The root of the problems with Irish football

chopperbyrne · 23-10-2012 02:22PM

The root of the problems with Irish football is the FAI.

bohsman · 23-10-2012 02:28PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Maybe those lads need to be sneered at and looked down on for not sticking with their local team and league? That'll help build a nice successful league that people want to see.

Or is it only fans that are not allowed do as they please?

It's clearly people like you sneering at people for daring to watch **** football rather than the other way around. I'll happily watch any standard of football from a game in the park to the EPL. You'll be hard pushed to find more than a handful of people that don't follow foreign leagues as well as their own.

kitakyushu · 23-10-2012 03:00PM

My own view on those figures.

There is a approx 350 league games in an LOI season so even if every single one those 200k had
gone to a LOI match instead the crowd would still only be up by about 550 on average. Appreciable but not world changing.

€100m spent on football in this country would transform the game here beyond all recognition. However, just because those 200k have spent that much to facilitate their cross channel experience doesn't mean the game in this country has lost that money.

Finally, as has been mentioned a fair chunk of those 200k are lads away for the weekend (and also a fair chunk of bandwagoners/glory hunters too imho) who wouldn't even go to an LOI game anyway even if the country was on lockdown on the LOI was the only league you could watch.

I'm pro LOI but contrary to how it may seem I don't think those figures represent any major loss (either in attendances or revenue).

Fr Tod Umptious · 23-10-2012 03:01PM

There is more than one root of the problem.

In no particular order

1. The British leagues - The LOI exists in a tiny market right next to a huge market with two leagues that has been strong of over 100 years.
2. The British media - Again we live in a small media market and thus also consume a large chunk of British media, which cover the aforementioned leagues extensively.
3. Location of teams - People who do not come from areas that have, or traditionally have had, LOI teams do not feel an affinity to the legaue and the teams in it, the same people do naturally however feel an affinity to out national team.
4. Perceptions - The grounds are s**t, the quality of the game is s**t etc, some of these perceptions are valid other no so.
5. The running of the league - There is a perception that the league is poorly run and thus peopel are not attracted to it beacuse the club they decide to follow may be out of business next week.

Guy:Incognito · 23-10-2012 03:03PM

bohsman wrote: »

It's clearly people like you sneering at people for daring to watch **** football rather than the other way around. I'll happily watch any standard of football from a game in the park to the EPL. You'll be hard pushed to find more than a handful of people that don't follow foreign leagues as well as their own.

People like me? If you can find one post of mine from the last 10 years where I looked down on anyone for supporting the LOI your doing well. My only issue on the subject has every been the attitude of LOI supporters belittling others for their choice.

Go watch whatever you want, where you want and leave others to do the same.

There's nothing wrong with promoting the LOI and trying to get more bodies in the turnstiles. There's everything wrong with the attitude that your somehow better than someone else for choosing the LOI or that other have to choose the LOI. You don't have to go any further than this thread to find examples of the latter.

Ares · 23-10-2012 03:05PM

I was two LOI games and to be quite frank I'd never go again.

First off the quality is second rate, really, really poor. The Oscar Traynor cup is much better to watch, local players with a real pride for where they're from battling it out to be the best in Ireland. Wonderful stuff.

The games I attended, Shels vs Drogheda and Shels vs St Pat's, I felt extremely unwelcome, as if I was tresspassing on people's territory. Maybe it has something to do with Shelbourne itself, I don't know. I understand the Shelbourne has always been a working class club, perhaps that's why there was an unwelcome feeling.

Also the quality of football in England is just so much better. Also you can go away for the weekend with your friends to a cosmopolitan English city enjoying, seeing a few tourist sites, a match and having a few beers. You just don't experience that going to Athlone on a Friday evening.

Until the LOI clubs upgrade their facilities then I don't see why people would travel to watch LOI. Why would you go 45 minutes in your car to a delapidated stadium to watch second rate action on a Friday night when one could watch a good Championship match on Sky from the comfort of your own sitting room. In reality, its an absolute no brainer.

Maybe when clubs stop going to the wall and the LOI clubs get their collective act together financially we might see some of the improvements required. Hopefully soon. As it would be a shame to have the Irish clubs continually plod around European backwaters getting knocked out in the qualifying rounds of the Europa League and Champions League.

bohsman · 23-10-2012 03:10PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

People like me? If you can find one post of mine from the last 10 years where I looked down on anyone for supporting the LOI your doing well. My only issue on the subject has every been the attitude of LOI supporters belittling others for their choice.

Go watch whatever you want, where you want and leave others to do the same.

There's nothing wrong with promoting the LOI and trying to get more bodies in the turnstiles. There's everything wrong with the attitude that your somehow better than someone else for choosing the LOI or that other have to choose the LOI. You don't have to go any further than this thread to find examples of the latter.

Agreed. One or two people on this forum sneer at people for watching Irish footie and one or two loi fans sneer at English fans. Hadn't noticed it happening in this thread though, plenty of LOI fans myself included listed the usual replies from EPL fans at the start of the thread though. This exact thread was done less than a year ago.

As for your actual question I'm always delighted to see Stephen Ward (and Avery John while he was still playing) doing well. Don't care too much for McClean for his gesturing to Bohs fans after scoring a few years ago but in general I like to see players go on to do well after leaving the league. Would be delighted to see some Bohs fans make it to the top.

applehunter · 23-10-2012 03:41PM

I hate being surrounded by people with Cork accents*.

edit : *a bit outdated but was a line from prominent "wanker" radio personality down in here back in 98/99.

gimmick · 23-10-2012 04:02PM

Ares wrote: »

I was two LOI games and to be quite frank I'd never go again.

First off the quality is second rate, really, really poor. The Oscar Traynor cup is much better to watch, local players with a real pride for where they're from battling it out to be the best in Ireland. Wonderful stuff.

The games I attended, Shels vs Drogheda and Shels vs St Pat's, I felt extremely unwelcome, as if I was tresspassing on people's territory. Maybe it has something to do with Shelbourne itself, I don't know. I understand the Shelbourne has always been a working class club, perhaps that's why there was an unwelcome feeling.

Also the quality of football in England is just so much better. Also you can go away for the weekend with your friends to a cosmopolitan English city enjoying, seeing a few tourist sites, a match and having a few beers. You just don't experience that going to Athlone on a Friday evening.

Until the LOI clubs upgrade their facilities then I don't see why people would travel to watch LOI. Why would you go 45 minutes in your car to a delapidated stadium to watch second rate action on a Friday night when one could watch a good Championship match on Sky from the comfort of your own sitting room. In reality, its an absolute no brainer.

Maybe when clubs stop going to the wall and the LOI clubs get their collective act together financially we might see some of the improvements required. Hopefully soon. As it would be a shame to have the Irish clubs continually plod around European backwaters getting knocked out in the qualifying rounds of the Europa League and Champions League.

There are bad games in every league. There are teams who are harsh on the eyes in every league.

What facilities do you want? This comes up again and again and I never understand it. Its not like there is a drip on overhead in all parts of all grounds and you have to sit in broken seats with rats running under foot. Apart from some of the very finest handful of stadiums there is a certain level of discomfort in going to a game.

As for the no brainer of watching some championship match on telly or going to a game, you are right. Ill go to the game every time.

TV has spoiled Irish people. Then these same people expect a pat on the back when they go to an international game,or their one game on the mainland every year.

bullvine · 23-10-2012 04:09PM

I'm intrigued by this argument, had a discussion with 4 other lads from work just now. None of them go to games but have in the past. We've decided we'll go to a LOI match next season and see for ourselves.

I told them to slag the standard is not a good enough excuse, as other leagues with a worse standard seem to be doing well, no one seems to have a definitive answer to why its so poorly watched. In our discussion we agreed the following:

-The grounds aren't welcoming and feel intimidating and you feel out of place going to watch a game there.
-Advertizement is also a big issue, the average football fan who watches the premier league doesn't know the Irish games are on most of the time.
-Too many clubs in the Dublin area doesn't help, if they took a leaf from Rugby's book and had provincial teams it might help and entered into a Celtic League. (Never happen though)!

gimmick · 23-10-2012 04:28PM

The too many clubs in the Dublin area does not really wash either. Between Shells, Shams, SPA, UCD and Bohs, if they were all at home I doubt their combined attendence would be any better than 8000. 10000 at a push. Thats approx 1% of the population of Dublin. Thats not because there are too many clubs, it is because people do not care enough.

MRPRO03 · 23-10-2012 04:30PM

The 'so-called football fans' that state something to this effect 'the league is poor quality that's why I do not go games on a regular basis'' are just giving an excuse to support a bigger club with star names because they are hyped up by the media and easily fooled Irish sheeple will follow it, the proof is there. Who are most followed teams in Ireland?, we see that Man Utd, Liverpool and Celtic are surprisingly top of the list, why?, because they are successful, not because the 'fans' have a connection with them more than their local/nearest team.

Some would say that Liverpool are not as successful as they were and 'fans' may use to back up their support of them, but the real reason is the parents of those that followed Liverpool in the 70s & 80s, they influenced their children and then they influenced their children.

Football is not about the quality, people in Ireland have got to get this thought out of their heads. It is about one area against another area, how is supporting a foreign team representing you and your locality, no fan of a foreign team can answer that, no matter how hard they try. The only time this is ignored is when the Irish National Team plays. We will never win anything, but still the Aviva/Lansdowne is always full whatever the quality of the team.

There is no team in my area. A very common sentiment from these 'fans'. If you give out about this as a reason, Setup a team, and be forever remembered as the founder of a club and do the things that you give out about.

One final thought for the moment, lets use Cup football as an example. We seen in all leagues, that the smaller clubs get the opportunity to play the bigger clubs. Why should these smaller clubs exist, cause the reason foreign fans they follow the big teams is the quality of football. The reason is, they are representing the their area and locality, something that many 'Irish fans' will never understand.

We seen recently when St Pats played a top German team in Hannover, and the attendance was a bit disappointing despite a quality German team playing. Why were the so called 'fans' who only watch quality football at the game.

Lucan Bohs · 23-10-2012 04:41PM

Ares wrote: »

I was two LOI games and to be quite frank I'd never go again.

First off the quality is second rate, really, really poor. The Oscar Traynor cup is much better to watch, local players with a real pride for where they're from battling it out to be the best in Ireland. Wonderful stuff.
.

Bohs have a mainly amateur team with a few actual Bohs fans in the team so that excuse doesn't wash.

If the quality is "really, really poor" then why have I seen McClean, Kevin Doyle and the rest of the players in the long list of ex Loi who have been sucessfull in my time as going yo LoI matches?

23-10-2012 04:51PM

Lucan Bohs wrote: »

If the quality is "really, really poor" then why have I seen McClean, Kevin Doyle and the rest of the players in the long list of ex Loi who have been sucessfull in my time as going yo LoI matches?

I bet they also played at under-12 level at some point, does that mean that level is as high quality?

gimmick · 23-10-2012 04:56PM

I think we could even pick an LOI XI from the last few years which would make up a ROI first XI and it would not be that shabby a aside.

Pj! · 23-10-2012 04:58PM

joker77 wrote: »

Irish soccer fans spent €100m in UK

If you had a business that was performing poorly would you blame the customers?
The product is sh1t. Full stop. Make it better and people will come.

CSF · 23-10-2012 05:00PM

The root of the problems with Irish football have been portrayed perfectly in some of the attitudes in this thread.

The FAI are just an easy scapegoat for people's laziness.

CSF · 23-10-2012 05:01PM

Pj! wrote: »

If you had a business that was performing poorly would you blame the customers?
The product is sh1t. Full stop. Make it better and people will come.

I was under the impression that football was a sport, not a product. Not in the Premiership of course, but elsewhere.

Coillte_Bhoy · 23-10-2012 05:04PM

Davidth88 wrote: »

Guys, Have to put a disclaimer in her , I am English , living in Ireland for 12 years .

I have been to quite a number of LOI games , all over the country from Cork to Dundalk .

You have to think of the scale of things , look at the current leaders in the Championship , Sligo , this is a town of what ... about 20-22 k people ? It's a large ' catchment ' area , but I find that Counties are very tribal , can you see people from Mayo/Leitrim or whatver supporting Sligo Town in any numbers ?

So that limits the attendances hugely .

Dublin is a city of what , about 1 million if you bring in the outlaying areas , it has what , 5 clubs ( or six if you include Bray which for all purposes is within the Dublin Metro area ) competing for that crowd , that's a city slightly larger than Sheffield .....

Add to this that clubs appear / disappear / change names etc , so local people feel very little connection to their local club , I would lay money if you asked 100 people in say Crumlin to name their local club 90 would struggle.

What I would do .

Get rid of the LOI and the Irish League , combine them and reduce the number of clubs to a league similar to the SPL,

I also think it does not help that football is played during the summer here so is competing against other sports ( namely GAA of course ), what's the history behind that ?

Have to disagree with you there. Plenty of goodwill in Mayo towards Sligo Rovers and i know few lads from towns in the north of the county who go to games. used to go myself but not so much lately. There is potential there, Conversely when galway were going reasonably well they drew a significant proportion of their support from South Mayo

The_Kew_Tour · 23-10-2012 05:07PM

You could write a book on the roots of the problem to be honest.

Owen_S · 23-10-2012 05:10PM

I went to see Man Utd play in the Champions League for about €80-90(travel, ticket and food included here). It would cost me close to €50 to go and watch the closest Airtricity League Premier Division team. Although it's not their fault that Bus Eireann is so expensive, there is simply no competition there for me between attending a LOI match and a Champions League match.

TerryTibbs! · 23-10-2012 05:19PM

Des wrote: »

I don't live close enough to an Irish football ground to support an Irish team, but see no problem with flying to the mainland to support a British team, like Celtic or Newcastle, which are further away.

It takes me an hour to get to my closest airport, to wait for an hour to get on a plane. My nearest LoI ground is a half hour away by car though.

*****************************

Des wrote: »

I wento a game once and it rained, so I didn't go again.

Des wrote: »

Some school aged kids were throwing shapes at each other, and I felt intimidated by them, so I hurried on past the ground on my way to the pub.

You should go into comedy. Seriously talented.

Pj! · 23-10-2012 05:23PM

CSF wrote: »

I was under the impression that football was a sport, not a product. Not in the Premiership of course, but elsewhere.

It's very much a product. And should be treated like one. Not like some sort of religion that people should visit regardless.

CSF · 23-10-2012 05:23PM

Owen_S wrote: »

I went to see Man Utd play in the Champions League for about €80-90(travel, ticket and food included here). It would cost me close to €50 to go and watch the closest Airtricity League Premier Division team. Although it's not their fault that Bus Eireann is so expensive, there is simply no competition there for me between attending a LOI match and a Champions League match.

But I mean 90%+ of the world don't have something comparable to Champions League football featuring a multiple previous winner.

But that's not how actual football support works or else all the rest of the clubs in the world should just pack it in, and join the rest of you gloryhunters out there.

CSF · 23-10-2012 05:24PM

Pj! wrote: »

It's very much a product. And should be treated like one. Not like some sort of religion that people should visit regardless.

Products are for consumers. Football clubs are for supporters. It's blatantly obvious which category you fall into. But sure to each their own.

dfx- · 23-10-2012 05:28PM

Ares wrote: »

I was two LOI games and to be quite frank I'd never go again.

What can you determine in two games? You might be able to work out which team is playing in red and which one is in blue, plus that the referee wears black. Not much else.

Pj! · 23-10-2012 05:38PM

CSF wrote: »

Products are for consumers. Football clubs are for supporters. It's blatantly obvious which category you fall into. But sure to each their own.

It's a very naive attitude.

Sure continue blaming the supporters and leave the product the way it is. Maybe one day they'll all come around. :rolleyes:

SantryRed · 23-10-2012 05:52PM

Owen_S wrote: »

I went to see Man Utd play in the Champions League for about €80-90(travel, ticket and food included here). It would cost me close to €50 to go and watch the closest Airtricity League Premier Division team. Although it's not their fault that Bus Eireann is so expensive, there is simply no competition there for me between attending a LOI match and a Champions League match.

where do you live?

sprinkles · 23-10-2012 06:12PM

Davidth88 wrote: »

Guys, Have to put a disclaimer in her

:eek:

Guy:Incognito · 23-10-2012 06:16PM

MRPRO03 wrote: »

Football is not about the quality, people in Ireland have got to get this thought out of their heads. It is about one area against another area, how is supporting a foreign team representing you and your locality, no fan of a foreign team can answer that, no matter how hard they try..

Do you have to cross a border to count as "foreign" in this sense? Travelling to teams not local to you is not something unique to Irish people. There's plenty of non scouse British accents in Anfield or non Macunian ones in Old Trafford. There's plenty of other nationalities represented too. Watching MOTD at the weekend there was a flag over the hoarding at Old Trafford with "German supporters club" on it. They have a top level European league but people still choose to support Utd.

People follow who they want to follow.

The root of the problems with Irish football

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