Just when i thought the catholic church couldn't get any worse

cowzerp · 11-10-2012 11:03AM #1

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/fury-as-woman-outlines-abortion-at-mass-210541.html

This institute should be stamped into the ground, Total morons.

Abi · 11-10-2012 11:06AM

Fury as woman outlines abortion at Mass

By Claire O’Sullivan

Thursday, October 11, 2012

A priest has sparked controversy after he arranged for a woman to give a graphic account of her abortion at a children’s Mass and outline how she believed her special needs child was a punishment from God.

The speech was made in front of up to 100 children at the Church of Our Lady Conceived Without Sin in Mitchelstown, Co Cork. It coincided with the issuing of a pastoral letter by the Catholic Bishops of Ireland on abortion.

Parish priest Fr Michael Fitzgerald did not seek permission from the apostolic administrator of the diocese, Archbishop Dermot Clifford, to allow the woman to take to the pulpit.

Last night, the archbishop said he was "unhappy this speech took place". He contacted Fr Fitzgerald about the guest speaker this week after he received complaints from parishioners who were disgusted the speech was made in front of children and that a special needs child was described as "punishment from God".

Many of the parishioners were parents and relatives of children with special needs.

Fr Fitzgerald said he believed "the woman’s comments around her special needs child were misinterpreted". He defended his actions but said allowing her to speak at Mass "was possibly bad judgment".

"I did not know what hurt it would cause," said Fr Fitzgerald. "I was contacted by an organisation who said they had a woman who could speak of her experience.

"At the time, I thought this is a story that not a lot of people get to hear. I knew the woman’s story but I did not know what hurt it would cause. She explained to the congregation that it was the guilt inside of her that made her feel like that. She was hurt at the time. She had not yet healed after the abortion.

"A central theme of her address was that all human life is sacred, that all children are precious and should be equally cherished and supported. It is a matter of regret that a small number of people were upset at some aspects of the lady’s address, especially as they related to children with special needs. I can assure you that was never intended."

The woman gave her talk at several Masses last Sunday. There were children with special needs in the various congregations.

The woman, who lives in the Cork area, was a representative of the Rachel’s Vineyard organisation. Set up in the US by the pro-life Priests for Life organisation, Rachel’s Vineyard provides counselling and retreats to women who have had abortions. An Irish representative for the group said it "too believed the comments were misinterpreted".

One of the parishioners, a parent of a child with special needs, said he was "gutted" and "horrified" by the speech. He described the decision to allow the woman to speak as "crazy".

Inclusion Ireland said the woman’s comment was a "ridiculous statement with no basis in fact". A spokeswoman said "it will cause great hurt to parents". "This talk should never have taken place," she added.

Last Sunday, a pastoral letter on abortion was delivered to the country’s 1,360 parishes. In the letter, the Catholic Bishops of Ireland argued the Government "is under no obligation" to legislate for abortion due to a 2010 European Court of Human Rights ruling.

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Seaneh · 11-10-2012 11:07AM

cowzerp wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/fury-as-woman-outlines-abortion-at-mass-210541.html

This institute should be stamped into the ground, Total morons.

Seeing as his superiors have condemned both the priest and guest speaker and her language, how is this the churches fault?

say_who_now? · 11-10-2012 11:15AM

cowzerp wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/fury-as-woman-outlines-abortion-at-mass-210541.html

This institute should be stamped into the ground, Total morons.

So the whole of the Roman Catholic Church are now responsible for the actions of one incredible numpty?

It's bad enough for them that they are represented by the incredible numpty in Rome, and I'm pretty sure a lot of RC's are embarrassed enough by the Pope already, but there's no need to tar them all with the same brush!

JohnMarston · 11-10-2012 11:16AM

Seaneh wrote: »

Seeing as his superiors have condemned both the priest and guest speaker and her language, how is this the churches fault?

Isnt the priest supposed to represent the Catholic Church in his area. Its not correct to say its the churchs fault directly.

Rabidlamb · 11-10-2012 11:18AM

Last time Glenn Hoddle will be the guest speaker.

Remmy · 11-10-2012 11:19AM

Crikey.. I wonder will he get the sack for that.

cowzerp · 11-10-2012 11:23AM

Has he been sacked? If not then they are tolerant to this behaviour, in any other walk of life this would not be allowed.

meoklmrk91 · 11-10-2012 11:31AM

People seem to pick and choose what they like about the catholic church, they want the wedding, communion, christening etc. but many of those people wouldn't agree that homosexuals are all going to hell, that women shouldn't use birth control and a good deal would also be pro-choice as its called. But that stuff usually isn't thrown in your face at usual mass, but in all fairness everyone knows what the church stands for, just because you don't like hearing it because you only wanted the nice bits.

I agree it shouldn't have been done in front of children, thats a fuppin disgrace. But this is what the Catholic Church preaches, it's not like it's come as some big surprise to people. For instance say I decided to join a Neo Nazi organisation really liked some parts of it but whenever anyone said anything anti-Semitic I would get really pissed off. It is exactly the same thing, to me anyway.

Maybe the parents should take some responsibility as well, they chose to bring their child to mass, to christen them etc. knowing well what the Catholic Church preaches.

fishy fishy · 11-10-2012 11:36AM

Seaneh wrote: »

Seeing as his superiors have condemned both the priest and guest speaker and her language, how is this the churches fault?

seanah, don't be so naive (no offense). Do you honestly believe anything that the "superiors" have to say on the matter. Have we not learned anything about the abuse the church caused and how it went straight to the top superiors covering up and hiding the fact. The catholic church is a business and a very shady one at that. Everythign they do must be questioned.

Riddle101 · 11-10-2012 11:37AM

It's easy to blame the catholic church for everything, but I don't think they can be blamed for this. Hell I believe the priest Fr Fitzgerald made a mistake as well. The woman wanted to talk about her expierence with abortion, he did not know what she was going to say. Simply put it was the woman who was at fault. It was poor judgement on his part, and I don't think the catholic chuch should be blamed.

1ZRed · 11-10-2012 11:40AM

Remmy wrote: »

Crikey.. I wonder will he get the sack for that.

Doubt it. They're really cracking down on the kiddy fondling these days.

Ellis Dee · 11-10-2012 11:42AM

That priest is clearly going solo, as the church he belongs to is nowadays a bit less "American religious fundamentalist" in the way it likes to present itself to the public.:rolleyes:

It's all a bit amateurish to have a selected layperson give the flock a tendentious talk about her experience of abortion and try to inflict shock, horror, guilt and fear. Fire and brimstone seem to have lost their effectiveness.:)

I wonder when they'll invite someone who survived child sex abuse by a priest to give a talk to the congregation on their experience of kiddy-fiddling?:D:D

Thinkingaboutit · 11-10-2012 11:43AM

say_who_now? wrote: »

So the whole of the Roman Catholic Church are now responsible for the actions of one incredible numpty?

It's bad enough for them that they are represented by the incredible numpty in Rome, and I'm pretty sure a lot of RC's are embarrassed enough by the Pope already, but there's no need to tar them all with the same brush!

Yes. His superiors have condemned this malevolent Fr Dougal, so wider condemnation is out of order.

tony81 · 11-10-2012 11:51AM

cowzerp wrote: »

Has he been sacked? If not then they are tolerant to this behaviour, in any other walk of life this would not be allowed.

Hmm, I feel the need to write a hateful and moronic Catholic-bashing thread. I know, I'll post in AH so maybe if I feign anger or humour I'll get away with it...

People are always saying how pompous and elitist the church is to exclude lay people, yet when someone is given a chance to speak the newspapers seize on it. And then the hate mob descend.. picking up on stories from every small parish around the country and blowing them out of all proportion.

In any other walk of life, the most I would push for would be a verbal warning, perhaps some sensitivity training... which no doubt the priest will now receive.

Walks of life that probably would justify a sacking... James Reilly is coming under fire for his Swords health centre but he's far from being sacked. When Iarnrod Eireann engineers were almost responsible for 100s of deaths because of the Malahide estuary viaduct collapse, I didn't see too many heads rolling at Iarnrod Eireann.. they're just some examples off the top of my head. Even this post, Cowzerp. Shouldn't you be banned for it? Probably, because it's disrespectful to Irish Catholics and many others who may be reading boards.ie.

Boombastic · 11-10-2012 11:54AM

Catholic Church preach what they believe in shocker :eek:

11-10-2012 11:54AM

So the woman is out of order because she believed her disabled child was a punishment from God? But it's absolutely fine for the church to say that homosexuality and abortion will send you to hell.

Einhard · 11-10-2012 11:56AM

Priest is in idiot.

But...people who advocate abortion aren't following the Catholic Church's teaching, so why keep up a charade by pretending they are Catholic?

tony81 · 11-10-2012 11:56AM

Ellis Dee wrote: »

I wonder when they'll invite someone who survived child sex abuse by a priest to give a talk to the congregation on their experience of kiddy-fiddling?:D:D

I like the way you threw a few

's in there to try to sound humorous rather than ignorant.

But can you imagine the headline "horror as insensitive priest invites child sex victim to give talk"; "scandal as children were present when child sex abuse victim gave graphic account..." etc etc

Really, this discussion isn't suited to AH in my opinion, and neither is church-bashing. I'm sure Stormfront have more suitable forums for bashing various religions.

Einhard · 11-10-2012 11:59AM

tony81 wrote: »

I'm sure Stormfront have more suitable forums for bashing various religions.

Ah yes, because criticising the Catholic Church is now akin to the activities of StormFront members, such as alternately denying the Holocaust and celebrating the Holocaust, and of course engaging in violent attacks on people of colour. An entirely appropriate analogy to be sure...

Mint Sauce · 11-10-2012 11:59AM

Seaneh wrote: »

Seeing as his superiors have condemned both the priest and guest speaker and her language, how is this the churches fault?

Is and it isn't. With the X-case, the passed abortion referendum still not put into legislation, and the now so called expert panel discussing it. The church are now getting in on the debate to pressure its congregation to somehow protest against abortion ever going through in any circumstances.

I was in my local parish church for the first time a couple of months ago for the first time in years, other than funerals and xmas, and left horrified and disgusted at what I had witnessed and heard. They had used the pulpit as well to promote a pro life group, that would provide help, advice, and even respite care for families whose unborn child may not survive childbirth, or where the life of the mother was at risk, due to pregnancy, child birth complications, or a diagnoses of the foetus.

Whislt I have no issue with the prolife/choice debate, I dont feel a church is a place to debate or promote it, for two reasons, its going to be a totally one sided debate to a majority of ears that are more than likely going to be prolife, and secondly, my ingrained catholic beleive (dispite being a lasped one my self) that the church was a place for worship and not political debate.

Einhard · 11-10-2012 12:05PM

irish-stew wrote: »

Is and it isn't. With the X-case, the passed abortion referendum still not put into legislation, and the now so called expert panel discussing it. The church are now getting in on the debate to pressure its congregation to somehow protest against abortion ever going through in any circumstances.

I was in my local parish church for the first time a couple of months ago for the first time in years, other than funerals and xmas, and left horrified and disgusted at what I had witnessed and heard. They had used the pulpit as well to promote a pro life group, that would provide help, advice, and even respite care for families whose unborn child may not survive childbirth, or where the life of the mother was at risk, due to pregnancy, child birth complications, or a diagnoses of the foetus.

Whislt I have no issue with the prolife/choice debate, I dont feel a church is a place to debate or promote it, for two reasons, its going to be a totally one sided debate to a majority of ears that are more than likely going to be prolife, and secondly, my ingrained catholic beleive (dispite being a lasped one my self) that the church was a place for worship and not political debate.

So, lemme get this straight...you went to a Catholic Church, and left horrified and disgusted when Catholic teaching was expounded from the pulpit? I think the problem here is clearly with you, and not with the Church. You find Church teaching offensive; you rarely go to Mass- you're obviously not a Catholic so why not just stop pretending?

tony81 · 11-10-2012 12:07PM

irish-stew wrote: »

Whislt I have no issue with the prolife/choice debate, I dont feel a church is a place to debate or promote it, for two reasons, its going to be a totally one sided debate to a majority of ears that are more than likely going to be prolife, and secondly, my ingrained catholic beleive (dispite being a lasped one my self) that the church was a place for worship and not political debate.

What you don't realise is the Church does not view abortion as a political issue.

While societies become more liberal as political leadership changes, the church is keeping the same position as it always held.

The Church is not just a place for worship. If you just want to worship, you can attend the church building, clear your mind, and say 200 Hail Mary's when no one else is there! Maybe even light a few candles.. very spiritual

fishy fishy · 11-10-2012 12:09PM

Riddle101 wrote: »

It's easy to blame the catholic church for everything, but I don't think they can be blamed for this. Hell I believe the priest Fr Fitzgerald made a mistake as well. The woman wanted to talk about her expierence with abortion, he did not know what she was going to say. Simply put it was the woman who was at fault. It was poor judgement on his part, and I don't think the catholic chuch should be blamed.

the same woman who is part of a pro-life organization in the USA set up by priests? - not some "random" person who wanted to share. :roll eyes: how convenient

11-10-2012 12:12PM

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

People seem to pick and choose what they like about the catholic church, they want the wedding, communion, christening etc. but many of those people wouldn't agree that homosexuals are all going to hell, that women shouldn't use birth control and a good deal would also be pro-choice as its called. But that stuff usually isn't thrown in your face at usual mass, but in all fairness everyone knows what the church stands for, just because you don't like hearing it because you only wanted the nice bits.

I agree it shouldn't have been done in front of children, thats a fuppin disgrace. But this is what the Catholic Church preaches, it's not like it's come as some big surprise to people. For instance say I decided to join a Neo Nazi organisation really liked some parts of it but whenever anyone said anything anti-Semitic I would get really pissed off. It is exactly the same thing, to me anyway.

Maybe the parents should take some responsibility as well, they chose to bring their child to mass, to christen them etc. knowing well what the Catholic Church preaches.

In fairness I think a lot of people feel pressured into these events. I wouldn't necessarily want my child baptised but if it limits the schools he/she can attend in a couple of years i suppose I should.

I wouldn't want my child to have communion but if you have chosen to send the kid to a school(based on quality of education) that includes this as part of their curriculum so to speak and all the other kids are doing it I don't want my child to feel left out.

I dont really want to get married but the probability is my future wife will probably want a big "traditional" wedding as it is a huge thing for a lot of girls (not all)

And on top of this family pressure to keep up these traditions.

Boombastic · 11-10-2012 12:12PM

tony81 wrote: »

What you don't realise is the Church does not view abortion as a political issue.

While societies become more liberal as political leadership changes, the church is keeping the same position as it always held.

The Church is not just a place for worship. If you just want to worship, you can attend the church building, clear your mind, and say 200 Hail Mary's when no one else is there! Maybe even light a few candles.. very spiritual

One political issue they should address is the state giving free money for the communion dresses

tony81 · 11-10-2012 12:12PM

Einhard wrote: »

Ah yes, because criticising the Catholic Church is now akin to the activities of StormFront members, such as alternately denying the Holocaust and celebrating the Holocaust, and of course engaging in violent attacks on people of colour. An entirely appropriate analogy to be sure...

That's just some StormFront members.
Many others will not be so bad, but will begin sentences with "I'm not racist but.."

And I'm sure there's a special place in their hearts for Catholic Church Bashing threads. "just when i thought the church couldn't get any worse... any random non-event... This institute should be stamped into the ground, Total morons.

cometogether · 11-10-2012 12:14PM

Special needs children are a punishment from God? What the hell is wrong with some people?

tony81 · 11-10-2012 12:15PM

Boombastic wrote: »

One political issue they should address is the state giving free money for the communion dresses

I know this is AH and I'm taking this too seriously, however..

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1002/1224324728487.html

In fact, the Republic’s families collectively spent about €45 million celebrating First Communions this year, with a further €26 million collected by children in the form of cash gifts from friends and family.

The church wants to see that spending dramatically reduced and yesterday the Archdiocese of Dublin published a policy document aimed at addressing the issue. “I believe there is something wrong with extravagance,” Archbishop Diarmuid Martin said.

Mint Sauce · 11-10-2012 12:16PM

Einhard wrote: »

So, lemme get this straight...you went to a Catholic Church, and left horrified and disgusted when Catholic teaching was expounded from the pulpit? I think the problem here is clearly with you, and not with the Church. You find Church teaching offensive; you rarely go to Mass- you're obviously not a Catholic so why not just stop pretending?

No, its beacuse it does not allow for equal or balanced debate. And whislt I'm fully aware that the church would be prolife, and that am rarely in one, I still did not expect such a presentation, that is essentially suppose to be a place of worship and prayer.

eviltwin · 11-10-2012 12:16PM

I feel sorry for this woman. She obviously never dealt with the abortion and that has led to her thinking her SN child is a punishment. Rachels Vineyard are disgusting for allowing this to happen, they would have seen how vulnerable that poor woman is and still exploited her by letting her talk.

Just when i thought the catholic church couldn't get any worse

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