is to open your eyes and look around you. the biased media such as family guy and the simpsons portray the men as fat useless foolish oafs or in the case of family guy the same of above with the addition of sex mad quagmire whose culmination was being in bed with peter griffins daughter. the bottom line is o will always protect myself from the crazies and were any woman in my position she would do the same
    Women's Studies, I know, does a lot of analysis of women in the media, literature, advertisements, etc., past and present.

    I think similar work on men and how they are portrayed would be interesting.

    I think there is a little bit done now in Gender Studies but not sure how much and sometimes it may be done through the prism of feminism.


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    #278
    LeeHoffmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭LeeHoffmann


    suspicious of what exactly. first of all i have nothing to prove to you or anyone else. second i have never and would never do anything to harm another human being
    wilful misinterpretation, eh? Just in case...I suspect that, given that was your third post, you´re a re-reg troll. If I´m wrong and you are a genuine albeit newbie poster then I advise you take some perspective. It is a silly over exaggeration to say that most men and women think that all men are rapists. It´s mad to completely withdraw from society based on that. Hence I compared you to those women who say things like "all men are potential rapists therefore, to protect myself, I cannot interact with men" - i.e. the very attitude you rightfully denigrate. Your attitude is just as radical and indefensible as that one.


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    #279
    sha the man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26 ✭sha the man


    LeeHoffmann wrote: »
    wilful misinterpretation, eh? Just in case...I suspect that, given that was your third post, you´re a re-reg troll. If I´m wrong and you are a genuine albeit newbie poster then I advise you take some perspective. It is a silly over exaggeration to say that most men and women think that all men are rapists. It´s mad to completely withdraw from society based on that. Hence I compared you to those women who say things like "all men are potential rapists therefore, to protect myself, I cannot interact with men" - i.e. the very attitude you rightfully denigrate. Your attitude is just as radical and indefensible as that one.

    look man you do what you want as regards women tis a free country. i am new to boards but not to my ideas and i will not become a chump working to pay a mortgage on a house that some woman i knocked up wants to live there on her own. that is my choice i take the experience of other people and i try to learn from them. if your happy to take all your earnings and gamble them then fair enough. i have come to my decision through observation and logic


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    #280
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    sha the man wrote: »
    look man you do what you want as regards women tis a free country. i am new to boards but not to my ideas and i will not become a chump working to pay a mortgage on a house that some woman i knocked up wants to live there on her own. that is my choice i take the experience of other people and i try to learn from them. if your happy to take all your earnings and gamble them then fair enough. i have come to my decision through observation and logic
    This approach is sometimes summarised as MGTOW (men going their own way).


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    #281
    sha the man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26 ✭sha the man


    thank you another Americanism to remember i will look into it. but i came to this conclusion a long time ago


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    #282
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    sha the man wrote: »
    suspicious of what exactly. first of all i have nothing to prove to you or anyone else. second i have never and would never do anything to harm another human being, however the only way i know of to protect myself is to avoid potential danger.

    You have nothing to apologise or defend. I think your position makes perfect sense. You should not feel that you need to sacrifice yourself on the alter of society's prejudice.


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    #283
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    smash wrote: »
    No, I've said the reasons that I feel people don't employ male babysitters.
    Actually you've done more than that - you've supported these arguments, such as the generalization about boy's maturity being inferior to girls as a 'fact'. So please stop pretending you're in any way balanced here.
    Counter arguments for what exactly? I've pointed out the fears, because they're real.
    Counter arguments for your ridiculous generalizations, such as the one I mention above. As to fear being real, of course it is, just as a child's fear of the dark is real - doesn't justify or make it a 'real' threat though.
    No, what I'm saying is that the perception and fear of pedophilia keeps parents on their toes which is not a bad thing as in the past things happened it wasn't there and look what happened. But unfortunately it has also lead to forms of prejudice.
    Yet you are portraying this prejudice, born out of hysteria, to be a necessary evil (if not please show where you have said otherwise) and this is where our views diverge.

    At no point have you suggested that the effect of this hysteria on male role models for children is in any way bad - indeed, you've supported the hysteria's capacity to keep "parents on their toes". Hence I and others have concluded that on balance you support it.

    If this is incorrect, then by all means point out where you have said otherwise, otherwise it is clear from your arguments that this is the conclusion you've been attempting to reach in your arguments.


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    #284
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Actually you've done more than that - you've supported these arguments, such as the generalization about boy's maturity being inferior to girls as a 'fact'. So please stop pretending you're in any way balanced here.
    No I haven't supported them, Don't know why I have to keep repeating myself but if you can't understand the statement "I'm not supporting them" then it's your issue.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Counter arguments for your ridiculous generalizations, such as the one I mention above. As to fear being real, of course it is, just as a child's fear of the dark is real - doesn't justify or make it a 'real' threat though.
    A real fear vs real threat argument... well there's clearly not going to be any winners here as when it involves your child, you're going to go with your heart and not sit down to analyse the situation to see if you're being irrational about their safety. That's not going to change.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Yet you are portraying this prejudice, born out of hysteria, to be a necessary evil (if not please show where you have said otherwise) and this is where our views diverge.
    No I'm not portraying the prejudice as a necessary evil, I'm saying the general fear of pedophilia has become a necessary evil. The same way the fear of abduction is a necessary evil. You know "don't talk to strangers" "don't go too far" etc etc. Because every day there are stories about it happening somewhere.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    At no point have you suggested that the effect of this hysteria on male role models for children is in any way bad - indeed, you've supported the hysteria's capacity to keep "parents on their toes".
    Jesus, another one who can't read "But unfortunately it has also lead to forms of prejudice." I would have though that 'But unfortunately' says it's bad. And again, I don't support the prejudice.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Hence I and others have concluded that on balance you support it.
    You and one other. And you're both wrong.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    If this is incorrect, then by all means point out where you have said otherwise,
    Just did that above.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    otherwise it is clear from your arguments that this is the conclusion you've been attempting to reach in your arguments.
    No, it might be clear in your head but that's the only place.


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    #285
    LeeHoffmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭LeeHoffmann


    look man you do what you want as regards women tis a free country. i am new to boards but not to my ideas and i will not become a chump working to pay a mortgage on a house that some woman i knocked up wants to live there on her own. that is my choice i take the experience of other people and i try to learn from them. if your happy to take all your earnings and gamble them then fair enough. i have come to my decision through observation and logic
    that´s not what you said. You said you do not interact with society, not that you don´t have relationships :rolleyes:


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    #286
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,912 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Is it wrong to maybe prefer, or to choose a female babysitter over a male? Generally speaking. Two teens (16-19), both unrelated to you and your children, both available to babysit your young children. You know them both equally well. I would hedge a bet that most people would choose the female.


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    #287
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    walshb wrote: »
    Is it wrong to maybe prefer, or to choose a female babysitter over a male? Generally speaking. Two teens (16-19), both unrelated to you and your children, both available to babysit your young children. You know them both equally well. I would hedge a bet that most people would choose the female.
    Maybe you can answer your own question.

    Is it wrong to maybe prefer, or to choose a fe male babysitter employee over a female? Generally speaking. Two teens (16-19) employees, both unrelated to you and your children equally qualified...

    I'd hedge a bet that most people would consider selecting the man, simply because he's male a bad thing.

    I don't think it's "wrong" to choose either on personal preference, so long as you're not ignorant to your prejudice. That said, it is very wrong not to choose the male simply because you think he's a sexual predator.


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    #288
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,912 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Zulu wrote: »
    Maybe you can answer your own question.

    Is it wrong to maybe prefer, or to choose a fe male babysitter employee over a female? Generally speaking. Two teens (16-19) employees, both unrelated to you and your children equally qualified...

    I'd hedge a bet that most people would consider selecting the man, simply because he's male a bad thing.

    I don't think it's "wrong" to choose either on personal preference, so long as you're not ignorant to your prejudice. That said, it is very wrong not to choose the male simply because you think he's a sexual predator.

    Me? If I had to choose I would select the female.


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    #289
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    smash wrote: »
    No I'm not portraying the prejudice as a necessary evil, I'm saying the general fear of pedophilia has become a necessary evil. The same way the fear of abduction is a necessary evil. You know "don't talk to strangers" "don't go too far" etc etc. Because every day there are stories about it happening somewhere.
    Yet how this fear is manifesting itself, in the systematic exclusion of men from the lives of children, is part of that apparent 'necessary evil'. You may deem it "unfortunate", but that's the nature of 'necessary evil' - unfortunate, but ultimately required - and that appears to be your position in lieu of any criticism of it, beyond vaguely calling it a prejudice, but otherwise accepting its place in society.

    So we know it happens, and we know why it happens. Is this justified and if not, what should be done to fix the situation?
    walshb wrote: »
    Is it wrong to maybe prefer, or to choose a female babysitter over a male? Generally speaking. Two teens (16-19), both unrelated to you and your children, both available to babysit your young children. You know them both equally well. I would hedge a bet that most people would choose the female.
    Sure they would. And were an employer to interview a thirty year old man and a thirty year old woman of equal suitability for a role, who do you think they'll choose? I would hedge a bet that most would choose the one less likely to go off on parental leave, potentially never to return, within the next two or so years.

    Is it wrong to maybe prefer, or to choose a male applicant over a female there? If you feel that it is not wrong to choose a female babysitter over a male, then by exactly the same logic you cannot claim that it is wrong to discriminate on the basis of gender in employment law.

    And this is the problem with this debate. We know that it happens. We know why it happens. But there appears to be some bizarre acceptance that perhaps this should happen. This, and the overall effects of this prejudice (as per the thread title), is what this thread should be about, not fatalistically pointing out that 'this is how things are' and accept them.


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    #290
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,912 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Well, should it happen? No. Does it happen? Yes. Do I understand the reasoning/logic/thought process for why it happens? Yes. That is my point. In a perfect world many things would not happen. We are far from perfect. In this world males will be perceived and viewed by people as posing a greater risk to children in a sexual sense. Where does this perception and view come from? That's an easy one to figure out.


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    #291
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    walshb wrote: »
    Well, should it happen? No. Does it happen? Yes. Do I understand the reasoning/logic/thought process for why it happens? Yes. That is my point. In a perfect world many things would not happen. We are far from perfect. In this world males will be perceived and viewed by people as posing a greater risk to children in a sexual sense. Where does this perception and view come from? That's an easy one to figure out.
    So are we just going to go round in circles then explaining where this prejudice originates from and, seemingly, agreeing that it is a negative thing for a few more pages? I ask because since we all pretty much agree on this, but if that's all we discuss, it begins to look as if some of us are actually condoning or justifying it and, frankly, thread spoiling.


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    #292
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,912 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    So are we just going to go round in circles then explaining where this prejudice originates from and, seemingly, agreeing that it is a negative thing for a few more pages? I ask because since we all pretty much agree on this, but if that's all we discuss, it begins to look as if some of us are actually condoning or justifying it and, frankly, thread spoiling.

    All in agreement. Hooray!


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    #293
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    walshb wrote: »
    All in agreement. Hooray!
    Only if you don't fall into the category of such prejudice being a 'necessary evil'.

    And even if not, what then? Or have your and smash's contribution simply been to reiterate what was already essentially agreed upon on page one of the thread?


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    #294
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Yet how this fear is manifesting itself, in the systematic exclusion of men from the lives of children, is part of that apparent 'necessary evil'. You may deem it "unfortunate", but that's the nature of 'necessary evil' - unfortunate, but ultimately required - and that appears to be your position in lieu of any criticism of it, beyond vaguely calling it a prejudice, but otherwise accepting its place in society.
    I reluctantly accept it's place in society. Not accepting it would mean that I was brushing it under the carpet like people used to do. This does not mean I support it or agree with it though.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    So we know it happens, and we know why it happens. Is this justified and if not, what should be done to fix the situation?
    I don't think anyone agrees that it's justified but there's no real world way to fix it bar lobbying for people to employ male babysitters etc over female babysitters but that's just like the ridiculous gender quota argument for females in government. People need to move on it themselves.

    People's mindsets need to change and it's not going to happen any time soon if the majority of cases where a child's supposed guardian continue to involve a male perpetrator. Maybe if the punishments were worse for these people it would deter them but I don't even think it's that simple.


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    #295
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    smash wrote: »
    People's mindsets need to change and it's not going to happen any time soon
    Certainly not if people like you lend support to such prejudices through your acceptance of them and do nothing to alter them.


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    #296
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Certainly not if people like you lend support to such prejudices through your acceptance of them and do nothing to alter them.
    Again, I don't support them. This is becoming a joke at this stage! And I do not accept them either, but I accept why they are there. It's 2 different things completely.


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    #297
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    smash wrote: »
    Again, I don't support them. This is becoming a joke at this stage! And I do not accept them either, but I accept why they are there. It's 2 different things completely.
    So in short, all your posts so far have been a long-winded effort to explain that you acknowledge the issue, but don't agree with it, but you acknowledge it?

    Super. Now it's acknowledged (but not agreed with), can we move on?

    (btw: I want the last 2 pages of this thread back!)


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    #298
    LeeHoffmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭LeeHoffmann


    to choose a fe male babysitter employee over a female?
    a babysitter isn´t like any other employee in that when you hire a babysitter, you are risking the security and wellbeing of other people (your children). An important difference


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    #299
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    LeeHoffmann wrote: »
    a babysitter isn´t like any other employee in that when you hire a babysitter, you are risking the security and wellbeing of other people (your children). An important difference
    :confused: Wut?

    You didn't really think that through, did you? So it's nothing, like, say, a teacher? or a nurse? or a doctor? or a bus driver? or a pilot? or a marine captain? or a....
    Point is, a babysitter isn't the only employee that has that level of responsibility.


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    #300
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Zulu wrote: »
    So in short, all your posts so far have been a long-winded effort to explain that you acknowledge the issue, but don't agree with it, but you acknowledge it?

    Super. Now it's acknowledged (but not agreed with), can we move on?

    (btw: I want the last 2 pages of this thread back!)
    That's what I've said since the start but other keep accusing me of supporting the prejudice. Tell them to move on.


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    #301
    LeeHoffmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭LeeHoffmann


    a babysitter isn't the only employee that has that level of responsibility.
    did you really think it through? A babysitter is usually alone with the children in a house (ie not open to the public or passers by) for hours on end. The same cannot be said of a teacher, a nurse, a doctor, a bus driver, a pilot, a marine captain, or a...
    Point is, children (particularly young children) are quite vulnerable with babysitters, and everyone has to right to choose their babysitter based on whatever prejudice they see fit. Ignoring your instincts for the sake of being PC is the height of irresponsibility because it´s not your own well-being you´re risking.

    Now having said that, if a person decided that black people/homosexuals/all males/all females/all Americans etc were untrustworthy - I´d find that ignorant, but I would defend their right to make that decision.


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