Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?

Nodin · 30-10-2012 08:19PM

Sheeps wrote: »

You are correct in that there would be a contradiction if you had a colonised nation fighting for an oppressive empire for the continued colonisation and oppression of the nation and it's people.

If however you had those same colonised people fighting for the oppressive nation against a common enemy that paradox is no longer applicable. Irish soldiers fighting in Irish men in Irish regiments of the British army in World War 2 is a perfect example of this. It's no different to honouring the Irish who fought in World War 2 with the Americans or Canadians for that matter.

World War 1 is also an example of this to a lesser extent, although you could undermine this point by the fact that there was an element of people going to war for glory which had arguably tied in with strengthening the British Empire. This however was also also the case on the German side, so there was still a common enemy and for this reason the logic same should apply.

I was speaking with regard to Irish people serving in the British Army generally, rather than those who fought in WW1 or II. Those conflicts are, however, generally referred to in defence of the poppy, despite the fact the funds go to ex-service personnell regardless.

LordSutch · 30-10-2012 09:09PM

Sound of Silence wrote: »

By it's very definition, one could hardly consider the Rememberance Day celebrations as being a forum for inward looking criticism, as far as the British Military is concerned. Much like Republican memorials, there doesn't really seem to be any real qualification for who is being celebrated.

Just one word bothers me here, and that is the word 'celebrations', for if there is one thing about poppy day/remembrance sunday that stands out, its the fact that it most certainly is not a celebration, but rather a commemoration of the fallen/dead (with heads bowed and a somber tone). Maybe some peope do refer to the 11th as a celebration? but many is the time I personally have been close to tears at a remembrance service, such is the sadness & the realisation of how how many have died in awful conditions, and we commemorate their loss . . .

http://www.crewsnest.vispa.com/remember.htm

Thats just my personal view.

Feathers · 30-10-2012 09:27PM

philologos wrote: »

No but if you're going to claim that the British were solely oppressors that's simply just not true. The reality is that there were Irish people involved in this conflict. To ignore that seems to be deceit about history. If you're going to bring up the British part of the conflict, give us the whole story.

When did I claim that? I didn't bring up the whole story because the thread is about the British Legion's charity drive. (& yes, while poppies the flowers may have a wider meaning that goes beyond this, I'm presuming the thread is about wearing a plastic poppy bought for a few pound as part of 'the Poppy Appeal ©'.)

If we were talking about attending Wolfe Tones gigs in the 70s, I'd be talking about funding going to the IRA, but we're not.

I think it's a little ironic that you brought up people's sole idea of Irishness as being small-mindedly anti-British & how we should move away from that but at the same time, want me to justify my reasons for not wearing a poppy with reference to the IRA...

Sound of Silence · 30-10-2012 10:32PM

LordSutch wrote: »

Just one word bothers me here, and that is the word 'celebrations', for if there is one thing about poppy day/remembrance sunday that stands out, its the fact that it most certainly is not a celebration, but rather a commemoration of the fallen/dead (with heads bowed and a somber tone). Maybe some peope do refer to the 11th as a celebration? but many is the time I personally have been close to tears at a remembrance service, such is the sadness & the realisation of how how many have died in awful conditions, and we commemorate their loss . . .

http://www.crewsnest.vispa.com/remember.htm

Thats just my personal view.

Commemoration was actually the word I was looking for. Having escaped me, I substituted it with "Celebration", as it would seem that the service of both the surviving veterans and those who perished would seem to be celebrated in equal measure.

Whilst people are saddened by the loss of so many men, I doubt that many of the veterans would consider their deaths to have been worthless. They understand and celebrate the fact that these men gave their lives for whatever cause they saw to be righteous and worthwhile in the pursuance of peace.

My objections arise whenever those who have found themselves at the receiving end of British righteousness are also expected to commemorate the dead, lest they be considered "narrow-minded". I wouldn't expect you to commemorate the dead Republicans who brought the Irish Free State kicking and screaming into existence, as I imagine you would consider yourself to have been on the short end of the stick in that regard.

bobbysands81 · 30-10-2012 11:31PM

Lelantos wrote: »

Your view of history seems to be 50 years long, can you please tell me when this island of ours was last completely "Irish owned"

Huh? How is my view of Irish history only 50 years old?

bobbysands81 · 30-10-2012 11:34PM

pmcmahon wrote: »

I always end up having the same argument with republican heads,trying to explain to them how there is no such thing as the Irish people as such as Ireland is just a combination of various invasions.

If they hate the british they should hate the vikings equally.

Why do people equate Republicanism with hating 'the British'?

As for the Vikings, what part of this country do they still colonise?

maddragon · 30-10-2012 11:38PM

BX 19 wrote: »

Because an estimated 30,000 people died in WW1 from Ireland. Simple as. It's a symbol remembering those who died, and nothing more.

57,000 I think according to the plaque at Messines in Belgium.

Spread · 30-10-2012 11:51PM

To cover a burn hole in the lapel after rolling a big one.

philologos · 31-10-2012 12:12AM

Sound of Silence wrote: »

I've explained why it's a myopic view to suggest that the Poppy should be wholeheartedly accepted by everyone. The fact that the Northern Irish troubles are often shoe-horned into the debate clearly indicates that the Poppy remains a sensitive and charged topic for a number of people on this on this forum.

I honestly don't care if you partake in wearing it. I have issue with ignorant claims in respect to Irish people who would, and do honour the dead at war on November 11th by wearing a poppy.

The Northern Irish troubles come into it because the anti-poppy side tend to say look at what the British army did here, here and here. (Ignoring the fact that the poppy is worn internationally), the flipside is look at Irish violence against Britain both in the early 20th century, and in the late 20th century, and in Northern Ireland at present.

Sound of Silence wrote: »

The entire topic seems politically charged and filled with a wry condescension. There's no way of escaping this, whenever Poppy advocates continue to consider those who generally don't concern themselves with the Remeberance, for whatever reason they might have, as being essentially immoral, non-progressive, and "narrow-minded", as you put so delicately. Such an attitude will never win any supporters.

I couldn't care less whether you do or don't participate. As I've made clear, my primary objection is to those who make ignorant claims about the practice of wearing a poppy coming up to November 11th.

Sound of Silence wrote: »

By it's very definition, one could hardly consider the Rememberance Day celebrations as being a forum for inward looking criticism, as far as the British Military is concerned. Much like Republican memorials, there doesn't really seem to be any real qualification for who is being celebrated. For that reason, Nationalists will often distance themselves from what they would consider an all qualifying celebration of British Militarism. I imagine the same would apply with Southern Unionists when 2016 rolls around.

What do you think constitutes the Remembrance Day commemorations? Have you been to a Remembrance Day service in Ireland on the 11th of September?

I have, and honestly, it was never a celebration of British militarism.

By the by, I take issue to you claiming this has anything to do with southern unionism. Many people who support a 26 county republic at least, remember the dead at war on the 11th of November. The poppy has nothing to do with unionism.

Bringing in that topic is disingenuous.

philologos · 31-10-2012 12:15AM

Feathers wrote: »

I think it's a little ironic that you brought up people's sole idea of Irishness as being small-mindedly anti-British & how we should move away from that but at the same time, want me to justify my reasons for not wearing a poppy with reference to the IRA...

Nonsense.

1) A lot of Irish people do phrase Irishness in terms of a rejection of what is British, some on this thread.

2) If you make claims about the British doing X, Y or Z in Ireland. Then I expect you to be honest and claim that much of that violence came from the Irish side also. If I can't expect you to be honest, there's no point in discussing this and expecting an accurate, objective and fair assessment of the entire conflict.

3) It's not about reasons to not wear it. Quite frankly, I couldn't give a toss whether you do or not. It's when you make a silly reference to the poppy somehow glorifying British violence in Ireland that I look into Irish instigated violence. If you don't want the topic to come up, don't claim the poppy glorifies British violence in Ireland.

Chuck Stone · 31-10-2012 12:50AM

philologos wrote: »

2) If you make claims about the British doing X, Y or Z in Ireland. Then I expect you to be honest and claim that much of that violence came from the Irish side also.

Just who the fuck do you think you are that you think you can judge people?

Especially when you come out with total bull**** like this:

philologos wrote: »

I mean that it is nothing substantial to say that as Unionists / Loyalists could argue that the nationalists provoked them much as you've said the loyalists provoked the nationalists.

Let's get this straight. In the late 1960's Catholics sought equal political and civil rights from those in power who were Unionists.

They sought it peacefully and were brutally suppressed at the behest of the Unionist state up to and including being massacred for it. The blame for The Troubles lies squarely at the feet of those who violently suppressed the civil rights movement.

Stop with your flaccid attempt to make everyone equally to blame so that you can continue on your unending quest to appear morally superior to all.You're not. People can see through you.

Sound of Silence · 31-10-2012 01:13AM

philologos wrote: »

I honestly don't care if you partake in wearing it. I have issue with ignorant claims in respect to Irish people who would, and do honour the dead at war on November 11th by wearing a poppy.

And what are these claims that I've made?

My argument essentially boils down to the fact that no one should feel obligated to wear a poppy for fear of being considered "narrow-minded". You might not feel that you're confronting my own personal choice, but it's heavily implied.

The Northern Irish troubles come into it because the anti-poppy side tend to say look at what the British army did here, here and here. (Ignoring the fact that the poppy is worn internationally), the flipside is look at Irish violence against Britain both in the early 20th century, and in the late 20th century, and in Northern Ireland at present.

Yes, and I'm sure you can understand that people's opinions are often formed by what they actually see and experience, rather than what we are asked to believe. The British Army did not endear themselves to the Nationalist Population, and as such they are often remembered with revulsion rather than celebration.

It's this immediate memory which is most lasting, and which ultimately colours peoples view of the Poppy. It's not terribly hard to understand.

What do you think constitutes the Remembrance Day commemorations? Have you been to a Remembrance Day service in Ireland on the 11th of September? I have, and honestly, it was never a celebration of British militarism.

And what exactly would you constitute as a celebration of Military service?

Unless the Royal British Legion is inherently pacifist, then I would imagine it would be entirely supportive of all it's British veterans, regardless of what conflict they happened to be involved in.

From watching the Remembrance Day commemoration on television, I'm led to believe that it's a sombre affair. What difference this is likely to make to my own personal views, I'm entirely unaware.

By the by, I take issue to you claiming this has anything to do with southern unionism. Many people who support a 26 county republic at least, remember the dead at war on the 11th of November. The poppy has nothing to do with unionism. Bringing in that topic is disingenuous.

As I've mentioned before, the fact that the issue of the troubles in Northern Ireland continues to raise it's head indicates that the topic remains politically charged. This is best evidenced in Northern Ireland, where the iconography of Remembrance has been hijacked by Unionists and Loyalists for their own political ends.

Feathers · 31-10-2012 01:43AM

philologos wrote: »

1) A lot of Irish people do phrase Irishness in terms of a rejection of what is British, some on this thread.

I know they do, but you're giving out about it — so why do you then want me to do it?

philologos wrote: »

2) If you make claims about the British doing X, Y or Z in Ireland. Then I expect you to be honest and claim that much of that violence came from the Irish side also. If I can't expect you to be honest, there's no point in discussing this and expecting an accurate, objective and fair assessment of the entire conflict.

Of course it did. I'm not being 'dishonest', I'm just not discussing it. If we were talking about a charity that was giving money to former members of the Real IRA & their family, I'd mention it definitely.

But the topic isn't The Irish struggle for independence: Was X action by the British justified in light of Y action by the Irish; it's about wearing something emblematic of British military action, which gives financial support to its fallout & I feel gives some symbolic support to the actions themselves.

philologos wrote: »

3) It's not about reasons to not wear it. Quite frankly, I couldn't give a toss whether you do or not. It's when you make a silly reference to the poppy somehow glorifying British violence in Ireland that I look into Irish instigated violence. If you don't want the topic to come up, don't claim the poppy glorifies British violence in Ireland.

To be fair, the thread is about 'Would you wear a poppy? Yes/No'. If my answer is 'No', why wouldn't my posts be about reasons to not wear it?

To clarify, I didn't say the envisaged purpose of the poppy was to glorify war; I didn't say that to be Irish is to hate Britain; I didn't say that Ireland was blameless in any agression on this island in the past 100 years.

Just as a reminder, here's what I actually said:

I do not wear a poppy, as I don't want to support British occupations, historical or on-going, either financially or symbolically.

Not exactly hyperbolic. If you want to have a discussion about the nuances of such symbols in the public sphere, the media voice/agenda and how all this can affect the normalcy & perceived validity of war, great. Quite frankly, you couldn't give a toss what I think; but if you are going to debate it, would appreciate if you did it on what I actually said, rather than what you're reading into it.

pumpkin.pie · 31-10-2012 01:50AM

Is there anywhere you can even buy them over here? I've never seen anyone in Galway with them and I'd certainly wear one.

Nodin · 31-10-2012 01:58AM

philologos wrote: »

I honestly don't(.......) the Poppy.

Would you care to answer the question I put to you earlier?

Are you ok with the people involved with these conflicts and these incidents in particular receiving your cash?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...lagers-coverup

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world...ing-uk-apology

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ore-atrocities

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...detention-camp

This is the third time I've had to ask.

Jimoslimos · 31-10-2012 02:29AM

Sound of Silence wrote: »

As I've mentioned before, the fact that the issue of the troubles in Northern Ireland continues to raise it's head indicates that the topic remains politically charged. This is best evidenced in Northern Ireland, where the iconography of Remembrance has been hijacked by Unionists and Loyalists for their own political ends.

Exactly, nobody expects Unionists to embrace the tricolour - a flag which includes their Orange traditions. The poppy might not have been intended as a political symbol, but that is what it has undoubtedly become.

pumpkin.pie wrote: »

Is there anywhere you can even buy them over here? I've never seen anyone in Galway with them and I'd certainly wear one.

Make your own - it means as much to the memory of war dead as a bit of trademarked plastic from the RBL. Plus the money you save can be donated to far more worthy causes.

Heck it'd probably do more good in the Ugandan PM's bank account.

Japer · 31-10-2012 02:30AM

Nodin wrote: »

Would you care to answer the question I put to you earlier?

Are you ok with the people involved with these conflicts and these incidents in particular receiving your cash?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...lagers-coverup

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world...ing-uk-apology

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ore-atrocities

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...detention-camp

This is the third time I've had to ask.

Many millions of people have served in the armed forces. If it were not for the armed forces we would all be speaking german or russian by now. Picking out a few alleged wrongful incidents long ago is like pointing out a few criminals / law-brakers in the 300,000 odd strong public service and asking taxpayers are they happy to be giving them cash.

GRMA · 31-10-2012 02:36AM

It's a British nationalist symbol. I'm not a west brit so I won't be wearing one.

Don't forget it's not just about WW1, but even if it were I still wouldn't, the Irish were fighting for their freedom against the british at that time. Wearing a poppy is nothing less than spitting on their graves.

GRMA · 31-10-2012 02:37AM

Japer wrote: »

Many millions of people have served in the armed forces. If it were not for the armed forces we would all be speaking german or russian by now. Picking out a few alleged wrongful incidents long ago is like pointing out a few criminals / law-brakers in the 300,000 odd strong public service and asking taxpayers are they happy to be giving them cash.

If it werent for the British armed forces we wouldnt be speaking english

Nodin · 31-10-2012 03:13AM

Japer wrote: »

Many millions of people have served in the armed forces. If it were not for the armed forces we would all be speaking german or russian by now. Picking out a few alleged wrongful incidents long ago is like pointing out a few criminals / law-brakers in the 300,000 odd strong public service and asking taxpayers are they happy to be giving them cash.

"alleged wrongful incidents"? It was policy to deal with the Kenyans and Greeks that way. Or did they destroy those Foreign Office papers for the "lolz"

Do you think those colonies were "alleged wrongful incidents" too? Somebody get a red marker and colour in all those places for the craic?

getz · 31-10-2012 09:01AM

Nodin wrote: »

"alleged wrongful incidents"? It was policy to deal with the Kenyans and Greeks that way. Or did they destroy those Foreign Office papers for the "lolz"

Do you think those colonies were "alleged wrongful incidents" too? Somebody get a red marker and colour in all those places for the craic?

what ever the british did in the likes of kenya, india ect it does not seem to effect their fondness to embrace their colonial passed by wanting to be part of the commonwealth,that must be very upsetting for you,

Qualitymark · 31-10-2012 09:03AM

It's a British thing. The rest of Europe doesn't do this at all. Unknown.

philologos · 31-10-2012 10:19AM

Sound of Silence wrote: »

And what are these claims that I've made?

My argument essentially boils down to the fact that no one should feel obligated to wear a poppy for fear of being considered "narrow-minded". You might not feel that you're confronting my own personal choice, but it's heavily implied.

Again that's tripe. I don't care if you wear it or not. What I do object to is ignorance about the topic or claiming its anti-Irish. Every year on boards.ie we see the same nonsense trotted out time and time again.

Yes, and I'm sure you can understand that people's opinions are often formed by what they actually see and experience, rather than what we are asked to believe. The British Army did not endear themselves to the Nationalist Population, and as such they are often remembered with revulsion rather than celebration.

The republicans didn't much endear themselves to them or those who disagreed with them in Northern Ireland either. Not to mention a bomb campaign in central London, Guildford, Brighton and numerous other locations. The problem I have with your assessment is that it is one-sided and leaves much of the truth out.

It's this immediate memory which is most lasting, and which ultimately colours peoples view of the Poppy. It's not terribly hard to understand.

Considering it originated after WW1 due to a Canadian poet I think pulling a connection to the Troubles is a bit silly, not to mention that such an interpretation is one-sided.

And what exactly would you constitute as a celebration of Military service?

It's not a celebration it's mourning! At the Anglican remembrance service a key point is the futility of war.

Unless the Royal British Legion is inherently pacifist, then I would imagine it would be entirely supportive of all it's British veterans, regardless of what conflict they happened to be involved in.

It's to fund the servicemen who are in need of assistance. The Irish collection does the same if you look into it.

From watching the Remembrance Day commemoration on television, I'm led to believe that it's a sombre affair. What difference this is likely to make to my own personal views, I'm entirely unaware.

Your view seems to be based on a one-sided view of Irish history, so I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't make a difference.

As I've mentioned before, the fact that the issue of the troubles in Northern Ireland continues to raise it's head indicates that the topic remains politically charged. This is best evidenced in Northern Ireland, where the iconography of Remembrance has been hijacked by Unionists and Loyalists for their own political ends.

Nonsense. The fact it is dragged in is on the basis of ignorance as to what Remembrance Sunday / Remembrance Day is all about.

As I said already the day when Irish identity isn't based on what isn't British will be the day when we've put all this nonsense beyond us. A sentiment which is characterised in the remembrance, to move on from the past into a more stable future even if that is uncertain or unattainable.

philologos · 31-10-2012 10:26AM

GRMA wrote: »

It's a British nationalist symbol. I'm not a west brit so I won't be wearing one.

Don't forget it's not just about WW1, but even if it were I still wouldn't, the Irish were fighting for their freedom against the british at that time. Wearing a poppy is nothing less than spitting on their graves.

You mean that one Easter during WW1 a small militant group started a revolt in Dublin city centre with the majority of the population there disapproving of it?

Most if not all of the Irish push for independence / home rule was done in parliament in Westminster.

Jimoslimos · 31-10-2012 11:20AM

philologos wrote: »

The republicans didn't much endear themselves to them or those who disagreed with them in Northern Ireland either. Not to mention a bomb campaign in central London, Guildford, Brighton and numerous other locations. The problem I have with your assessment is that it is one-sided and leaves much of the truth out.

Don't know why Republican violence gets dragged into a debate about wearing the poppy. It's irrelevant. Not wearing the poppy doesn't make me a republican. However wearing one does lend support (financially at least) to current and ex-British army soldiers.

To me at least there are two reasons people choose to wear a poppy

1) To show a mark of remembrance for those who died in the World Wars
2) To show continuing support for British soldiers in current and recent conflicts.

Unfortunately given that the RBL control the image rights to the poppy and therefore proceeds from charity you cannot separate the two - that's what many people have a problem with

philologos wrote: »

You mean that one Easter during WW1 a small militant group started a revolt in Dublin city centre with the majority of the population there disapproving of it?

Most if not all of the Irish push for independence / home rule was done in parliament in Westminster.

Just because the general sentiment was against armed revolution doesn't mean the majority weren't against British rule.

philologos · 31-10-2012 11:33AM

When people bang on about British violence in Ireland, its inevitable that Irish violence in Britain will be brought up. The facts are it was a conflict of two sides.

I never said opposition to the 1916 Easter rising reflected opposition to a republic. That's why I mentioned the hard work that was done in parliament.

bobbysands81 · 31-10-2012 11:58AM

philologos wrote: »

When people bang on about British violence in Ireland, its inevitable that Irish violence in Britain will be brought up. The facts are it was a conflict of two sides.

I never said opposition to the 1916 Easter rising reflected opposition to a republic. That's why I mentioned the hard work that was done in parliament.

How dare the colonised have the cheek to fight back against their aggressors?

LordSutch · 31-10-2012 12:39PM

I think the Poppy should only be worn on TV in the week leading up to the 11th/ November!

What's really beginning to bug me in the last few years is the 'enforced' wearing of the Poppy on TV well before the week leading up to remembrance day. This year I saw a presenter on ITV with his poppy in his lapel before the 25th of October! This enforced display just devalues the true meaning of the symbol. Poppies just seem to be stuck on anybody and everybody who walks into any British TV studios nowadays < this is a hollow gesture to the remembrance of the fallen IMO.

And I say all this as somebody who wears a Poppy in Dublin every November. Dunno for how much longer though, as the elderly ladies who sell them in Dublin and countrywide are getting fewer and fewer as the years pass by. Obviously you can get a poppy at this time of year in any Church of Ireland/ Methodist or Preysbyterian Church (small contribution always welcome), but Poppy sellers on the streets are slowly becoming a thing of the past in the ROI.

old hippy · 31-10-2012 01:37PM

GRMA wrote: »

It's a British nationalist symbol. I'm not a west brit so I won't be wearing one.

Don't forget it's not just about WW1, but even if it were I still wouldn't, the Irish were fighting for their freedom against the british at that time. Wearing a poppy is nothing less than spitting on their graves.

Ah, the tired old "west brit" epithet. 100 years! 800 years! Bla bloody bla.

For every poppy fascist here in the UK, there is an equal amount of the opposite back home :rolleyes:

By wearing a poppy, should you so wish, it's honouring the sacrifice Irish men and women made in the fight against the gathering forces of darkness. Wearing one doesn't make you any less of an Irish person or suddenly a supporter of British imperialism.

And once again, I don't wear one.

seanhalpin · 31-10-2012 01:41PM

thecommietommy wrote: »

After all it's for a foreign army, I don't see anyone wearing an emblem for the French, American, Spanish army. Ok some say it's for charity for injured British soldiers, but surely if they join up it's up to the British govt to properly look after them when they are injured and not pestering people expecting charity ?

It wasn't a foreign army. At the time, it was the legitimate army of the state, that state being the UK of Great Britain and Ireland. HM forces was the the military of the whole UK.

The real question is why would someone NOT wear a poppy - i would say because they have been brainwashed by the deValera-ite clap-trap propaganda that passes for history in ireland's schools.

Why would an Irish person wear a poppy ?

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