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"The Origin of Specious Nonsense"

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  • #9152
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    mickrock wrote: »
    That all life forms descended from a single life form isn't a fact. It can't be proved.

    It is a fact, and has been proven.

    Let's make a case for one branch of the primate tree - Haplorhini. This branch of primates includes monkeys and apes (including humans). Now - if it were true that we all shared a common ancestor, there would be something genetically that would be visible within every single member of this tree, without fail. And there is.

    Every single member of the Haplorhini suborder has lost it's ability to self-synthesize vitamin C, unlike their distant relatives Strepsirrhini. Why have they lost their ability to produce vitamin C, and how do we know that they once had the ability to do so? Each member contains the pseudogene GLO. An enzyme which once served a function to produce vitamin C, but at some point in the past, the common ancestor for all Haplorhini lost it through mutations - and now must obtain vitamin from food sources opposed to self-synthesizing it.

    If we did not share a common ancestor, then this pseudogene would not be shared across the exact suborder of primates which we profess to share lineage with.

    Now seriously - get over it. You're the product of a billion years of evolution - act like it. Putting your fingers in your ears, screaming la-la-la while people present compelling evidence to you, only makes you look like an infantile child.


  • #9153
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    mickrock wrote: »
    You're being a bit slippery here.
    Any chance you'll be defining what you mean by "information" any time soon?
    Or explaining what you would accept as an increase in information?
    Or that you'll outline what you think the origin of biological diversity is?
    Or actually address Oldrnwisr's points?

    Wouldn't want people to think you're being slippery would you?
    mickrock wrote: »
    Yes, there are changes in populations. The length of finchs' beaks change and the colour of peppered moths change. They are facts.
    So what you're saying is that allele frequency changes over time?

    So you believe in evolution.


  • #9154
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    mickrock wrote: »
    You're being a bit slippery here.

    That reminds me, did you ever get around to defining 'infrmation'?


  • #9155
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    mickrock wrote: »
    You're being a bit slippery here.

    Yes, there are changes in populations. The length of finchs' beaks change and the colour of peppered moths change. They are facts.

    That all life forms descended from a single life form isn't a fact. It can't be proved.


    Slippery? Moi? I guess you oughta know, what with avoiding everyone's points.

    Anyway, just what exactly can't be proven? Is it that we can't prove that humans and chimpanzees share a common ancestor? Or maybe it's that homininae and ponginae didn't evidently arise from hominidae? Or maybe it's that primatomorpha didn't descend from euarchonta, or maybe euarchonta didn't arise from euarchontoglires? For your suggestion to have any merit there must be some point in our phylogenetic tree where everything breaks down. So where is it?

    Here I'll even give you a visual aid so you can point to the spot where evolution fails:

    tree_Feb15_150dpi.jpg


    Sorry for the large image but I need it to make my point.


  • #9156
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    mickrock wrote: »
    But the fact is that there are degrees of complexity in living forms which neo-Darwinism is supposedly able to explain so I'm just questioning whether the theory is up to the job of explaining the facts.
    Yes, the theory is up to explaining the facts. Posters here are up to explaining the facts. It's up to you whether you want to spend the ten minutes necessary to understand them.
    mickrock wrote: »
    Regarding the relationship between information and complexity how about: Information=Specified Complexity
    Not sure whether you got the note from the Discovery Institute, but William Dembski has abandoned the nonsense that is "Specified Complexity" and since funding was stopped for his "research center" which closed down following the catastrophe-that-was-the-Dover-judgement in 2005. And he's no longer promoting the idea of "specified complexity" even amongst creationists.

    Get with it, dude!


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  • #9157
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    robindch wrote: »
    Yes, the theory is up to explaining the facts. Posters here are up to explaining the facts. It's up to you whether you want to spend the ten minutes necessary to understand them.Not sure whether you got the note from the Discovery Institute, but William Dembski has abandoned the nonsense that is "Specified Complexity" and since funding was stopped for his "research center" which closed down following the catastrophe-that-was-the-Dover-judgement in 2005. And he's no longer promoting the idea of "specified complexity" even amongst creationists.

    Get with it, dude!
    Re-reg, sock puppet or troll. I simply can't make up my mind what he is.

    MrP


  • #9158
    sephir0th
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭sephir0th


    robindch wrote: »
    Not sure whether you got the note from the Discovery Institute, but William Dembski has abandoned the nonsense that is "Specified Complexity" and since funding was stopped for his "research center" which closed down following the catastrophe-that-was-the-Dover-judgement in 2005. And he's no longer promoting the idea of "specified complexity" even amongst creationists.

    Get with it, dude!

    What's the latest and greatest creationist/ID tactic?


  • #9159
    [-0-]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Re-reg, sock puppet or troll. I simply can't make up my mind what he is.

    MrP

    All of the aforementioned, surely.

    puppet3.s600x600.jpg


  • #9160
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    sephir0th wrote: »
    What's the latest and greatest creationist/ID tactic?

    This:

    Question Evolution - 15 Questions for evolutionists


    Warning: This document contains monumental stupidity and reading it may cause your eyes to bleed.


  • #9161
    DB21
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,715 ✭✭✭DB21


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    This:

    Question Evolution - 15 Questions for evolutionists


    Warning: This document contains monumental stupidity and reading it may cause your eyes to bleed.
    That **** Leaflet wrote:
    Question evolution

    But not our story about how an invisible man in the sky did it all!


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  • #9162
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    On the plus side, she who must not be named hasn't returned....


  • #9163
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    On the plus side, she who must not be named hasn't returned....

    Who dat?

    :confused:


  • #9164
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    sephir0th wrote: »
    What's the latest and greatest creationist/ID tactic?
    Hard to say really. The 2005 mauling received by the creationist movement in Dover, the imprisonment of "Dr" Kent Hovind on a variety of criminal charges and the hilarious bunfight that took place between AIG and CMI (producers of the oldrnwisr's ghastly PDF above) all contributed to a decline in mainstream creationism. This was also reflected in the funding ladled out to the likes of Dumbski and others. I suspect that organized skeptics have probably helped to contribute to this decline too, not to mention the recession in general and the decline in what you could charitably call "discretionary" (insane) spending. The decline in fundamentalist religion isn't helping either. Doctor-Doctor Ham's Creation "museum" seems to be doing reasonably well, but at this stage, its rubbishy exhibits and ridiculous claims are old hat indeed and his latest and greatest creation theme park may well have been shelved quietly after it was found out that the state was helping to fund it by means of a range of highly-suspicious tax breaks. So far as I'm aware, the DI is still supporting ID and the infamous Wedge Document, but I don't believe it's pushing it in any way.

    In general, the creationism movement's strategy hasn't evolved since the mid-noughties and it'll certainly need to if, like any good organism, it wants to stay alive.

    Nice to see them come unstuck on a point of evolution.


  • #9165
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Who dat?
    Her


  • #9166
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    robindch wrote: »
    Her

    Ah.

    Thought she was a he.


  • #9167
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Ah.

    Thought she was a he.

    I think Robin originally introduced the "J C is a girl" meme, presumably on the basis that nothing s/he says can be taken for granted as true.


  • #9168
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    robindch wrote: »
    Her

    No!!!
    Do not summon her!!


  • #9169
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    The Mad Hatter wrote: »
    I think Robin originally introduced the "J C is a girl" meme, presumably on the basis that nothing s/he says can be taken for granted as true.

    I tend to skim JC's 'contributions' as my projected life span only gives me another 39/40 years so feck reading that tripe - life really is too short.


  • #9170
    doctoremma
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    mickrock wrote: »
    A book full of random letters is complex but not specified.
    How can you tell? Because you can't read it?
    mickrock wrote: »
    A normal book is both specified and complex and so it carries a lot of information.
    Because you can read it?

    You are the detector of "specified information" and it goes without saying that this detection is ridiculously and unscientifically subjective. Passing "information" through a human filter, who is going to decide what makes sense and what doesn't is, for me, the major flaw (if not the only one) in ID hypotheses.

    There are probably more books on this planet that I can't read than I can. In some cases, say a particularly exotic language in a different alphabet, I would have NO idea if I was looking at a genuinely random assortment of letters or a translation of The Catcher In The Rye.

    I am an imperfect filter to define how much information is carried in such a text.


  • #9171
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    The Mad Hatter wrote: »

    I think Robin originally introduced the "J C is a girl" meme, presumably on the basis that nothing s/he says can be taken for granted as true.
    I'm really mixed up now.....


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  • #9172
    [-0-]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    JC was a girl? Awe man. I was CONVINCED it was that guy who wrote that ridiculous book this thread is named after.

    Now I'm upset. :(


  • #9173
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Yep, super-sad folks, but this thread has been going -- in one form or another, and across three forums -- for almost eight years with JC arguably earning the title of the world's longest-serving troll. Actually, "troll" isn't quite the right word, since I suspect she believes what she writes and while everybody else has learned loads from this thread and its predecessors, JC's cluelessness has been consistent to a genuinely amazing degree.

    226478.png


  • #9174
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    Cookie monster?


  • #9175
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    Cookie monster?

    A secret insight into the world of moderators I think(A constant supply of cookies). :pac: Damn, now i'm craving a cookie, somebody start baking..........


  • #9176
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    [-0-] wrote: »
    I was CONVINCED it was that guy who wrote that ridiculous book this thread is named after.
    While some posters have alleged that the two are in fact related, this thread has a fossil record that goes way, way back beyond John May's hilarious book.

    BTW, I have a signed copy at home which I bought for a tenner at the truly unforgettable launch.


  • #9177
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    robindch wrote: »

    226478.png

    Homosexual lawnmowers?????

    'Up hill gardening' reference perchance?


  • #9178
    [-0-]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    robindch wrote: »
    BTW, I have a signed copy at home which I bought for a tenner at the truly unforgettable launch.

    Dude! That's actually brilliant. I'm ridiculously envious. :pac:


  • #9179
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    A secret insight into the world of moderators I think(A constant supply of cookies). :pac: Damn, now i'm craving a cookie, somebody start baking..........

    *hides cookie crumbs and tries to look innocent*

    Why I just baked some bat shaped cookies but...oh no! Where have they gone??? The children/dogs/moderators must have eaten them. Bad children/dogs/moderators - BAD!

    Da-na, na-na,na-na, na-na - bat cookies, bat cookies, Bat Cook-ies.
    59622_10151302576779734_747338184_n.jpg


  • #9180
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Homosexual lawnmowers?????
    Talk about arriving late to the party! Nice try with the uphill gardening, but here's the actual reference:
    Some Gay wrote:
    Two men are driving down the interstate when one notices a sign that says "College of Logic 5 miles." Neither one knows what it means and are both curious. The two men take the exit to the college and the driver goes in to investigate. He quickly finds a professor to explain... Driver: "What does 'College of Logic' mean?" Prof: "Well, I can best answer your question by asking you a question, Do you own a Lawn mower?" Driver: "Yes, I do." Prof: "Well, then I can logically assume that you have a yard." Driver: "Yes, I have a very big yard." Prof: "Then I can logically assume that you have a house." Driver: "I have a very big house." Prof: "Then I can logically assume that you have a family." Driver: "I have a wife and two kids." Prof: "Then I can logically assume that you are heterosexual." Driver: "Yes Sir, straight as a board, always have been. I think I understand what this school is all about, thank you for your time." Then the driver heads back out to the car to continue on his way. When he gets back to the car, the passenger asks about the school... Passenger: "So, what's it all about?" Driver: "Well, I can best answer your question by asking you a question, Do you own a Lawn mower?" Passenger: "No." Driver: "Then you're a Homo!"


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  • #9181
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    [-0-] wrote: »
    Dude! That's actually brilliant. I'm ridiculously envious
    I wouldn't be too envious. But -- and my eyes mist over at this point -- that book launch. What an evening, just over two years ago:
    robindch wrote: »
    Right. Photos can wait.

    This was one weird, weird evening.

    I only decided to cycle up at quarter to seven from pearse street and things were already under way with a few people in the bar and almost nobody at all in the room downstairs where he was supposed to do the talk. I signed myself into the guest book as Charles Darwin, just after Abraham Lincoln did. The bouncer on the door was bemused by the whole thing. Back upstairs and outside the hotel, May was giving in interview in a stretch pink lomiusine to the "UK-based television crew" that was making a "documentary". There were large pink lip marks down the side of the limo and I'm sure they signified something, but I'm buggered if I know what.

    Back inside and a spectacularly badly-dressed up Darwin had arrived with four tits and a gorilla. These were photographed by a guy whom I suppose was being paid for by May, who was himself delivering a rant to a surprised-looking lady from the Irish Times.

    Time passed and a few more people came in, some of whom were familiar from various skeptical events around town (Hi, Steve * 2!) and I suppose around half seven things got going with around 35 people in the short-chaired room and May began a long rant about the usual stuff. Putting my finger in the air, I'd have said there were ten or fifteen family, friends and creationists and the rest were along for the hell of it.

    It was all predictable enough, though the atmosphere was lightened a lot by one well-known blogger who sat more or less underneath May's nose and who kept on breaking into fits of very infectious giggles every minute or two. A new Darwin, the gorilla and the four tits arrived in and May delivered a surreal lecture about perfect sperms, perfect penises and perfect vaginas, er, coming together to produce perfect babies with another dose of his "well, like, a baby isn't wrinkled" objection to evolutionary science. During one dramatic gesture, he almost took the head off one of the pair of breasts who was standing too close behind him.

    Somebody must have dropped upstairs to the bar and told them about the table full of free booze downstairs, since what I think was the entire contents of Buswell's bar arrived in over a ten minute period to being the total number of people up to maybe sixty or seventy.

    With the aircon off, it began to get quite heated and not just because some big guy arrived from somewhere, well oiled and waving a glass of wine around in the air and started a high-energy Q+A, then some mild heckling and ultimately him and May ended up in a full-on exchange of four-letter insults at the tops of their voices. Both had to be mildly restrained from going at each other. May then stoped the meeting, so everybody turned around and grabbed as much wine as they could from the forty or so bottles at the back. It took an hour for everybody to finish this, at which point, everybody evaporated back up to the bar upstairs.

    I bought a copy of the book -- hey, it's research! -- and I'd say about ten, max, other people did, leaving around fifty unsold in a pile on the desk beside the booze. I counted four creationists (I asked them) and I'd say that was about half of the total. Everybody else was there for free drink.

    Interesting fact from the night -- two people reported that John May used to be a Jehovah's Witness and in the early 1980's, lead a schism in which half of the JW's in Dublin left the organization.

    Quote from page one of the book:
    John May, Page 1 wrote:
    To undertake the extirpation of fond fictions from the mind is, I know, irrefragably fraught with explosive consequences. Therefore, I begin as I mean to finish, gently with simple explanations for complex concepts and hopefully to elevate reason and true science as a magnate to sanity, purpose and a future with hope.
    No, they are not misspellings -- they're verbatim.

    "The Origin of Specious Nonsense" is available, via his website, for fifteen euro from several large and almost completely full crates in John May's garage.


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