The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

systemsready · 14-10-2012 10:18AM

Your answer to option 1...you say you FEEL you are more than a lump of flesh. s this feeling based on an emotion?
To option 2, are you saying then that what people believe is true? Are you saying that if someone doesn't believe in an afterlife that means there is no afterlife? Then we could use the same argument and state that for those who believe in afterlife , an afterlife must exist

You say you are disturbed by me saying 'almost 2 different species'...We are not 2 different species, which is why I said 'almost as if'. If it is, as stated in the previous paragraph, that what people believe of themselves is true..then I am a species that lives forever, and you are a species that expires after 80 years. Thats a huge difference in nature you must agree? But obviously we are not 2 different species...so it is either we all expire after the said 80 years..or we all continue living in the afterlife. I believe the latter,and you believe the former.

pauldla · 14-10-2012 10:22AM

systemsready wrote: »

...so it is either we all expire after the said 80 years..or we all continue living in the afterlife. I believe the latter,and you believe the former.

Benny is actually a mod here, dude, so I suspect he's a Christian.

Good on you for your earlier post, Benny.

systemsready · 14-10-2012 10:22AM

Sin City wrote: »

The existence of God isnt obvious btw no matter how much you wish it was

Its not obvious to you..yet.

Sin City · 14-10-2012 10:25AM

systemsready wrote: »

Its not obvious to you..yet.

If its obvious then you can prove to me its obvious, so go ahead

systemsready · 14-10-2012 10:38AM

Sin City wrote: »

If its obvious then you can prove to me its obvious, so go ahead

Knowing God is a gift. I am not empowered to give that gift. There is only One who can bestow that gift and that is Him who brought us into existence.
Ask Him sincerely and He opens the door to awareness of Him.
All we have to do is ask.
He is very very Kind and very Generous.

Sin City · 14-10-2012 10:41AM

systemsready wrote: »

Knowing God is a gift. I am not empowered to give that gift. There is only One who can bestow that gift and that is Him who brought us into existence.
Ask Him sincerely and He opens the door to awareness of Him.
All we have to do is ask.
He is very very Kind and very Generous.

So your saying that you cant prove it then, meaning that it isnt actually obvious , meaning we can add this one to the rest of your failure attempts to say there is a God

systemsready · 14-10-2012 10:50AM

Sin City wrote: »

So your saying that you cant prove it then, meaning that it isnt actually obvious , meaning we can add this one to the rest of your failure attempts to say there is a God

Try proving Einsteins Theory of relativity to someone who has no power of hearing and sight.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-04/einstein-s-theory-of-relativity-proven-right-by-stanford-nasa-space-probe.html
"A U.S. space probe carrying four gyroscopes has confirmed two key elements of Albert Einstein’s theory of relativity about 95 years after he postulated it and 56 years after he died."

A Nasa scientist would say, but its f******* obvious...but still that person would not get it.

Benny_Cake · 14-10-2012 10:55AM

systemsready wrote: »

Your answer to option 1...you say you FEEL you are more than a lump of flesh. s this feeling based on an emotion?
To option 2, are you saying then that what people believe is true? Are you saying that if someone doesn't believe in an afterlife that means there is no afterlife? Then we could use the same argument and state that for those who believe in afterlife , an afterlife must exist

You say you are disturbed by me saying 'almost 2 different species'...We are not 2 different species, which is why I said 'almost as if'. If it is, as stated in the previous paragraph, that what people believe of themselves is true..then I am a species that lives forever, and you are a species that expires after 80 years. Thats a huge difference in nature you must agree? But obviously we are not 2 different species...so it is either we all expire after the said 80 years..or we all continue living in the afterlife. I believe the latter,and you believe the former.

You were the person who presented these two options, not me, and not anyone else. What I said was that very few of those who don't believe in God would accept that their lives are meaningless. I believe in God, and for me that belief helps me understand the meaning of life, but if I didn't believe, my life would still have meaning. Certainly a persons life has a great deal of value and meaning to those who love them, regardless of their belief.

In answer to your second question, I do believe in an afterlife (although I have no idea what it will look like), but that isn't something I can prove empirically. Neither can you. Some devoutly religious people don't believe in an afterlife - the ancient Jewish sect, the Sadducees, believed in reincarnation. Some Christians, such as the Seventh-day Adventists, believe that the soul is mortal and that only the saved will be resurrected - in that case, no afterlife of any sort for the majority of humanity. You are simplifying a very complex range of views.

Sin City · 14-10-2012 10:57AM

systemsready wrote: »

Try proving Einsteins Theory of relativity to someone who has no power of hearing and sight.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-04/einstein-s-theory-of-relativity-proven-right-by-stanford-nasa-space-probe.html
"A U.S. space probe carrying four gyroscopes has confirmed two key elements of Albert Einstein’s theory of relativity about 95 years after he postulated it and 56 years after he died."

A Nasa scientist would say, but its f******* obvious...but still that person would not get it.

Yes but Einstein could prove his theory through maths, you havent offered one iota of evidence to support your claim, yet you still state its obvious, to you.

Now just to counter your explaining to a blind and deaf person, you can explain it by touch, you give mankind very little credit for their own abilities, which I suppose should be expected as you only see us a sack of meat who needs God to hold their hand for their entire (80 year) existence

systemsready · 14-10-2012 11:04AM

Benny_Cake wrote: »

1.Certainly a persons life has a great deal of value and meaning to those who love them, regardless of their belief.

2. In answer to your second question, I do believe in an afterlife (although I have no idea what it will look like), but that isn't something I can prove empirically. Neither can you. Some devoutly religious people don't believe in an afterlife - the ancient Jewish sect, the Sadducees, believed in reincarnation. Some Christians, such as the Seventh-day Adventists, believe that the soul is mortal and that only the saved will be resurrected - in that case, no afterlife of any sort for the majority of humanity. You are simplifying a very complex range of views.

To number 1...so its a subjective meaning?

To number 2. You say you believe in an afterlife but at the same time you give credibility to the Sadducees who believe in re-incarnation..meaning you think thats possible as well. You say that the SDA believe only a few will get to the afterlife. So what is it that YOU actually believe? Do you have a clear belief about things you say you believe in? Or are you saying the Sadducees may be right or the SDA may be right...and even though you say you believe in an afterlife..are you saying you feel its possible there is no afterlife?? You say you believe in God, but are you saying on the other hand you feel its possible there is no God at all?

systemsready · 14-10-2012 11:06AM

Sin City wrote: »

Now just to counter your explaining to a blind and deaf person, you can explain it by touch,

How long is that going to take?

Monty Burnz · 14-10-2012 11:07AM

systemsready wrote: »

Its not obvious to you..yet.

If it was obvious, why would there be hundreds of competing gods and people who believe in some or none of them? :rolleyes:

Sin City · 14-10-2012 11:10AM

systemsready wrote: »

How long is that going to take?

What does that matter?
You have stated something cant be done

I have shown you it can

Just admit that you could be wrong , there is no shame in it

Benny_Cake · 14-10-2012 11:18AM

systemsready wrote: »

To number 1...so its a subjective meaning?

Is love objective or subjective? I don't know that, but I do know that everyone's life has meaning and worth. That's everyone - regardless of belief.

systemsready wrote: »

To number 2. You say you believe in an afterlife but at the same time you give credibility to the Sadducees who believe in re-incarnation..meaning you think thats possible as well. You say that the SDA believe only a few will get to the afterlife. So what is it that YOU actually believe? Do you have a clear belief about things you say you believe in? Or are you saying the Sadducees may be right or the SDA may be right...and even though you say you believe in an afterlife..are you saying you feel its possible there is no afterlife?? You say you believe in God, but are you saying on the other hand you feel its possible there is no God at all?

How does describing someone's beliefs equate to assigning credibility to them? I find the Prince Philip Movement fascinating, but I don't believe that Prince Philip is a divine being! I don't believe in reincarnation, but I do believe in an afterlife. However, I'm happy to leave the details of that to God. For me, faith in Jesus and who He is, along with His work of reconciliation is a means to living a good and worthwhile life and I think Christians spend way too much time trying to figure out who is "in" and "out". So I'm happy to leave the details of that to God.

Just like I'm happy to accept that Genesis is largely a story with which has a meaning rather than a literal, historical text. In fact, Genesis has a great metaphor for someone struggling with faith in the scene where Jacob "literally" wrestles with God! It's that struggle that makes a journey of faith so interesting.

Monty Burnz · 14-10-2012 11:20AM

systemsready wrote: »

How long is that going to take?

Your ignorance on this point is not at all surprising as it fits in with a general pattern of ignorance in your posts here. The University of Tokyo has a deaf blind professor of science.

Doc Farrell · 14-10-2012 11:39AM

Every time I open this thread I think of the Dude in the Big Lebowski.
'just take it easy Walter!'
'Am I wrong!'
'just, just take it easy,'

systemsready · 14-10-2012 01:11PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If it was obvious, why would there be hundreds of competing gods and people who believe in some or none of them? :rolleyes:

Are there ACTUALLY, IN REALITY, hundreds of Gods..do they actually exist these hundreds
have you no reasonable way to answer such a rhetorical question?

systemsready · 14-10-2012 01:13PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Your ignorance on this point is not at all surprising as it fits in with a general pattern of ignorance in your posts here. The University of Tokyo has a deaf blind professor of science.

The difference is that he once had hearing...whereas I'm talking about those who always play deaf. (Refuse to hear and refuse to see)..Big difference.

systemsready · 14-10-2012 01:16PM

Sin City wrote: »

What does that matter?
You have stated something cant be done

I have shown you it can

Just admit that you could be wrong , there is no shame in it

You asked me to prove to you tht God is there, I have offered that evidence in many posts, you still ask me to prove it...so I say...its obvious..whats wrong with you? you must be unable to see or hear!

systemsready · 14-10-2012 01:20PM

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Is love objective or subjective? I don't know that, but I do know that everyone's life has meaning and worth. That's everyone - regardless of belief.

How does describing someone's beliefs equate to assigning credibility to them? I find the Prince Philip Movement fascinating, but I don't believe that Prince Philip is a divine being! I don't believe in reincarnation, but I do believe in an afterlife. However, I'm happy to leave the details of that to God. For me, faith in Jesus and who He is, along with His work of reconciliation is a means to living a good and worthwhile life and I think Christians spend way too much time trying to figure out who is "in" and "out". So I'm happy to leave the details of that to God.

Just like I'm happy to accept that Genesis is largely a story with which has a meaning rather than a literal, historical text. In fact, Genesis has a great metaphor for someone struggling with faith in the scene where Jacob "literally" wrestles with God! It's that struggle that makes a journey of faith so interesting.

Yes very interesting, fascinating even (prince phillip movement).
So you feel that an atheist has a reasonable argument as to the existence of God. You think he has a valid point and you consider that indeed its possible that there is no God.
Thats nice..

Sin City · 14-10-2012 01:44PM

systemsready wrote: »

You asked me to prove to you tht God is there, I have offered that evidence in many posts, you still ask me to prove it...so I say...its obvious..whats wrong with you? you must be unable to see or hear!

you havent offered any proof at all, in fact all you have done is insult people who do not share your view point, so much so in fact that you are either a troll or just so wrapped up in your own ideologies that you cannot and will not accept anything that will conflict them.

You refuse to even accept that science is actually credible , the scientific method is testible and everything about God and religion are just stories handed down from culture to culture, from generation to generation and are in fact fables masquarding as fact. But to elevate these fables above science and emipricle evidence is absurd

So to end this you are either a troll or a fool

systemsready · 14-10-2012 01:47PM

Sin City wrote: »

you havent offered any proof at all, in fact all you have done is insult people who do not share your view point, so much so in fact that you are either a troll or just so wrapped up in your own ideologies that you cannot and will not accept anything that will conflict them.

You refuse to even accept that science is actually credible , the scientific method is testible and everything about God and religion are just stories handed down from culture to culture, from generation to generation and are in fact fables masquarding as fact. But to elevate these fables above science and emipricle evidence is absurd

So to end this you are either a troll or a fool

Then we go back to the original question...how did it all come into existence?
here we go again!

Sin City · 14-10-2012 01:54PM

systemsready wrote: »

Then we go back to the original question...how did it all come into existence?
here we go again!

We are still trying to figure it all out. We dont just say well God did it and leave it at that, no rational person would. We have yet to unlock the mysteries of the universe but we are , at least at a snails pace, starting to.

We have many theories ,as to how it all happened, big bang for instance and we have found through science that some particles can appear from nothing and these may have been the cause or part of the cause of the big bang.

Benny_Cake · 14-10-2012 02:11PM

systemsready wrote: »

Yes very interesting, fascinating even (prince phillip movement).
So you feel that an atheist has a reasonable argument as to the existence of God. You think he has a valid point and you consider that indeed its possible that there is no God.
Thats nice..

No, that isn't my position at all. You are either missing the point in spectacular fashion, or being deliberately dishonest.

I believe in God, but unlike you, I don't assume that I have an argument that will convince someone who is an atheist of that. Spirituality, and having a relationship with God / the divine is a deeply personal experience. If there was a way to demonstrate the existence of God, using the scientific method, why would we even be discussing this. All I can do is try to live as decent a life as possible, and if someone asks about my beliefs I am happy to share them. I'm a fairly curious person when it comes to science, and as I don't read the Bible in a literalist fashion, I don't feel the need to reject the evidence of scientific inquiry in order to avoid challenging my beliefs.

Your essential argument appears to be that the book of Genesis is literal, historical truth, which is why you adopt positions such as saying that the elephants stood on sponges in the ark as a space-saving measure. On the other hand, much of the New Testament is nonsense to you. You are entitled to your opinion, and to hold whatever position you like, but it is a position that very few people would share so I would be a little less arrogant and condescending to those who point out the flaws in it.

tommy2bad · 14-10-2012 04:38PM

systemsready wrote: »

Yes very interesting, fascinating even (prince phillip movement).
So you feel that an atheist has a reasonable argument as to the existence of God. You think he has a valid point and you consider that indeed its possible that there is no God.
Thats nice..

Few atheists have any argument for the existence or non existence of God, they just don't believe.
Those that do offer an argument are actually quite convincing, so what? I think they might be right as often as I am certain they are wrong.
I also think YEC and ID is total nonsense, the God I believe has enough sophistication to produce a book with some subtlety.
And if their is no God, my reading of the bible still has value, yours is just a lie.

Zombrex · 14-10-2012 04:43PM

systemsready wrote: »

Anything that is created was created for a purpose...God was not created.

And thus has no purpose, and thus has no meaning. Anything done by something that has no meaning has no meaning. Thus God's creation of us has no meaning, thus we are meaningless.

You are simply ignoring this point by talking about beginnings. Unless God having no beginning gives him meaning then it is irrelevant.

I think you disagree with me but you don't know why and you don't know how to explain why so you are trying to introduce things that have no relevance in a vain attempt to make it look like there is a problem with my reasoning.

Sorry systemready, you seem a bit out of depth here.

maguffin · 14-10-2012 06:06PM

I notice systemsready chose to ignore this reply from me earlier....did he feel threatened or just answering selectively....so here it is again...

systemsready wrote: »

No concern of yours if God is there or not? But the whole momentum of your life is based on 1 of 2 options.
1.If God is not there you are merely a piece of flesh with an existence span of 80 or so years,1/3 of which you will spend sleeping, 1/3 working, and the rest eating and watching TV (based on the average Joe).
2.If God is there you are a being that will never cease to exist. You may spend this life as the Average Joe, but after it you are sure you will continue existing as something else.
Those 2 mindsets are completely different, almost as if 2 different species of human. And living as either means consequences.
You are presented with a choice on what you are. You have chosen option 1.

You have totally missed the point.....

also...MY life is NOT based on either of your so called options...they are what You have set for YOURSELF....not me!

I have NOT chosen any option....that is ONLY YOUR assumption.

Proof or otherwise of (your) god is ACTUALLY none of my concern.

And just to point out something else...YOU also are just 'a piece of flesh with an existence span of 80 or so years,1/3 of which you will spend sleeping, 1/3 working, and the rest eating and watching TV (based on the average Joe).' since like everyone else on this planet you follow the normal life-cycle of existance on earth.

P.S I rarely watch TV, am retired and lead a full and exciting life full of a Spirituality that you couldn't even begin to comprehend....all without the limitations of christianity.

Monty Burnz · 14-10-2012 06:23PM

systemsready wrote: »

Are there ACTUALLY, IN REALITY, hundreds of Gods..do they actually exist these hundreds
have you no reasonable way to answer such a rhetorical question?

The relevant question is not whether hundreds of gods exist, but whether people believe in hundreds of different gods. This is easily proven.

The question stands then as to how it is 'obvious' according to your claim that there is one god, and he happens to be the Christian one you believe in.

Monty Burnz · 14-10-2012 06:23PM

systemsready wrote: »

The difference is that he once had hearing...whereas I'm talking about those who always play deaf. (Refuse to hear and refuse to see)..Big difference.

What, religious fundamentalists, you mean?

Monty Burnz · 14-10-2012 06:25PM

systemsready wrote: »

You asked me to prove to you tht God is there, I have offered that evidence in many posts, you still ask me to prove it...so I say...its obvious..whats wrong with you? you must be unable to see or hear!

Everybody has evidence for their gods - do you think everyone else believes in their religion at random?

The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

Comments