199 different nationalities now in Ireland

diddley · 09-10-2012 03:08PM

Solair wrote: »

What's that got to do with national identity? That's a cultural / religious misunderstanding. It's nothing to do with one person being Swedish and the other not being Swedish. It's just weird sexism or something. What needs to be worked out is how to not conflate someone being a complete sexist with national identity.

Refusing to shake someone's hand is insulting. There's really no justification for that end of story.

Are national identity and culture not intertwined? It's weird sexism to YOU. It's also not justified in YOUR eyes. By you making those statements, you've proved my point about how a clash can occur. The man in the article obviously doesn't share your views and probably doesn't see that behaviour as insulting.

Solair · 09-10-2012 03:17PM

diddley wrote: »

Are national identity and culture not intertwined? It's weird sexism to YOU. It's also not justified in YOUR eyes. By you making those statements, you've proved my point about how a clash can occur. The man in the article obviously doesn't share your views and probably doesn't see that behaviour as insulting.

National identity and cultural identity are only as intertwined as someone's prepared to make them.

If you're a radical religious fundamentalist trying to hammer home some bizarre religious notion, or if you're a xenophobe trying to ram home that everyone from nationality X thinks this way, then off course you'll conflate the two because it's convenient and suits a particular agenda.

We saw how nasty and divisive it was in Ireland when national identity was conflated with religious identity in both the Republic and the North i.e. people deliberately mixing up Irish nationalism and catholic fundamentalism and Unionism and Protestant fundamentalism.

I'm not even going to enter a debate on that, but I think we all know the consequences were not good in the North or in the Republic over the decades.

As I see it anyway, it's very important to breakdown that notion.

What's being outlined is a clash between a culture of secular liberal democracy and a notion that someone wants to push in theocratic laws into that.

I mean, you could meet someone from Iran who was an absolutely progressive secularist who was pro-women's rights and very liberal and you could meet someone from a Western country who was some kind of religious fundamentalist who comes out with comments about how Evolution is all a bunch of lies (as per that US politician a few days ago).

That's why I think we need to be VERY careful about generalising about whole national identities! Just because you're from X does not necessarily mean anything in terms of your world view.

This is exactly why I think, for example, Ireland's blasphemy laws were ridiculous and dangerous. We actually put legislation down undermining our own liberal democracy!? Pure idiocy!

Nodin · 09-10-2012 03:35PM

jugger0 wrote: »

Yes but the people who make up the Irish race, normans,vikings,anglo saxons etc have, bar the boys up the north, integrated successfully, Looking at the UK and other European countries Muslims haven't integrated.

So now we have somebody who is confusing ethnicity, culture and religion. Well done sir.

Gurgle · 09-10-2012 03:50PM

Nodin wrote: »

So now we have somebody who is confusing ethnicity, culture and religion. Well done sir.

I think you'll find ethnicity, culture and religion are all major factors in peoples' classification of 'we' and 'they'.

Nodin · 09-10-2012 03:55PM

Gurgle wrote: »

I think you'll find ethnicity, culture and religion are all major factors in peoples' classification of 'we' and 'they'.

You'll also find its possible to be an Irish muslim, British catholic etc.

Gurgle · 09-10-2012 04:07PM

Nodin wrote: »

You'll also find its possible to be an Irish muslim, British catholic etc.

I think it was Patrick Monaghan's gag:

My father is Irish, my mother is Iranian. I grew up in England in the '80s. We used to go on holidays to Heathrow, we never got any further.

Paraphrasing, from memory, may not have even been him. Dunno what religion he is either.

diddley · 09-10-2012 04:18PM

Solair wrote: »

National identity and cultural identity are only as intertwined as someone's prepared to make them.

If you're a radical religious fundamentalist trying to hammer home some bizarre religious notion, or if you're a xenophobe trying to ram home that everyone from nationality X thinks this way, then off course you'll conflate the two because it's convenient and suits a particular agenda.

We saw how nasty and divisive it was in Ireland when national identity was conflated with religious identity in both the Republic and the North i.e. people deliberately mixing up Irish nationalism and catholic fundamentalism and Unionism and Protestant fundamentalism.

I'm not even going to enter a debate on that, but I think we all know the consequences were not good in the North or in the Republic over the decades.

As I see it anyway, it's very important to breakdown that notion.

What's being outlined is a clash between a culture of secular liberal democracy and a notion that someone wants to push in theocratic laws into that.

I mean, you could meet someone from Iran who was an absolutely progressive secularist who was pro-women's rights and very liberal and you could meet someone from a Western country who was some kind of religious fundamentalist who comes out with comments about how Evolution is all a bunch of lies (as per that US politician a few days ago).

That's why I think we need to be VERY careful about generalising about whole national identities! Just because you're from X does not necessarily mean anything in terms of your world view.

This is exactly why I think, for example, Ireland's blasphemy laws were ridiculous and dangerous. We actually put legislation down undermining our own liberal democracy!? Pure idiocy!

You've said a whole lot there, which, although nice and interesting and all, is not really relevant to my original point. You say it's dangerous to conflate religious identity and national identity with reference to Northern Ireland. Then you'll be glad to scroll back and read where I said that national identity and religious identity can indeed clash, and I think I provided an adequate source for that. You'll forgive me next time if I don't reply to a whole lot of nothing to do with what I wanted to discuss.

Also I don't understand your point about being' VERY careful about generalising about whole national identities!'. National identities are just that, a generalisation of a group of people. Have we become so overwhelmingly sensitive about generalising that we can no longer use terms such as 'national identity' 'culture' or even 'religion'. Maybe so as not to offend in future we will all discuss things only in terms of individuals. Thanks for the discussion but I'm weary now, and out. Peace.

Nodin · 09-10-2012 04:23PM

diddley wrote: »

Really? You can't think of any way in which religious identity and national identity can clash given the diverse populations in the world? I don't think you've thought about that too much. Here's just one example, Swedish woman is CEO of company, meets Muslim job applicant who refuses to shake her hand: http://www.stockholmnews.com/more.aspx?NID=4787

Alas, its not just a muslim thing....

Belgium’s health minister said she was “profoundly troubled” by the behavior of her Israeli counterpart, Yaakov Litzman, after the haredi Orthodox minister refused to shake her hand at a conference.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/belgian-health-minister-irked-by-israel-deputy-minister-s-refusal-to-shake-hands-1.432280

Ghost Buster · 09-10-2012 04:24PM

jugger0 wrote: »

Yes but the people who make up the Irish race, normans,vikings,anglo saxons etc have, bar the boys up the north, integrated successfully, Looking at the UK and other European countries Muslims haven't integrated.

Hmmm. Did The Normans, Vikings, Saxons, landed British and Scottish gentry etc integrate with ease of only after prolonged periods of warfare, plundering, raping and pillaging?
Thats a rhetorical question BTW.
I hope you dont count a Polish or Nigerian getting your prized job mopping the toilets in Supervalu as being as traumatic an integration as the Viking integration;)

Nodin · 09-10-2012 04:27PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Hmmm. Did The Normans, Vikings, Saxons, landed British and Scottish gentry etc integrate with ease of only after prolonged periods of warfare, plundering, raping and pillaging?
Thats a rhetorical question BTW.
I hope you dont count a Polish or Nigerian getting your prized job mopping the toilets in Supervalu as being as traumatic an integration as the Viking integration;)

And in fairness if you tried handing a viking a mop and pointing him towards the jacks, he probably wouldn't respond in as civil a manner.....

Ghost Buster · 09-10-2012 04:31PM

Nodin wrote: »

And in fairness if you tried handing a viking a mop and pointing him towards the jacks, he probably wouldn't respond in as civil a manner.....

Bloody Swedes, come over here, sacking our monasteries, adding height and blondness to our gene pool, selling fashionable flat pack furniture and taking our jobs..... Not to mention their funny religion with that chap with the hammer and all the lightning.... you know the fellah from The Avengers Movie...

Nodin · 09-10-2012 04:34PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Bloody Swedes, come over here, sacking our monasteries, adding height and blondness to our gene pool, selling fashionable flat pack furniture and taking our jobs..... Not to mention their funny religion with that chap with the hammer and all the lightning.... you know the fellah from The Avengers Movie...

Aye. The wimmin think he's sexy. "What about oul Crom" you might say. "Sure hes as fat as you" they say back. Terrible stuff.

Peregrine · 09-10-2012 05:07PM

Okay can someone check the census and tell me how many Muslims there actually are in Ireland? (I'm on mobile)
Because most of the non EU citizens I've met, including myself is Christian.
UK is a totally different story

jugger0 · 09-10-2012 05:23PM

Ye're gonna love this lads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb8SLNMIBlM

old hippy · 09-10-2012 05:34PM

Sappa wrote: »

Good luck with that,seriously the Japanese do not like foreigners integrating and would rather you did not speak any Japanese.
They are very much about there own culture and preserving it's identity.
You should know this being married to a Japanese lady or may e you haven't spent too much time there.
I worked in Japan and spoke with expats living there 20+ years who said they are still treated as just a foreigner and society will never take to you 100 % even if you speak perfect Japanese.
Look at the cases in Japan where American service men knock up a local lady that kid is shunned by Japanese people as being not one of them even though the mother is a native.
I would do some research on this first old hippy Japan is not as it seems.

Our friend's daughter is half Japanese and half Kenyan. She doesn't meet with that kind of predjudice. I've been to Japan many times and have studied the culture since I could read.

I'm not blind to the country's negative aspects, by any means. But pig headed ignorance is sadly rampant in every country. Just read the posts here to give you an idea.

AnonoBoy · 09-10-2012 05:37PM

jugger0 wrote: »

Ye're gonna love this lads.

Sure who'd listen to a bunch of f*ckin' Frenchies anyways? :pac:

old hippy · 09-10-2012 05:38PM

jugger0 wrote: »

Ye're gonna love this lads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb8SLNMIBlM

Coming from a Stormfront refugee like your good self, I seriously doubt it.

Good luck with keeping Ireland white, a chara :rolleyes:

jugger0 · 09-10-2012 05:49PM

old hippy wrote: »

Coming from a Stormfront refugee like your good self, I seriously doubt it.

Good luck with keeping Ireland white, a chara :rolleyes:

Good luck with molting into a Japanese man white boy!

old hippy · 09-10-2012 05:53PM

jugger0 wrote: »

Good luck with molting into a Japanese man white boy!

Good luck posting your racist garbage, O ignorant one :rolleyes:

And said I was white?

A Primal Nut · 09-10-2012 05:59PM

Was looking up the FIFA world rankings as that's the only list of countries I trust.

They don't include Ireland in the list of nationals in Ireland.

Some of the countries we don't have are:

North Korea; Turks and Caicos Islands, Muaritania; Cook Islands; British Virgin Islands; Montserrat.

South Sudan is not there but I'd say Sudan includes both Sudan and South Sudan.

hooradiation · 09-10-2012 06:05PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Bloody Swedes, come over here, sacking our monasteries, adding height and blondness to our gene pool, selling fashionable flat pack furniture and taking our jobs..... Not to mention their funny religion with that chap with the hammer and all the lightning.... you know the fellah from The Avengers Movie...

Tony Stark is a lot of things, but he's no god.

Solair · 09-10-2012 06:06PM

diddley wrote: »

You've said a whole lot there, which, although nice and interesting and all, is not really relevant to my original point. You say it's dangerous to conflate religious identity and national identity with reference to Northern Ireland. Then you'll be glad to scroll back and read where I said that national identity and religious identity can indeed clash, and I think I provided an adequate source for that. You'll forgive me next time if I don't reply to a whole lot of nothing to do with what I wanted to discuss.

Also I don't understand your point about being' VERY careful about generalising about whole national identities!'. National identities are just that, a generalisation of a group of people. Have we become so overwhelmingly sensitive about generalising that we can no longer use terms such as 'national identity' 'culture' or even 'religion'. Maybe so as not to offend in future we will all discuss things only in terms of individuals. Thanks for the discussion but I'm weary now, and out. Peace.

There's nothing compelling you to reply. It's a discussion board, not a two-way conversation!

However, thanks for your nice sarcastic, cutting, reply!

(((Grumbles, mumbles stuff under breath and generalises about people)))

Higher · 09-10-2012 07:19PM

Clareboy wrote: »

So our hospitals are full of foreign doctors and nurses, while at the same time Irish doctors and nurses have to emigrate to find work. That makes a lot of sense!

You're seriously telling me that you would prefer a less qualified surgeon operating on you simply because he or she was Irish?

If foreign doctors and nurses are employed over Irish its because they are better which is a good thing.

Immigration breeds competition for work that ensures that the economy is competitive. The only people who seem to take issue with legitimate immigration are people who can't compete.

I've said it before, Irish who can't find jobs just aren't good enough or dont want to do certain jobs. Theres minimum wage jobs EVERYWHERE. I've never gone past a dominos take-away window that didn't say 'drivers wanted', I always see advertisements for waiters in restaurant windows and chugger organizations are ALWAYS hiring

Peregrine · 09-10-2012 07:35PM

Just to clarify, only 0.76% of Ireland is Muslim and around another 1.3% in "Other" which I imagine would be Judaism, Hinduism etc. and even cults like Scientology, Palmarianism and so on
The rest belong to either some denomination of Christianity or Atheism
No real threat of foreign extremism :rolleyes:

Solair · 09-10-2012 07:37PM

Well, I sincerely hope that Irish people are sensible enough to see the cause of our economic woes - inadequate regulation, crazy banking practices, speculation and poor governance not immigration!

Good luck to anyone who can make it here and make a living as to be quite honest we desperately need new blood. Part of the problem in Ireland is that it's all 2 degrees of separation. Everyone knows everyone else somehow.

We suffered a lot from a group think mentality at many levels.

Look at the breath of fresh air in economic thinking from an immigrant like Constantine Gurdiev (Russian) who had consistently held the establishment to account for years! He's prepared to be a lot more patriotic than the bunch of Yes Men who haunted the airwaves during the boom.

The financial regulation agencies have also been restocked somewhat with non Irish experts because they are able to look at things in a totally different light to locals!

Same goes for many others, moved here, rolled up their sleeves and got stuck in!

There are loads of very innovative immigrants here who are making more than just a go of it and are having a very positive impact on Ireland on general.

Frankly, I'd much rather live in modern multicultural Ireland than a monocultural, conservative, backwater!

Clareboy · 09-10-2012 08:37PM

Higher wrote: »

You're seriously telling me that you would prefer a less qualified surgeon operating on you simply because he or she was Irish?

If foreign doctors and nurses are employed over Irish its because they are better which is a good thing.

Immigration breeds competition for work that ensures that the economy is competitive. The only people who seem to take issue with legitimate immigration are people who can't compete.

I've said it before, Irish who can't find jobs just aren't good enough or dont want to do certain jobs. Theres minimum wage jobs EVERYWHERE. I've never gone past a dominos take-away window that didn't say 'drivers wanted', I always see advertisements for waiters in restaurant windows and chugger organizations are ALWAYS hiring

So foreign doctors and nurses are better than Irish ones and the Irish are not good enough to work as pizza delivery drivers or waiters. How did we ever survive as a nation before all the immigrants arrived?

Ghost Buster · 09-10-2012 08:46PM

Clareboy wrote: »

So foreign doctors and nurses are better than Irish ones and the Irish are not good enough to work as pizza delivery drivers or waiters. How did we ever survive as a nation before all the immigrants arrived?

Look up the meaning of the word 'if' and it may stop you reading things into posts which are not there.

old hippy · 09-10-2012 08:53PM

Clareboy wrote: »

So foreign doctors and nurses are better than Irish ones and the Irish are not good enough to work as pizza delivery drivers or waiters. How did we ever survive as a nation before all the immigrants arrived?

Why, we had the likes of you - protecting us from the foreign hordes
:rolleyes:

09-10-2012 09:15PM

old hippy wrote: »

Our friend's daughter is half Japanese and half Kenyan. She doesn't meet with that kind of predjudice. I've been to Japan many times and have studied the culture since I could read.

I'm not blind to the country's negative aspects, by any means. But pig headed ignorance is sadly rampant in every country. Just read the posts here to give you an idea.

I'd say.

As a gaijin try going into some Japanese nightclub's or restaurants and see what happens.

old hippy · 09-10-2012 09:19PM

Zackary Magnificent Sentry wrote: »

I'd say.

As a gaijin try going into some Japanese nightclub's or restaurants and see what happens.

Um, the only nightclub or restaurant I've been refused in Japan was run by gaijin - in Okinawa.

Nice effort; try again

199 different nationalities now in Ireland

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