Is the fear of Paedophilia preventing positive male role models?

Blisterman

I was thinking about this. There's definitely a culture nowadays of suspicion towards men that they might be paedophiles, even when there's absolutely no evidence to suggest so. It's quite a prejudice really, though one expressed by both sexes.

I know myself, I'd be very wary of being in a position where I'm alone with kids, lest there be any misunderstandings or false accusations, because when rumours start, even if they're completely unfounded, you're screwed. And speaking to other people, I'm far from being alone in feeling this way.

And it filters down. Men are becoming discouraged from volunteering to coach sports teams or teaching in primary schools, which is really sad. But more worrying is the fact that there are whole generations of kids growing up with very little meaningful interaction with adult men outside of their family.

I live in an area with a lot of gang violence among teenage boys. The absence or lack of involvement of a father being a nearly universal factor in common, and I wonder if the lack of male role models outside of their family is a contributing factor.

Obviously there do need to be some safeguards, and the stories of abuse in past decades are horrific, but I think the whole current atmosphere has gone too far, towards the realm of hysteria, and is in fact doing more harm than good.

What are people's thoughts?

cloud_dancer

I think it's very sad if this fear does indeed stops men from volunteering and being a role model for kids. Having a positive role model/mentor can make a huge difference to a young persons life. It can guide them down the right path and help them realise goals and dreams. I volunteer for a charity that matches a young teenage person with an adult mentor. The minimum commitment is a year and you meet with the young person once a week for a couple of hours. It helps the young person build all sorts of skills, increase confidence, social skills and self belief.

Being female paedophilia didn't cross my mind when I applied but I can see how some guys might hesitate to get involved for fear of rumours. I would hope that it doesn't stop anyone. Garda vetting is strict when working with young people and they do several interviews. The whole process for me took months and they don’t let everyone who applies through. As this is formally monitored it decreases the risk of suspicion but a less formal approach to mentoring could be misunderstood. For instance if a guy was to start mentoring a lad in the neighbourhood who might have no father. All it takes is one person (who may be jealous of your work) to cast a shadow of suspicion over you.

BTW hope you don't mind a lady posting on this thred

Zulu

cloud_dancer wrote: »

BTW hope you don't mind a lady posting on this thred

I doubt anyone minds you posting, but posting in "black" is a real pain in the arse for anyone who chooses the dark skin.

Frisbee

Absolutely. I was in one of the big Theme Parks on the Gold Coast a few months back and I saw a kid (about 4) pulling out of his mams grip while she was getting money out of the ATM. She couldn't leave the ATM as her money was counting out. She saw what was happening and shouted at him to come back. I was going to grab the kid until she could get over to where we were (about 20ft away) but was somewhat reluctant to do so in case she went bananas over me touching her child.

So in the end I just kind of awkwardly stood in front of him trying to stop him running any further and called my girlfriend to grab a hold of him.

Thinking back on it I probably should have just grabbed him to stop him getting any further away, but in the back of my head I wasn't willing to in the off chance she took issue with me.

Sleepy

I've done the exact same Frisbee...

It's mad, I'm a father, a step-father and a former Chilidline volunteer so I've been fully vetted and trained to deal with children and have experience with my own but since the general public doesn't know that, I'd be too scared of people misconstruing things to even have a chat with any child that wasn't my own outside of their parents presence.

Piliger

I had several appalling experiences when I was in my early thirties, when my son was a toddler and I took a career break to be at home with him, where totally innocent situations produced ridiculous responses from women. It was sickening to me.
As a result I rejected several approaches from my local rugby club to coach, and stayed far away from several similar offers from my son's primary school.
I advise any man to stay well away from any voluntary roles unless the current situation changes. I have urged my friends to do the same and have consistently been appalled by the sheer number of similar experiences that I hear about from my social circle. Any man who goes ahead is putting his life in the hands of what is a significant population of hysterical mothers and even a few fathers.

krudler

Piliger wrote: »

I had several appalling experiences when I was in my early thirties, when my son was a toddler and I took a career break to be at home with him, where totally innocent situations produced ridiculous responses from women. It was sickening to me.
As a result I rejected several approaches from my local rugby club to coach, and stayed far away from several similar offers from my son's primary school.
I advise any man to stay well away from any voluntary roles unless the current situation changes. I have urged my friends to do the same and have consistently been appalled by the sheer number of similar experiences that I hear about from my social circle. Any man who goes ahead is putting his life in the hands of what is a significant population of hysterical mothers and even a few fathers.

Anything in particular? not a father myself but I'd take my nephew who's 9 to cinema days and stuff like that the odd time.

Dravokivich

Piliger wrote: »

I advise any man to stay well away from any voluntary roles unless the current situation changes. I have urged my friends to do the same and have consistently been appalled by the sheer number of similar experiences that I hear about from my social circle. Any man who goes ahead is putting his life in the hands of what is a significant population of hysterical mothers and even a few fathers.

Unfortunately, all you are doing is reinforcing the myth as opposed to dispelling it.

The Corinthian

A few years ago, I was stopped by two of my neighbours kids (two boys, each around ten years of age) who chatted to me, principally about languages and getting me to translate words from English into a few of the languages I can speak. After a few moments, I got the uncomfortable feeling, almost of being watched, and that I was an adult male speaking to two minors. I made my excuses and went on my way.

More recently, while walking with my other half, we passed a parked car, where a child (girl, around eight) was crying. Her nibs went straight to the car, found out what was the matter, consoled and hugged her and went to find her mother, who had momentarily left her there alone. I stepped back - "not touching this with a bargepole", I thought to myself.

Had the my other half not been with me, I would have just walked on - helping out the child is simply not worth the risk. I can see it now; "Sorry madam, your child has suffered severe dehydration from being left alone so long, but on the bright side she wasn't molested".

And this is unfortunately not an uncommon feeling for men nowadays. Permanently feeling that we should not be seen alone with kids - our own fine, but if so we have to make it publicly obvious that they're our own. Knowing that any accusation, no matter how crazy it may be, would be enough to destroy our lives even if it didn't find us in jail.

It's an attitude that has gone from reasonable care to hysteria, fed by the media (who know any paedophile story will sell papers to increasingly paranoid parents) and that has bled into blatant gender discrimination even in practice, such as the policy of some airlines not to let an unrelated man sit next to a minor.

All despite the fact that while the majority of child abusers are male, there's no shortage of female ones either.

Problem is that there's little being done to oppose this. Feminism isn't interested. Men's rights groups couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery and have far too much on their plates anyway. And so the only opposition seems to be from professional groups (such primary teachers associations) and individual cases where men have sued, successfully, at such treatment.

Certainly plenty of people claim that this is a terrible state of affairs, but in practice, I don't see them doing much other than going with the flow - almost as if they favour more men working with children, as long as they're other peoples children.

eviltwin

The Corinthian wrote: »

A few years ago, I was stopped by two of my neighbours kids (two boys, each around ten years of age) who chatted to me, principally about languages and getting me to translate words from English into a few of the languages I can speak. After a few moments, I got the uncomfortable feeling, almost of being watched, and that I was an adult male speaking to two minors. I made my excuses and went on my way.

More recently, while walking with my other half, we passed a parked car, where a child (girl, around eight) was crying. Her nibs went straight to the car, found out what was the matter, consoled and hugged her and went to find her mother, who had momentarily left her there alone. I stepped back - "not touching this with a bargepole", I thought to myself.

Had the my other half not been with me, I would have just walked on - helping out the child is simply not worth the risk. I can see it now; "Sorry madam, your child has suffered severe dehydration from being left alone so long, but on the bright side she wasn't molested".

And this is unfortunately not an uncommon feeling for men nowadays. Permanently feeling that we should not be seen alone with kids - our own fine, but if so we have to make it publicly obvious that they're our own. Knowing that any accusation, no matter how crazy it may be, would be enough to destroy our lives even if it didn't find us in jail.

It's an attitude that has gone from reasonable care to hysteria, fed by the media (who know any paedophile story will sell papers to increasingly paranoid parents) and that has bled into blatant gender discrimination even in practice, such as the policy of some airlines not to let an unrelated man sit next to a minor.

All despite the fact that while the majority of child abusers are male, there's no shortage of female ones either.

Problem is that there's little being done to oppose this. Feminism isn't interested. Men's rights groups couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery and have far too much on their plates anyway. And so the only opposition seems to be from professional groups (such primary teachers associations) and individual cases where men have sued, successfully, at such treatment.

Certainly plenty of people claim that this is a terrible state of affairs, but in practice, I don't see them doing much other than going with the flow - almost as if they favour more men working with children, as long as they're other peoples children.

You sound paranoid. My first thought when I see a man with a child who is not his own is not "paedophile". I don't know anyone who would think that way either.

The Corinthian

eviltwin wrote: »

You sound paranoid. My first thought when I see a man with a child who is not his own is not "paedophile". I don't know anyone who would think that way either.

Then there's no shortage of men who are paranoid, no shortage of attitudes, freely expressed, to make us paranoid, and no shortage of false accusations that have destroyed many a man's life.

Try being a man for a while and see how it feels.

howamidifferent

The Corinthian wrote: »

Then there's no shortage of men who are paranoid, no shortage of attitudes, freely expressed, to make us paranoid, and no shortage of false accusations that have destroyed many a man's life.

Try being a man for a while and see how it feels.

I've expressed these very opinions to my wife and sisters many times.
Not in a million years will I stay alone with a minor except my own kids.

Sad but thats the way life is.

eviltwin

The Corinthian wrote: »

Then there's no shortage of men who are paranoid, no shortage of attitudes, freely expressed, to make us paranoid, and no shortage of false accusations that have destroyed many a man's life.

Try being a man for a while and see how it feels.

I don't need to. I have a husband who has worked with kids, a single brother in law who works with kids and male friends who babysit my children and who are always around other children. Not one of them has ever been accused of anything untoward with a child. There have been no raised eyebrows, no nasty comments or questions raised. You can choose to believe that the world is out to paint you that way but the reality is most people are not so quick to judge.

Blisterman

I think a problem is that even if 99% of people are quite reasonable in the matter, all it takes is one person to take things the wrong way, and start talking, for these things to develop legs.

The Corinthian

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't need to. I have a husband who has worked with kids, a single brother in law who works with kids and male friends who babysit my children and who are always around other children. Not one of them has ever been accused of anything untoward with a child. There have been no raised eyebrows, no nasty comments or questions raised. You can choose to believe that the world is out to paint you that way but the reality is most people are not so quick to judge.

And I've known men who have been declined jobs working with children soley on their gender. And a man who was coaching swimming and was asked to leave after his brother was convicted of a sexual offence. Then there are the countless discussions where I have heard female friends blatantly argue that they would not be comfortable having a man look after their children, and even one discussion at a dinner party where one male guest, who took the time to play with the hosts kids, at the start of the evening, was (behind his back) accused of having an "unnatural interest" in them.

I would doubt that any of the examples you presented are as rosy as you make out in reality, even if they themselves have not realized it. Much of this prejudice is whispered in the background, or occurs when CV's are being culled. Not everyone is so quick to judge, but unfortunately there's plenty who do.

Neither can you deny this where it has become official policy - as per the aforementioned airlines. Men aren't imagining that.

As I said, you probably need to be a man to actually witness this. Otherwise, you're largely speaking from ignorance.

eviltwin

Blisterman wrote: »

I think a problem is that even if 99% of people are quite reasonable in the matter, all it takes is one person to take things the wrong way, and start talking, for these things to develop legs.

I can understand that and I have no issue with anyone taking precautions. I would be wary taking a lost child to a security desk in a shop. I've done it before and in the back of my head I've been hoping the parent or minder doesn't think I am trying to abduct them. But you can take it to extremes. I would find it a bit odd if a follow parent didn't engage with kids or if a neighbour ignored a child who spoke to them. I suppose you have to do what you feel you need to but totally distancing yourself from all children bar your own might backfire.

iptba

Dravokivich wrote: »

Unfortunately, all you are doing is reinforcing the myth as opposed to dispelling it.

It doesn't look like it was a myth - he had bad experiences:

I had several appalling experiences when I was in my early thirties, when my son was a toddler and I took a career break to be at home with him, where totally innocent situations produced ridiculous responses from women. It was sickening to me.

It's the responses he referred to that need to change.

eviltwin

The Corinthian wrote: »

And I've known men who have been declined jobs working with children soley on their gender. And a man who was coaching swimming and was asked to leave after his brother was convicted of a sexual offence. Then there are the countless discussions where I have heard female friends blatantly argue that they would not be comfortable having a man look after their children, and even one discussion at a dinner party where one male guest, who took the time to play with the hosts kids, at the start of the evening, was (behind his back) accused of having an "unnatural interest" in them.

I would doubt that any of the examples you presented are as rosy as you make out in reality, even if they themselves have not realized it. Much of this prejudice is whispered in the background, or occurs when CV's are being culled. Not everyone is so quick to judge, but unfortunately there's plenty who do.

Neither can you deny this where it has become official policy - as per the aforementioned airlines. Men aren't imagining that.

As I said, you probably need to be a man to actually witness this. Otherwise, you're largely speaking from ignorance.

Equally I think you have just highlighted some extreme examples.

The Corinthian

eviltwin wrote: »

I suppose you have to do what you feel you need to but totally distancing yourself from all children bar your own might backfire.

Yes it will, on everyone. Maybe then, when rugby is cut because there's no one to coach it, for example, people will cop on and have a rethink.

The Corinthian

eviltwin wrote: »

Equally I think you have just highlighted some extreme examples.

Airline policy that discriminates on gender, implying that men are natural child molesters, held by numerous companies, is an extreme example?

eviltwin

The Corinthian wrote: »

Airline policy that discriminates on gender, implying that men are natural child molesters, held by numerous companies, is an extreme example?

What policies, what companies? Its illegal to discriminate on the basis of gender. If you have proof its happening I suggest you contact the relevant authorities.

deandean

I have done some volunteering for stuff like this and it has gone fine, but it was in a school situation whereby I was already known to most parents.

But yes the situation as discussed has gotten ridiculous. Last year I suggested getting a group of parents together to bring about ten kids on an art outing, it would have saved about 200 Euro to not need a minibus. The teacher explained to me that no child can be left on his or our own with an adult, and the problem with cars is that if a child gets sick and has to be taken out of the car, he needs two adults with him because he cannot be alone with one adult. Then if you have another child left in the car you also need two adults to remain in the car, so that makes four adults in the car with one child, but then a child should not be on his/her own, etc etc, it just got ridiculous.

iptba

Not a particularly exciting example perhaps but recently a neighbour's kid was dropping something in. Sometimes I have played with him before either throwing a ball around or a board game while his grandmother and the woman of the house talk. However, this time he was just dropping something in on his own. Spontaneously I asked did he want a game of something (I wanted a break from work); I quickly regretted it thinking how it might seem and until he was gone, felt nervous that the two of us were alone together.
ETA: I'm remembering now that I nearly offered him a biscuit, as I would to other guests, and then quickly realised that it would be much safer not to.

Max Power

Interesting thread. I'm only 25 but I remember a couple of years ago when I started coaching my local GAA's U12 team my mother said to me, never ever let yourself be alone with a child, you just don't know what he/she is going to say. We live in a small town and it doesn't take much for the local biddy's to start talking.

I live next door to a 10 year old who is constantly asking me to go out and kick around the ball with him, asking if he can come for a drive if I'm heading out in the car or if I'm out doing some work on the car he will always come over looking to help. He is a lovely lad and it kills me every time to reject him.

It's the way of the world I suppose and it's pretty damn sad!

Dravokivich

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't need to. I have a husband who has worked with kids, a single brother in law who works with kids and male friends who babysit my children and who are always around other children. Not one of them has ever been accused of anything untoward with a child. There have been no raised eyebrows, no nasty comments or questions raised. You can choose to believe that the world is out to paint you that way but the reality is most people are not so quick to judge.

The thing you need to recognise though, is you are forming this idea of your peers based on your knowledge of your peers, where as TC and the others above are recognising that they are strangers in the instances they've portrayed.

iptba wrote: »

It doesn't look like it was a myth - he had bad experiences:


It's the responses he referred to that need to change.

He made reference to 1 instance where there was a misunderstanding. He was not in anyway a threat in that incident, but someone else took him up to be. The entire issue/expectation that unknown men are by default a threat to kids is a complete fabrication and he recognises this himself. It was this I referred to as a "myth." And why I used that particular turn of phrase? He is negatively enforcing the idea by going out and telling everyone he knows to keep away from ever being in a similar situation. He himself is promoting the issue, by telling people to avoid it.

iptba

Dravokivich wrote: »

He made reference to 1 instance where there was a misunderstanding.

He said:

several appalling experiences

Dravokivich wrote: »

He was not in anyway a threat in that incident, but someone else took him up to be. The entire issue/expectation that unknown men are by default a threat to kids is a complete fabrication and he recognises this himself. It was this I referred to as a "myth."

He didn't post anything to say that he thinks there is a huge problem with men interfering with children and that everyone should be suspicious of any men alone with children so I don't seem why he is being accused of reinforcing it.

Dravokivich wrote: »

He is negatively enforcing the idea by going out and telling everyone he knows to keep away from ever being in a similar situation. He himself is promoting the issue, by telling people to avoid it.

That may be true. And if you want to criticise him for that, fair enough. But that's not the same as the myth you mentioned - you conflated the two issues.

Dravokivich

iptba wrote: »

He said:



He didn't post anything to say that he thinks there is a huge problem with men interfering with children and that everyone should be suspicious of any men alone with children so I don't seem why he is being accused of reinforcing it.

I'm not looking to drag this out to any more than what was said, or press Piliger into something either, my comment was based primarily on the following quote:

I advise any man to stay well away from any voluntary roles unless the current situation changes.

...which he expanded on, but the entire part I kept in quote is related to that first line.

He is calling for men not to get involved because there is an idea (MYTH) which carries an expectation that bad things will happen. He is in a way reinforcing that idea. Telling men to avoid contact does not show that men are safe to be in contact.

iptba

Dravokivich wrote: »

I advise any man to stay well away from any voluntary roles unless the current situation changes.

He is calling for men not to get involved because there is an idea (MYTH) which carries an expectation that bad things will happen. He is in a way reinforcing that idea. Telling men to avoid contact does not show that men are safe to be in contact.

To me there are two issues:

(i) Is it safe for children to be left alone/be in contact with a man/men? What are the risks and level of risks.

(ii) Is it safe for men to be left alone/be in contact with one or more children? What are the risks and level of risks for the men in terms of false accusations.

His point referred to (ii) on which he had bad experiences.

Aiel

Its very hard and frustrating for teachers now especially.I work in a bookshop near to a local secondary school.Teachers are now not allowed to be alone with a child in a room(if the door is closed).There basically has to be another person there or within ear shot of the teacher and child.The problem is that a child is far less likely to "open up" to a teacher if there is another person there aswell.A case in point being that one particular kid who is 16 has a few problems(nothing major,normal teenage stresses) and has needed someone to chat to.The teacher cant always get someone else to be there and so cant chat to the child.I know this kid and he comes into my bookshop and started telling me some of his problems.Because its a shop and so technically a retail store i can chat to him because he is a customer.At 5pm though i make sure hes well out the door before i close the shop and turn off the lights etc.The teacher has commented to me that its so good that im there to chat with this teenager as he knows he needs someone.Ive been able to tell the teacher and his mum what hes been saying but ideally the teacher who knows this kid well should be allowed to chat with the child in comfort(half the time its just to be an ear to listen to).I know the teacher is frustrated by the current situation.

Dravokivich

iptba wrote: »

To me there are two issues:

(i) Is it safe for children to be left alone/be in contact with a man/men? What are the risks and level of risks.

(ii) Is it safe for men to be left alone/be in contact with one or more children? What are the risks and level of risks for the men in terms of false accusations.

His point referred to (ii) on which he had bad experiences.

Those are both the same thing to me. It makes no difference how many children or men there are.

He has not mentioned what exactly those bad experiences where. But my understanding is they were all people latching onto the stereotype that a man around a child is a bad thing. Which I'm sure we all agree is a myth.Him telling men not to be around children does not dispell this myth, as it is literally saying, we can't show we are able to be around children.

That's all the comment meant.

The Corinthian

eviltwin wrote: »

What policies, what companies? Its illegal to discriminate on the basis of gender. If you have proof its happening I suggest you contact the relevant authorities.

Why don't you read some of the links I already posted?

Airlines with this policy include (after a quick Google):

• British Airways
• Virgin Australia
• Quantas

It should be noted, while it is reported that BA has updated it's policy, it's not exactly done so. All they've done is change policy so that unaccompanied minors have to sit in minors seating, rather than any adult. If this seating area is insufficient to accommodate all unaccompanied minors travelling, the old policy would apply.

Now are you seriously going to tell me that with this kind of discrimination being official policy on major airlines that it's all extreme examples and men are imagining it?