The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

Zombrex wrote: »

I'm not saying we need to know the meaning of God's existence, I'm asking is there one. Did something decide God would exist for some reason, or does God just exist without any meaning?

It is a pretty straight forward question, are you avoiding it because you understand the implications of what God's existence having no meaning are?

If SOMETHING decided God would exist..then that SOMETHING would be greater than God...therefore the Something would be God and the other would be a creation of God's.

shizz wrote: »

So in other words its turtles all the way down?

yes..those are the cards we are dealt with and we must play with.

Zombrex wrote: »

So you agree nothing decided the meaning for God's existence, since there is nothing is greater than god.

Nothing can be Greater than God..thats why He is God.

Zombrex wrote: »

Wonderful. Under your own arguments you have just proved your existence has no meaning.

Let me explain.

Under your logic a being that has no purpose or meaning assigned for its existence is itself meaningless and everything it does is meaningless. You said so yourself about humans, if God didn't make us for a reason then our existence is meaningless and everything we do is meaningless.

So God's existence is meaningless, which must mean everything he does is equally meaningless. Which includes creating us. We can't have meaning because our creation itself was a meaningless act of a meaningless being.

Ah logic.

So you have to ask yourself, where were you wrong

Where you wrong when you said without assigned meaning human existence has no meaning and everything we do is meaningless

Where you wrong when you said God was not created and has no assigned meaning for his existence.

Because you were wrong some where ...

But you missed a certain crucial point. God never ceases to exist..He had no beginning and has no end.
You have a beginning and you have an end.
Your existence is entirely dependent..but His existence is not dependent on anything.
There is no comparison.
You cannot use the same terms.
ah common sense!

systemsready wrote: »

You think Creationists don't know about the place they live? We see the same universe...the only difference is that we say " Surely all this cannot be meaningless, surely whoever brought this universe into existence must be Omniscient..must be Omnipotent"
You say either you dont know how it came to existence or you say it happened by chance.
The Creationisst view is more rational

Yes. If Creationists believe that the world is between 6-10,000 years old (and from what I read, that is the usual timeframe given), then they do not know about the place where they live.

In order to endorse Creationism, one must reject the findings of physics, chemisty, geology, astronomy, paleontology, archeology, linguistics, anthropology, etc. I cannot see how you can say this is 'more rational'.

I have towels that are almost as old as the Young Earth.

Zombrex wrote: »

Dependant? What does that have to do with anything. We are discussing meaning. Please try and keep up.

Things either have a meaning for their existence or they are meaningless., whether or not they always existed or come into existence.

You stated categorically that if humans have no assigned meaning then their existence is meaningless. This holds whether or not humans came into being at some point or always existed. You either have meaning or don't.

So the same must hold for God. God has no assigned meaning, thus his existence is meaningless, thus everything he does is meaningless

Your logic there systemsready, your logic

You're not thinking about this deep enough. The trouble is that we as limited humans cannot comprehend something that had no beginning. For us everything has a beginning. That's our nature to see that everything around us began at some point. Which is why we are having trouble comprehending the beginning of existence.
You are subtly suggesting that God had a beginning, and a purpose, for which He Himself came into existence, that first there was nothing and then God came into being.
You need to try to get your chops round the concept of 'God always was and always will be'. No beginning, no end. Try it, think, NO beginning!..LOL..it hurts doesn't it? The human mind cannot grasp such a concept, but we know that it must be so. If God had a beginning, then somethng else must have brought Him into existence. But He had no beginning....omg..head hurts now

Anything that is created was created for a purpose...God was not created.

systemsready wrote: »

You're not thinking about this deep enough. The trouble is that we as limited humans cannot comprehend something that had no beginning. For us everything has a beginning. That's our nature to see that everything around us began at some point. Which is why we are having trouble comprehending the beginning of existence.
You are subtly suggesting that God had a beginning, and a purpose, for which He Himself came into existence, that first there was nothing and then God came into being.
You need to try to get your chops round the concept of 'God always was and always will be'. No beginning, no end. Try it, think, NO beginning!..LOL..it hurts doesn't it? The human mind cannot grasp such a concept, but we know that it must be so. If God had a beginning, then somethng else must have brought Him into existence. But He had no beginning....omg..head hurts now

Anything that is created was created for a purpose...God was not created.

I assume that you (systemsready) accept that you are human, if you do, then by your own definition you cannot comprehend something that has no beginning, which means, again by your own definition, that your nature is to see that everything around us has/had a beginning, which therefore means that YOU also see that (your) God had a beginning, which completely contradicts your final words above....ie 'God was not created'.

You contradict youself a lot as well as being vague, off hand, ill informed, repetitious and argumentatively superficial in your replies.

Sin City wrote: »

How do you know , and do you have any evidence to back up your claim or are you just assuming ?

It s an highly probable assumption based on reasonable deduction.

maguffin wrote: »

I assume that you (systemsready) accept that you are human, if you do, then by your own definition you cannot comprehend something that has no beginning, which means, again by your own definition, that your nature is to see that everything around us has/had a beginning, which therefore means that YOU also see that (your) God had a beginning, which completely contradicts your final words above....ie 'God was not created'.

You contradict youself a lot as well as being vague, off hand, ill informed, repetitious and argumentatively superficial in your replies.

Lets simplify it..if God had a beginning...how did He begin? Was He brought into existence by a Greater Power...did He just become existent out of nothing? Did something exist before Him that was less than He..for example..a primordial soup, or a gas,or an energy...and then God evolved from this?
Everything had a beginning..yes..every 'thing'...but how? Think outside the word 'thing'. You must be able to detach your mind from material thought.
I cant think of any other options...but then I'm superficial. You must be the opposite..so please enlighten me.
So

systemsready wrote: »

Its reason is based upon the alternatives to the proposal. The alternatives do not carry enough weight to offset it.

Saying God always existed but with no evidence to support this claim is absurd. This argument does not carry any weight.

systemsready wrote: »

Lets simplify it..if God had a beginning...how did He begin? Was He brought into existence by a Greater Power...did He just become existent out of nothing? Did something exist before Him that was less than He..for example..a primordial soup, or a gas,or an energy...and then God evolved from this?
Everything had a beginning..yes..every 'thing'...but how? Think outside the word 'thing'. You must be able to detach your mind from material thought.
I cant think of any other options...but then I'm superficial. You must be the opposite..so please enlighten me.
So

Firstly...it is of no concern to me whether (your) God exists or not, neither have I need to prove/disprove its existance, its beginning or end, its creation or its timelessness.

I simply pointed out that you cotradicted yourself and that your argument style is what I said it is.

systemsready wrote:

Its reason is based upon the alternatives to the proposal. The alternatives do not carry enough weight to offset it.

The above a prime example of your vagueness.

As for enlightening you....enlightenment can only come from within, but to be enlightened means you must let go of all pre-conceptions and be open to all possibilities, only then will you be able to accept and recognise Truth.

Sin City wrote: »

God began because early man kind did not know what was happening around them and assumed that some one must be controlling these external , supernatural forces and made up celestial beings to blame



God was brought into existence by man and his imagination. It is man who created the concept of God not the other way around

So how did man come into existence? My guess is you believe that there is somewhere another entity that needs to believe in mankind and therefore invented mankind in order to shore up some need in them. Therefore we ,mankind , are just a figment in the imagination of some other entity?

So,how did mankind come into existence if we cant say 'Goddidit!'?

maguffin wrote: »

Firstly...it is of no concern to me whether (your) God exists or not, neither have I need to prove/disprove its existance, its beginning or end, its creation or its timelessness.

I simply pointed out that you cotradicted yourself and that your argument style is what I said it is.



The above a prime example of your vagueness.

As for enlightening you....enlightenment can only come from within, but to be enlightened means you must let go of all pre-conceptions and be open to all possibilities, only then will you be able to accept and recognise Truth.

No concern of yours if God is there or not? But the whole momentum of your life is based on 1 of 2 options.
1.If God is not there you are merely a piece of flesh with an existence span of 80 or so years,1/3 of which you will spend sleeping, 1/3 working, and the rest eating and watching TV (based on the average Joe).
2.If God is there you are a being that will never cease to exist. You may spend this life as the Average Joe, but after it you are sure you will continue existing as something else.
Those 2 mindsets are completely different, almost as if 2 different species of human. And living as either means consequences.
You are presented with a choice on what you are. You have chosen option 1.

Sin City wrote: »

I know this may be hard for you to get your head around, but we are here by means of evolution. We dont need to be figments of someone else imagination. We think therefore we are. Yes we exist and we can cease to exist , we can influence our surroundings to prove to ourselves we exist.

Why must you insist that there must be some higher power pulling our strings?

But we have shown throughout this discussion that the Godless universe is absurdity.(That's my reflection of it anyway, and the more I discuss it the more I see it is absurd.)
Now we are just rehashing the whole thing again.
I don't insist we were Created...its just plainly obvious we were. Because the alternative to Creation is absurd.

systemsready wrote: »

But we have shown throughout this discussion that the Godless universe is absurdity.(That's my reflection of it anyway, and the more I discuss it the more I see it is absurd.)
Now we are just rehashing the whole thing again.
I don't insist we were Created...its just plainly obvious we were. Because the alternative to Creation is absurd.

No a Godless universe scares you, this does not make it an abusrdity. We have seen through all these discussions that you dont want to have an open mind will just keep saying Gods has to exist otherwise you feel worthless.

The existence of God isnt obvious btw no matter how much you wish it was