Choose paying back Mortgage or Choose Life?

downpatrick · 24-10-2012 10:08PM

Pottler wrote: »

I'd be gone, simple as. I'd register as Mr Potler in some far flung place and start over. Mistakes often happen on official forms, I'd be making one of those mistakes. Would I stay and pay? No, I honestly wouldn't, life is too short and when your dead you'll not hear the whinging..

But he doesn't even need to change identity, just live in england for a while and declare bankruptcy. Easy.

As long as his savings are nowhere near the 350K negative equity, its a no brainer

Pottler · 24-10-2012 10:20PM

downpatrick wrote: »

But he doesn't even need to change identity, just live in england for a while and declare bankruptcy. Easy.

As long as his savings are nowhere near the 350K negative equity, its a no brainer

So there's an answer - UK and wait, declare bankruptcy and start over. If it's good enough for Fleming et al, surely it's good enough for the smaller man?

Cee-Jay-Cee · 24-10-2012 10:26PM

davet82 wrote: »

i know someone in a similar situtation, they gutted the house sold everything copper piping the lot, stuck the keys in the letter box and got on a plane never to return.

i know they're happy now earning a good living else where in the world but will never be able to come back to Ireland.

Of course they can come back to ireland, its just that if they do return they will have no credit rating and will never get a mortgage or be able to work legitimately...so its not all that bad as there are feck all jobs anyway. Your friend is one of the lucky ones, they managed to get out and are now happy elsewhere.

Scanlas The 2nd · 24-10-2012 10:54PM

OP sell one of the houses and put it all on red. 50/50 chance of doubling your money and clearing your debts. If you lose just don't pay back the mortgage.

Or just sell the house and use the cash to pay off as much as you can of the mortgage.

Celly Smunt · 24-10-2012 11:01PM

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

OP sell one of the houses and put it all on red. 50/50 chance of doubling your money and clearing your debts. If you lose just don't pay back the mortgage.

Or just sell the house and use the cash to pay off as much as you can of the mortgage.

Pfft all on black,everything always all on black.

Bullseye1 · 24-10-2012 11:22PM

Bravo, I agree. Unfortunately because Cowan and Lenihan took the decision to nationalise the banks in this country large sections of the tax paying population are adverse to any debt forgiveness as it will "cost us, and we were not stupid enough to buy and weren't we very clever just renting". Yet anyone running their own business will tell you when you have a population on life support with less than €100 disposable income at the end of each month your chances of staying in business is alot tougher and as some are finding out not possible.

I have no doubt in the coming years we will see the biggest right down of debt in history.

funkhouser wrote: »

In any sane and functioning society debt like this, which has no chance of being repaid and should never have been lent in the first place, would be written down and the house sold or used by the bank for maximum return.

People who say "tough but you should remain in debt slavery and have no life ever again, you borrowed it so pay it back" (yawn) are extremely ignorant.

Incurring debt is a two way arrangement and a bank's profit is partially a return on the risk they have taken in lending the money. If I lend a car salesman on 45k a year 500,000 euro to build a house and sell it for profit, going against all previous banking norms, I've taken on a lot more risk than I should have. After it goes belly up; property market or car market crashes or he becomes terrible at selling cars and ends up in a job on 30k a year I wouldn't expect anybody to tell me: "tell him it's all HIS fault, he should live in one room, rent out all the other rooms and should give all his money to the bank for the rest of his working life". The law shouldn't. Society shouldn't. Creeps on internet message boards shouldn't. But they mostly do.

Both parties should take a hit. The more risk a bank takes the bigger hit it should take. Yes, we now own the banks and there are loads of extremely greedy people who won't now pay mortgages just 'cos but a general principle "when the borrower is clearly in great difficulty and the lending was reckless the bank should shoulder a lot of the burden, morally and financially" should really start being recognised by everyone. We'll still be in this situation as a country in 20 years if we don't.

People with impossible debt burdens are not criminals of a lower caste and should not be forced into life long debt slavery.

woodoo · 24-10-2012 11:30PM

What some here would want you to do is rent out both houses and live in a ditch. Work and use all available money (bar beans and bread) to pay off your sinful debts. Do that for the rest of your miserable days.. Why? Because you made a financial mistake.. in the eyes of the sanctimonious carries a punishment lasting longer than a murder or pedophilia conviction.

What i recommend you do is bide your time and then wash your hands of the debt by declaring yourself bankrupt.

mdebets · 24-10-2012 11:54PM

There is a way you could do it, but it takes some planning and a little while.

First you create a second identity (with the whole lot, fake birth certificate, passport, etc.) of an Irishman being born and living somewhere very remote (South America or Africa would be good, but preferable in a country with no Irish embassy). Then you write a will, giving everything to your new persona when you die, and take out a life insurance for accidental death (make sure that the sum covers your two houses an more, for your expenses) and make your new persona the beneficiary. Get a very distinctive ring or amulet, made from a metal of a very high melting point.

Get a corpse of your age, size and height, put it in your car and drive the car down a very high cliff (without you off course, but make sure that the ring or amulet is in the car, as you want to be identified by it. Also make sure that the teeth of the corps are destroyed enough, so that he can't be identified by it). Have some petrol stored near by, just in case the car isn't burning enough (but make sure too buy it in a way that you won't be identified as buying it later on).

Now you have to leave the country (you have to get a fake passport in a third name for that). Avoid the airport, but use a ferry with a motorbike (so you can wear a helmet without suspicion, so you don't show up on the cameras at the port).
You now travel to the country, in which your second persona is living and wait for the lawyer to show up, telling you that you have just inherited a large sum of money from a distant cousin.

Now you need to go to a plastic surgeon (South America might be a good idea for that, they have experience with this sort of things) and get your face altered, so that you are not recognisable any more.

Once you have fully healed, you go to the Irish embassy in the country, claiming to be a tourist, who has just lost his passport, but has his birth certificate with him, to get a new passport.

Now you are free to travel back and enjoy the money you have left from the insurance after all the house and the surgery has been paid off.

Some steps need some refining, but I leave that up to you.

OU812 · 25-10-2012 12:11AM

^ or... Have a devestating accidental fire in one of the properties & use the insurance to clear the mortgage. Much simpler.

K-9 · 25-10-2012 12:47AM

The banks lended you money based on the value of a property appreciating in value.

Go and rent op, hand the keys back. You've no assets of any value, nothing left to take of you.

You've 2 properties to maintain, give them back and let the banks worry about assets in negative equity.

K-9 · 25-10-2012 01:02AM

As for personal responsibiliy, the guy is trying to fulfill his obligations, there comes a time you go no more, like companies do with liquidation or examinership. Banks just get Government funding.

Once we start giving more protection to companies with limited liability protection and banks with Government, tax payer protection, and expect the ordinary citizen to pay back every penny, well...... that's an unjust society, regardless of your political outlook.

MadsL · 25-10-2012 07:54AM

K-9 wrote: »

The banks lended you money based on the value of a property appreciating in value..

Errm. Not really sure that that is is how it works.

Wacker The Attacker · 25-10-2012 08:08AM

Why didnt people choose life before they took out their mortgage?

Wacker The Attacker · 25-10-2012 08:10AM

K-9 wrote: »

The banks lended you money based on the value of a property appreciating in value.

Go and rent op, hand the keys back. You've no assets of any value, nothing left to take of you.

You've 2 properties to maintain, give them back and let the banks worry about assets in negative equity.

This what they call financial suicide.

The bank(s) will either (a) never lend op a rex for the rest of their natural lif and\or (b) chase them for the shortfall

Wacker The Attacker · 25-10-2012 08:11AM

K-9 wrote: »

As for personal responsibiliy, the guy is trying to fulfill his obligations, there comes a time you go no more, like companies do with liquidation or examinership. Banks just get Government funding.

Once we start giving more protection to companies with limited liability protection and banks with Government, tax payer protection, and expect the ordinary citizen to pay back every penny, well...... that's an unjust society, regardless of your political outlook.

When was life or society ever fair?

Wacker The Attacker · 25-10-2012 08:12AM

Pottler wrote: »

I'd be gone, simple as. I'd register as Mr Potler in some far flung place and start over. Mistakes often happen on official forms, I'd be making one of those mistakes. Would I stay and pay? No, I honestly wouldn't, life is too short and when your dead you'll not hear the whinging..

Running away wont fix your problems. It just transfers them to another jurisdiction

trodsky · 25-10-2012 08:31AM

TOOYOUNGTODIE wrote: »

you wont have money in your pocket.

your going on a one way ticket to 'instalment order' city. population you!!
They will get an order directly against you wages!!

only way to ''hand back the keys'' and have any chance of a life, is to leave this island.

Thats what I did. Left the house and left the country. Havent heard a word since. I'm sure theres a letter or 2 in the hallway

Wacker The Attacker · 25-10-2012 08:38AM

mariano rivera wrote: »

I wanted an Afterhours view on this as its not just a financial question but a lifestyle question

My story is this:

I built a house back in the boom years

My intention was to sell the house and with the profit have money towards buying my own house

Bank gives me a mortgage for a second house on the back off the house that i have yet to sell

Anyways, boom busts

Now left with two houses in negative equity

Approx. negative equity of 350k

I know, my own fault, my risk etc.

In the last 4 to 5 years, have done deals with the bank

Thankfully, I still have a job, that pays ok

But, I am skint, skint, skint with these payments

No money for anything out of the norm. have to watch every penny.

Unless I live until I am 200 years old, I have no chance of paying back this money

So, I am thinking of handing the keys back to the bank and rent some place and actually have a few bob in my pocket

Don’t care about credit rating or letters form the bank anymore

Just want start living again?

I'm sure you would have handed the profit back to the person you sold the house to so that they could start living again

K-9 · 25-10-2012 08:43AM

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

This what they call financial suicide.

The bank(s) will either (a) never lend op a rex for the rest of their natural lif and\or (b) chase them for the shortfall

a)The OP doesn't seem that worried about it, having money in his pocket seems more of an issue.

b) From what? The OP hasn't told us of any huge assets anywhere!

Madsl wrote:

Errm. Not really sure that that is is how it works.

Indeed, that isn't how it is supposed to work.

JimiTime · 25-10-2012 08:48AM

funkhouser wrote: »

In any sane and functioning society debt like this, which has no chance of being repaid and should never have been lent in the first place, would be written down and the house sold or used by the bank for maximum return.

People who say "tough but you should remain in debt slavery and have no life ever again, you borrowed it so pay it back" (yawn) are extremely ignorant.

Incurring debt is a two way arrangement and a bank's profit is partially a return on the risk they have taken in lending the money. If I lend a car salesman on 45k a year 500,000 euro to build a house and sell it for profit, going against all previous banking norms, I've taken on a lot more risk than I should have. After it goes belly up; property market or car market crashes or he becomes terrible at selling cars and ends up in a job on 30k a year I wouldn't expect anybody to tell me: "tell him it's all HIS fault, he should live in one room, rent out all the other rooms and should give all his money to the bank for the rest of his working life". The law shouldn't. Society shouldn't. Creeps on internet message boards shouldn't. But they mostly do.

Both parties should take a hit. The more risk a bank takes the bigger hit it should take. Yes, we now own the banks and there are loads of extremely greedy people who won't now pay mortgages just 'cos but a general principle "when the borrower is clearly in great difficulty and the lending was reckless the bank should shoulder a lot of the burden, morally and financially" should really start being recognised by everyone. We'll still be in this situation as a country in 20 years if we don't.

People with impossible debt burdens are not criminals of a lower caste and should not be forced into life long debt slavery.

If I was allowed a sig this big, this would be it! Well said sir/madam!

OU812 · 25-10-2012 08:49AM

To be honest a credit rating isn't anything to be all caught up about.

I'd say maybe 20% of the country has a bad one right now.

So you won't get a credit card or another loan. Not the worst thing in the world. There's prepay credit cards to tackle one of those issues & do you really want to be able to get into MORE debt? Bad credit rating seems like a helpful thing to be honest.

Scanlas The 2nd · 25-10-2012 08:49AM

I wouldn't pay it back, it's the wrong thing to do by I don't have a problem being immoral at times for my own sled interests.

donegal_road · 25-10-2012 08:54AM

mariano rivera wrote: »

I wanted an Afterhours view on this as its not just a financial question but a lifestyle question

My story is this:

I built a house back in the boom years

My intention was to sell the house and with the profit have money towards buying my own house

Bank gives me a mortgage for a second house on the back off the house that i have yet to sell

Anyways, boom busts

Now left with two houses in negative equity

Approx. negative equity of 350k

I know, my own fault, my risk etc.

In the last 4 to 5 years, have done deals with the bank

Thankfully, I still have a job, that pays ok

But, I am skint, skint, skint with these payments

No money for anything out of the norm. have to watch every penny.

Unless I live until I am 200 years old, I have no chance of paying back this money

So, I am thinking of handing the keys back to the bank and rent some place and actually have a few bob in my pocket

Don’t care about credit rating or letters form the bank anymore

Just want start living again?

sympathies are with you OP. You only get one life, I'd be out of here if I were you. This country cant sustain the level of debt that it is carrying, something will have to give sooner or later.

Seaneh · 25-10-2012 09:42AM

mariano rivera wrote: »

I wanted an Afterhours view on this as its not just a financial question but a lifestyle question

My story is this:

I built a house back in the boom years

My intention was to sell the house and with the profit have money towards buying my own house

Bank gives me a mortgage for a second house on the back off the house that i have yet to sell

Anyways, boom busts

Now left with two houses in negative equity

Approx. negative equity of 350k

I know, my own fault, my risk etc.

In the last 4 to 5 years, have done deals with the bank

Thankfully, I still have a job, that pays ok

But, I am skint, skint, skint with these payments

No money for anything out of the norm. have to watch every penny.

Unless I live until I am 200 years old, I have no chance of paying back this money

So, I am thinking of handing the keys back to the bank and rent some place and actually have a few bob in my pocket

Don’t care about credit rating or letters form the bank anymore

Just want start living again?

Where do you live and where do you work?

IF you live close enough to the boarder I'd recommend renting a flat on the otherside of it for the next 6 months, transfer all your bank accounts, bills, tv, phone, everything to that address and then file for bankruptcy in the uk, filing south of the boarder is ****ing horrendous and punitive and honestly a bit of a pisstake, file over the boarder and you will be treated much fairer.

Other option is to rent both properties out at just enough to cover the repayments, and then just rent a smaller gaff yourself that you can afford from your wages and live like everyone else.

That's my advice anyway.

Wacker The Attacker · 25-10-2012 10:25AM

K-9 wrote: »

a)The OP doesn't seem that worried about it, having money in his pocket seems more of an issue.

b) From what? The OP hasn't told us of any huge assets anywhere!

Indeed, that isn't how it is supposed to work.

The OP's gamble has backfired. Time for him to face up to his responsibilities. The fact that he has no money in his pocket doesnt entitle him or anyone else to a free pass.

For every instance of reckless lending that exists in Ireland there is a reckless borrower.

steve9859 · 25-10-2012 10:57AM

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

The OP's gamble has backfired. Time for him to face up to his responsibilities. The fact that he has no money in his pocket doesnt entitle him or anyone else to a free pass.

For every instance of reckless lending that exists in Ireland there is a reckless borrower.

A very self righteous post. If the alternative is to live in a ditch paying off the banks for the rest of your life, then I would certainly look get out.

The OP will not get rewarded by you, the State or anyone else for being a hero. Rather they will just consign themselves to a pretty miserable life. You only live once, and you have to look after number one, 'cause no-one else is going to.

So how about you imagine yourself in their shoes. Are you so sure that you would be the martyr in their situation?

K-9 · 25-10-2012 11:06AM

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

The OP's gamble has backfired. Time for him to face up to his responsibilities. The fact that he has no money in his pocket doesnt entitle him or anyone else to a free pass.

For every instance of reckless lending that exists in Ireland there is a reckless borrower.

He'll be handing the keys back, it isn't as if he's profiting from it and he has reached deals with them previously.

The guy could be paying back a mortgage for 30 years.

tipptopper · 25-10-2012 11:11AM

Lord jaysus there is some amount of arseholes on this site. You’d swear none of you ever made a mistake in your lives. So the op over borrowed, big swinging mickey. Ye wasn’t the first to do it, he won’t be the last.

Some posters here saying if he runs he’ll never be able to return to Ireland, bullsh1t.
I left Ireland 5 years ago in a lot of debt. I went to live in England and started a new life, got a good job and over time was able to build a credit rating to buy a house for myself. I never forged documents to change my ID, I am the same person as I was at home only in a different country.

It took me a long time to get on my feet, when I left I was suicidal and will openly admit that. Several times I was close to ending it all. I was lucky enough to meet a lass who helped me get back on my feet(emotional support wise).
In the first 3 years over here, I got 3 letters from the bank I owed money to (my home address) and that was it. None of them threatening I might add.

I contacted them when I was in a fit state emotionally to deal with what I had ran from and from my experience, it seemed that If I hadn’t contacted them they certainly weren’t in any hurry trying to recoup the money.

I was lucky enough in that I had a bit of land and sold it to pay back my debt but for posters to suggest banks will follow you to the end of the earth is total bull sh1t. In the early years before I had repaid the money I went home several times and never once was a garda at the ferry to arrest me.

Op, do what you think is right. People on here can spout whatever sh1t they want, they’ve yet to make a mistake in life so they can’t be judged.
Your debt is just going to be another one in a long line left by seanie fitz and his likes.
Some will run and leave the debt, some will pay it back, whatever you do is up to you, best of luck.

Emeraldy Pebbles · 25-10-2012 11:37AM

Deleted User wrote: »

The whole I built a house to sell and use the profits to build my own house is one of the most ridiculous things that people do.

It's straight-up gambling. Except that for some reason, people always expect they'll win.

jackal · 25-10-2012 11:41AM

Just hold on for a while longer and take advantage of the new bankruptcy legislation. You will be fúcked for a few years and your credit history will be muck, but you will get a fresh start.

No point continuing this "extend and pretend" mentality. A couple of big expenses and you are going to fall behind on the mortgage and get hopelessly under water on the debts.

The banks will have to engage soon with people who are simply looking at a miserable life paying off a debt at the expense of everything else. Its not realistic. The banks have been given provisions for bad loans, time to start using them.

Choose paying back Mortgage or Choose Life?

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