Do you Speak Irish?

An Coilean wrote: »

This is compleatly circular reasoning, Government failed to allow Irish speakers to interact with the Government through Irish, Therewfore they were forced to speak English, therefore the Government should force Irish speakers to speak English.

That's not correct. Your parents forced you to speak English, not the government.

Now you're trying to force English-speaking government officials to speak with you in Irish when you already have the ability to speak to them in their native language. That's just being awkward and creates unnecessary expense (not to mention stress on the unfortunate officials) to satisfy your cultural vanity.

An Coilean wrote: »

you are suggesting that it should be public policy to force Irish speakers to speak English.
No thank you.

I have not suggested any such policy. I have deplored the many laws imposing Irish on non-Irish speakers.

If Irish speakers wish to speak Irish, they should do so while accepting the reality that their fellow citizens speak English.

opti0nal wrote: »

That's not correct. Your parents forced you to speak English, not the government.

I am not talking about myself personally. The Government failed to provide services in Irish in areas where Irish was spoken, so those Irish speaking communities were forced to use English when interacting with the state.

Now because those communities also have English, they should be forced to speak English by the state.

Circular nonsence.

Now you're trying to force English-speaking government officials to speak with you in Irish when you already have the ability to speak to them in their native language. That's just being awkward and creates unnecessary expense (not to mention stress on the unfortunate officials) to satisfy your cultural vanity.

I am not suggesting that anybody be forced to speak Irish, that is pure bullshít.
There is a difference between expecting to be able to avail of government services in Irish, and forcing individual officials to speak Irish.

You are all for choice when it is for English speakers, but when it comes to Irish speakers its just being awkward and cultural vanity.
Quite hyprocitical, don't you think?

I have not suggested any such policy. I have deplored the many laws imposing Irish on non-Irish speakers.

If Irish speakers wish to speak Irish, they should do so while accepting the reality that their fellow citizens speak English.

There are no such laws, you're just making stuff up now. Show me any law, just one, that forces any non Irish speaker to speak Irish.

An Coilean wrote: »

Now because those communities also have English, they should be forced to speak English by the state.

But the people there already speak English and there are no laws requiring them to speak English?

An Coilean wrote: »

I am not suggesting that anybody be forced to speak Irish, that is pure bullshít.

Glad to hear it. So you're against compulsory Irish lessons for children? You're against forcing local authorities in English-speaking areas to erect totally unnecessary Irish-language signage?

An Coilean wrote: »

There is a difference between expecting to be able to avail of government services in Irish, and forcing individual officials to speak Irish.

Until an Irish speaker goes into a public office and demands to speak in Irish with, say, a roads engineer or an expert on family law?

An Coilean wrote: »

You are all for choice when it is for English speakers, but when it comes to Irish speakers its just being awkward and cultural vanity. Quite hyprocitical, don't you think?

For English speakers, it's not a matter of vanity that they speak English, it's a matter of fact. It's their native language. For Irish speakers, it's merely a matter of choice that they choose not to speak their native English.

An Coilean wrote: »

There are no such laws, you're just making stuff up now. Show me any law, just one, that forces any non Irish speaker to speak Irish.

Ok, so, the Official Languages Act: ...

(4) A person who fails or refuses to comply with a requirement under this section or who hinders or obstructs the Commissioner in the performance of his or her functions under this section shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €2,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or both.

That looks a teensy bit compulsory, don't you think?

opti0nal wrote: »

But the people there already speak English and there are no laws requiring them to speak English?

So you are saying that if the Government provides a service in an Irish speaking area, and refuses to make that service available in Irish, ie, no staff have Irish, none of the forms or information about that service etc are available in Irish, people are not forced to use English?

You're against forcing local authorities in English-speaking areas to erect totally unnecessary Irish-language signage?

Ok, so a sign is erected in Irish, or as is usually the case, bilingually, who exactally is forced to speak Irish?

Until an Irish speaker goes into a public office and demands to speak in Irish with, say, a roads engineer or an expert on family law?

Ok, so, the Official Languages Act: ...That looks a teensy bit compulsory, don't you think?

I don't thin'k you really understand the OLA, which is a shame, the way you constantly bang on about it.

Take your local moter tax office for example. Under the OLA, anyone is entitled to conduct their business with it through Irish, that dose not mean that should someone walk up to the counter, they can demand that the person behind the counter speak Irish to them.

What the OLA does provide for is that each public body, in this case your local County Council, must organise an Irish language scheme and agree it with the office of An Comisinéir Teanga, where by it improves the range of services it offers over a period of time.
When it comes to the moter tax office, part of the scheme where by that office is expected to provide services in Irish might be identifying Irish speakers already working in that section who can provide that service, people in that section may voulenteer to take classes to improve their Irish so as to be able to provide that service, or Irish speaking staff from other sections could be moved to the Moter tax section to provide that service.
Forms, information etc would also be translated and provided to those that want them.

Should someone walk in off the street looking to use Irish, they can expect that forms, information etc be provided in Irish, they can expect that there be a member of staff be able to deal with them through Irish, but that can not force any individual member of staff to speak Irish.

Should someone look for such a service and in reality it is not there, as happens so often, they can make a complaint to the Office of an Comisinéir Teanga who can investigate the complaint, again An Comisinéir can not force any individual to speak Irish, nor can he impose a fine or imprisonment on anyone for not speaking Irish.

What he can do is investigate the complaint and if it is found that someone in the motor tax office is trying to hinder that investigation, or if a scheme is agreed and it is found that someone in the Motor Tax office is obstructing its proper implementation, then they can be fined or imprisoned.

Its the same system as is in use with the Ombudsmans office in relation to other kinds of complaint about public bodies.

There is no provision in the OLA for forcing any individual to speak Irish.

To suggest otherwise is simply false.

For English speakers, it's not a matter of vanity that they speak English, it's a matter of fact. It's their native language. For Irish speakers, it's merely a matter of choice that they choose not to speak their native English.

What about native Irish speakers?

And this is about choice, you are all for choice for English speakers, yet seek to deny choice to Irish speakers, hypocritical.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I have a big problem with this. I along with many other students was forced to learn Irish as far as the leaving cert. It's utterly ridiculous in this day and age that students be coerced into learning any language against their will. And don't even try to compare learning a foreign (in this sense foreign as in not native) language to the literary or numerical skills offered by English and Maths. Both of them are x1000 times more important then learning the "cupla focal".

Thats fine, but if you don't mind I really dont want to discuss that topic, its been done to death many many times.

Whatever about government agencies you can't force companies to provide services in Irish. Nor should they, if nothing else it's economically inefficient.

Force? You could in theory, they want to include private companies under the language act in Wales, Private companies are covered under language leglislation in Canada. They're not covered by legislation here though.

You can pressurise them though, and some companies find using Irish can be a usefull part of their marketing strategy.

I don't speak it, but would love to learn...

I learnt the counties fairly quickly. I could work them out in English, but would have to ask my husband how to pronounce them properly. I could count a bit by watching the kiddies programmes on TG4.

It's on my bucket list of things to do!