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"The Origin of Specious Nonsense"

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    #9272
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    Don't forget to define Information.


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    #9273
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    mickrock wrote: »
    I'm looking for specific examples of actual, observed mutations that have added genetic information.
    Why don't you try google? It's quite easy.

    If you're having a hard time finding it -- and I can't imagine how anybody could -- then google for the evolution of nylon-eating bacteria.


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    #9274
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    mickrock wrote: »
    I'm looking for specific examples of actual, observed mutations that have added genetic information.

    And you won't get (m)any examples until you define what "information" is in a genetic sense, or even what an "increase of information" is.

    In very simple terms (for your benefit):

    Genetic information encodes a phenotypic characteristic, say wing colour in moths. The "original" population of moths have a beige wing colour ("original" in quotation marks because we have no way of saying whether this wing colour is actually the "original" wing colour). We see a change in the wing colour gene in a subset of this population that causes them to have brown wings. This genetic change of information allows this subset of moths to invade and thrive in a new niche.

    How can we possibly say that the brown-winged moths have suffered a "loss" of genetic information?

    The Hox gene example above is a very good example of "gaining" information (if you want to use such terms). Duplication of this cluster provided the ensuing organisms a far larger set of patterning genes. Allow some time, some mutations and some natural selection, and we higher organisms now have a far greater genetic palette to direct an increasingly complex developmental programme.

    Every organism contains a lot of genetic information, some of it necessary, some of it redundant, some of it ripe for change. Evolution doesn't destroy or create information, it changes it, it co-opts it. A pseudo or ancestral gene might not function now but that doesn't preclude it from gaining function in the future. If a redundant gene is altered to gain a novel and useful function, does this constitute a "gain" of information? If so, try reading about nylonase.


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    #9275
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,230 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    mickrock wrote: »
    I'm looking for specific examples of actual, observed mutations that have added genetic information.

    Surely this shouldn't be too difficult, as an accumulation of these small increases in information is supposed to explain the increase in complexity from a bacteria to a horse.
    This is why I asked you to define your terms.

    If you don't people might start to think you don't actually have a definition for it and are simply using it as a weasel word like most creationists do.
    And avoiding oldrnwisr's points only makes it look exactly like that.

    So you should probably define what you mean by "information", give us an example of what you would consider an "increase" and then address oldrnwisr's post properly.


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    #9276
    Ziphius
    Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Ziphius


    mickrock wrote: »
    But a mutation in a Hox gene doesn't produce any new information.

    Instead it results in already existing information being switched on in the wrong place, causing harmful effects.

    My point was that the Hox genes have been replicated in the chordate lineage. Vertebrates have four sets of Hox genes whereas other animals only have one. The extra sets in vertebrates have evolved to serve different functions.

    There are many examples of gene duplication in vertebrates. For example the hedgehog family and the Wnt family in vertebrates have ben duplicated. This allows for the evolution of increasing complexity (though keep in mind that evolving systems don't have to get more complex, in many cases they become simpler).

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7579513

    From the paper above:
    "Gene duplication, followed by functional divergence of new genes, may be one class of mutation that permits major evolutionary change"

    http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/~rdmp1c/teaching/L4/Evolution/Session9/genomedup.pdf

    And from this paper:
    "Duplication of genes and entire genomes are two of the major mechanisms that facilitated the increasing complexity of organisms in the evolution of life)"


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    #9277
    mickrock
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭mickrock


    We have one example so far, the nylon-eating bacteria. Keep them coming.

    Where is the gain in information in this example? A mutation slightly alters the active site of an enzyme that the bacteria already has for eating a substance that is chemically similar to nylon.

    This is more an alteration of existing information rather than the gain of new information.


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    #9278
    mickrock
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭mickrock


    Ziphius wrote: »
    My point was that the Hox genes have been replicated in the chordate lineage. Vertebrates have four sets of Hox genes whereas other animals only have one. The extra sets in vertebrates have evolved to serve different functions.

    You're assuming that the complexity arose somehow by neo-Darwinian means.

    I was looking for more direct, observable evidence of evolution in action.


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    #9279
    [-0-]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    mickrock wrote: »
    We have one example so far, the nylon-eating bacteria. Keep them coming.

    Where is the gain in information in this example? A mutation slightly alters the active site of an enzyme that the bacteria already has for eating a substance that is chemically similar to nylon.

    This is more an alteration of existing information rather than the gain of new information.

    You still haven't defined information, mick.

    Why you so cryptic? :pac:


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    #9280
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Information (n.): a meaningless concept said by creationists to exist in genes, and to be incapable of increasing.


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    #9281
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    mickrock wrote: »
    We have one example so far, the nylon-eating bacteria. Keep them coming.

    Where is the gain in information in this example? A mutation slightly alters the active site of an enzyme that the bacteria already has for eating a substance that is chemically similar to nylon.

    This is more an alteration of existing information rather than the gain of new information.
    You really are going to have to try and define what you mean by "gain of information". Until we know how you are using such terms, it will be difficult to provide you with appropriate examples.

    In words, what are you thinking "gain of information" means? And how do we measure "gain of information"?

    If, for example, you mean "information being added to an existing genome", in a very physical sense, see the Hox genes above. If you mean a "gain in function", the example list will be very long.

    If, as I suspect, you mean "the acquisition of a gene for flying in a previously-terrestrial species of snail", you might want to buy a textbook....


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    #9282
    mickrock
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭mickrock


    doctoremma wrote: »
    If you mean a "gain in function", the example list will be very long.


    Ok, give some examples of specific mutations that have resulted in increased complexity by a gain in function.


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    #9283
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    mickrock wrote: »
    Ok, give some examples of specific mutations that have resulted in increased complexity by a gain in function.

    Acquisition of lactose tolerance by Northern Europeans, convergent evolution in African population:
    http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v39/n1/full/ng1946.html

    If you google "heterozygote advantage", you'll find many examples of beneficial mutations.

    And, of course, nylonase. Did you read the genetics of it?


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    #9284
    mickrock
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭mickrock


    doctoremma wrote: »
    Acquisition of lactose tolerance by Northern Europeans, convergent evolution in African population:
    http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v39/n1/full/ng1946.html

    So, a gene that all humans have and that used to be switched off in infancy is now switched back on in many populations.

    This is an adaptation but I'd hardly call it a gain in function. The mechanism was already in place to start with. Its switching back on can't be called an increase in information/complexity.


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    #9285
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,230 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    mickrock wrote: »
    So, a gene that all humans have and that used to be switched off in infancy is now switched back on in many populations.

    This is an adaptation but I'd hardly call it a gain in function. The mechanism was already in place to start with. Its switching back on can't be called an increase in information/complexity.
    What exactly can be called an increase in information/complexity?


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    #9286
    DB21
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,715 ✭✭✭DB21


    King Mob wrote: »
    What exactly can be called an increase in information/complexity?

    Ah here Mob, hardly fair to ask him for a proper, solid, fixed definition. How would he continue to move the goalposts then?


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    #9287
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    DB21 wrote: »
    Ah here Mob, hardly fair to ask him for a proper, solid, fixed definition. How would he continue to move the goalposts then?

    He could put them on tracks. Then they could be both 'fixed' and 'movable'.


    :pac:


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    #9288
    DB21
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,715 ✭✭✭DB21


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    He could put them on tracks. Then they could be both 'fixed' and 'movable'.


    :pac:

    Touché

    Then we could stop all this messing around, and get down to brass tacks.


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    #9289
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    mickrock wrote: »
    but I'd hardly call it a gain in function.
    Adaptation, fine.

    Human beings moving from being unable to digest lactose in adulthood to being able to digest lactose in adulthood ISN'T a gain of function?

    Please define "gain of function".


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    #9290
    Ziphius
    Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Ziphius


    mickrock wrote: »
    Ok, give some examples of specific mutations that have resulted in increased complexity by a gain in function.

    Sickle cell disease is a blood disease which occurs due to a single base substitution in the gene which codes for haemoglobin. Those with two copies of the mutation suffer from the disease, however those with only a single copy have do not have sickle cell disease in addition they have higher resistance to malaria than those who do not have the mutation.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_disease


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    #9291
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    DB21 wrote: »
    Touché

    Then we could stop all this messing around, and get down to brass tacks.

    More like brass monkeys.


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    #9292
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    Mickrock - here is a post I made on another forum some time ago. I suspect I have also posted it in this thread at some point. I'm trying to understand what people mean when they refer to "information".

    I work on two proteins, in two animal systems (humans, frogs).


    Protein A is very highly conserved - compared between frogs to humans, the amino acid sequence is exactly the same. Disease phenotypes tell us that small mutations (substitutions, small insertions or deletions) in Protein A are very deleterious to protein function.


    Now let's look at Protein B. When you compare the amino acid sequences of the frog to the human, you get around 40 % conservation - that means that 60/100 amino acids (across a protein of 1750 amino acids total) are different between frog and human versions. However, the function of the frog and human proteins is the same. In fact, I can substitute the human version into a frog and the animal develops completely normally.


    Now, this tells me that Protein B can tolerate a huge number of changes to its amino acid sequence and still be perfectly functional. In theory, I can change 1000/1750 amino acids in frog Protein B and it makes no difference.
    1. Comparing Protein B in frogs and humans, which amino acid sequence would you say is the "reference" version, the "correct" one?
    2. Would an amino acid change which made frog Protein B slightly more similar to human Protein B be regarded as a gain or loss of information?
    3. When thinking of protein B, how do we decide which of these radically different sequences contains the most "information"?


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    #9293
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    The Mad Hatter wrote: »
    Information (n.): a meaningless concept said by creationists to exist in genes, and to be incapable of increasing.
    Was going to google to see if Dumbski had ever defined "information", but stopped when this showed up:

    226256.png


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    #9294
    mickrock
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭mickrock


    It seems a lot here believe in neo-Darwinism despite the lack of evidence.


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    #9295
    General Relativity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 683 ✭✭✭General Relativity


    mickrock wrote: »
    It seems a lot here believe in neo-Darwinism despite the lack of evidence.

    tumblr_m4dwrjj69G1qknzn8o1_500.jpg


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    #9296
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    mickrock wrote: »
    It seems a lot here believe in neo-Darwinism despite the lack of evidence.

    Yawn.


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    #9297
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    I'm not sure if I am happy or sad to see this thread back in action. On one hand we've got some really well articulated posts by the likes of Ziphius and Oldrnwisr, which are great to read and good for learning things. On the other hand it makes me despair when I see the word 'Information' being bastardized in such a way.


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    #9298
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    :(


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    #9299
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    mickrock -
    mickrock wrote: »
    It seems a lot here believe in neo-Darwinism despite the lack of evidence.

    Soapboxing -- the continuous repetition of a single point of view without any attempt to engage in debate -- is explicitly prohibited by the Forum Charter.

    If you want to debate creationism versus evolution, this thread is the place to do it. Bear in mind, though, that it's a debate, not a soapbox.


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    #9300
    Doctor Jimbob
    Registered Users Posts: 7,634 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    mickrock wrote: »
    It seems a lot here believe in neo-Darwinism despite the lack of evidence.

    I think you'll find if you stop ignoring the evidence there's quite a lot of it.


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    #9301
    Improbable
    Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    mickrock wrote: »
    Ok, give some examples of specific mutations that have resulted in increased complexity by a gain in function.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2430337/


This discussion has been closed.
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