Bouncers/ Clubs rights

BhoscaCapall · 30-09-2012 12:51AM

irishgeo wrote: »

On the bouncers hiding the security ID , they broke the law, judging by the wording of the act.

Its impossible to read some of the acts of law we write.

The bit in italics has me confused does it mean anyone can demand to see the ID of the bouncer?

One would assume the license holder is providing a security service for their clientèle, so yes.

But again, it makes no difference in practise because a bouncer can just tell the guards he did show them it, the punter was aggressive and then slipped over and broke their nose on the curb. In fact the bouncer could tell the Gardai that a unicorn rode down the street and kicked f**k out of the guy and they'd take their word over a drunk person, particularly a student.

irishgeo · 30-09-2012 12:53AM

humbert wrote: »

I can't see any other interpretation. Certainly once the person has paid in the are being provided security by the club owner.

that is what i thought it said but christ they do word it backwards.

Once they are in the club the bouncer is providing a security service to the patron and therefore the patron can demand to see it.

The OP could technically complain to the PSA about the bouncers not showing them thier ID but the last line of section 29 has a get out clause for the bouncers.

Its amazing what you can learn for reading the laws of the land. its a shame no could simplify them in plain English.

token101 · 30-09-2012 12:54AM

Melion wrote: »

People do not get kicked out for no reason, it does not happen

Maybe not kicked out, but not being let in could be for the most trivial, if any, reason. They were so notorious for it in Cork they got their own song:

Mr. Boo · 30-09-2012 12:54AM

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

One would assume the license holder is providing a security service for their clientèle, so yes.

But again, it makes no difference in practise because a bouncer can just tell the guards he did show them it, the punter was aggressive and then slipped over and broke their nose on the curb. In fact the bouncer could tell the Gardai that a unicorn rode down the street and kicked f**k out of the guy and they'd take their word over a drunk person, particularly a student.

I dunno...I know a few Gardaí who don't trust bouncers either.

p1nm101 · 30-09-2012 12:56AM

irishgeo wrote: »

In regards to the CCTV footage, your friend is legally entitled to look at CCTV footage of him in the niteclub under the data protection act.
I posted the link and a quote saying how to go about it getting the footage.

The data protection act is very powerful and i had some interesting fun with MBNA and text messages they were sending to my father about an unpaid credit card bill. He never had a MBNA credit card in his life. I used to the Data Protection Acts to make them squirm a bit as to where they got his number.

http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=242

Thank you after about 180 useless replies thats what i wanted to know, as im only 18 i obviously admit I dont know all of my rights and thats why im here, not to prove to people that none of us out of the 40 odd were drunk entering the place and that we wernt there to try and cause trouble.

A lot of people here seem to think that a group of friends (not 40 lads btw, 40 people) cant go out to a club without being absolutly hammered. We were on the bus home because we kept drinking after but going into the club no one was drunk, everyone only had 2 or maybe 3 cans at that stage.

And the lads slagging us, on a forum, at 1, on a Saturday night.....

BhoscaCapall · 30-09-2012 12:58AM

Mr. Boo wrote: »

I dunno...I know a few Gardaí who don't trust bouncers either.

There is quite a fraternal thing amongst Gardai, and also amongst bouncers. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a mutual 'respect' though. They obviously work in cohesion and it would be pretty naive to suggest they don't do 'favours' for each other.

Adyx · 30-09-2012 12:59AM

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Cheers.

That is mental btw... over 100 times I would have been facing a €1500-2000 fine :pac: thug lyf

Interesting that a drivers license is accepted ID. I have seen Dunnes refuse to sell alcohol to someone with a license. One time they refused to sell me alcohol (I was 22 and had a passport) because my friend (21) only had a driver's license.

There's another section in that act I think that goes into detail on what are acceptable forms of id. I can't remember the wording off the top of my head but basically only production a Garda Age Card will be accepted as a defence if a licensee is brought to court for serving under-age people. Effectively, while many premises may accept a drivers licence or passport, as far as I understand it, the only one they "must" accept is an Age Card.

Hmm I may be wrong there, it was a section of the 2000 Act I was thinking of, it's worded differently in the 2003 Act.

Mr. Boo · 30-09-2012 01:00AM

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

There is quite a fraternal thing amongst Gardai, and also amongst bouncers. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a mutual 'respect' though. They obviously work in cohesion and it would be pretty naive to suggest they don't do 'favours' for each other.

You're veering dangerously into 'theories' now though.

Melion · 30-09-2012 01:02AM

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

There is quite a fraternal thing amongst Gardai, and also amongst bouncers. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a mutual 'respect' though. They obviously work in cohesion and it would be pretty naive to suggest they don't do 'favours' for each other.

They certainly do

BhoscaCapall · 30-09-2012 01:03AM

Mr. Boo wrote: »

You're veering dangerously into 'theories' now though.

I was for all of 2 minutes!

irishgeo · 30-09-2012 01:08AM

p1nm101 wrote: »

Thank you after about 180 useless replies thats what i wanted to know, as im only 18 i obviously admit I dont know all of my rights and thats why im here, not to prove to people that none of us out of the 40 odd were drunk entering the place and that we wernt there to try and cause trouble.

A lot of people here seem to think that a group of friends (not 40 lads btw, 40 people) cant go out to a club without being absolutly hammered. We were on the bus home because we kept drinking after but going into the club no one was drunk, everyone only had 2 or maybe 3 cans at that stage.

And the lads slagging us, on a forum, at 1, on a Saturday night.....

Stick it in writing you want to see the CCTV footage of the night, your only entitled to see footage you appear . Make sure you quote the Act in the letter.
Say it like Under the Data Protection Act , i am requesting that you provide me footage of the CCTV system of the night etc etc.
Also you make sure that you mention they have 40 days to respond otherwise you will lodging a complaint with Data Protection Commissioner.

If anything it will make do a bit of extra work and make them a whole load of work.

Adyx wrote: »

There's another section in that act I think that goes into detail on what are acceptable forms of id. I can't remember the wording off the top of my head but basically only production a Garda Age Card will be accepted as a defence if a licensee is brought to court for serving under-age people. Effectively, while many premises may accept a drivers licence or passport, as far as I understand it, the only one they "must" accept is an Age Card.

Intoxicating Liquor Act 2003 - Section 34A doesnt say that.

15.—The Act of 1988 is amended by inserting the following section after section 34:

“Production of evidence of age by persons between 18 and 21 years.

34A.—(1) The holder of a licence of any licensed premises shall not allow a person who is aged at least 18 years but under the age of 21 years to be in the bar of those premises between 9.00 p.m. and 10.30 a.m. on the following day (12.30 p.m. if the following day is a Sunday) if the person does not produce an age document to the holder.

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1) of this section ‘age document’ means a document containing a photograph of the person in respect of whom it was issued and information that enables the age of the person to be determined and being one of the following documents relating to a person referred to in that subsection:

(a) an age card referred to in section 40 of this Act,

(b) a passport,

(c) an identity card issued by a member state of the European Communities,

(d) a driver licence, or

(e) a document issued by a body, and in a form, prescribed by regulations made by the Minister.

(3) A person referred to in subsection (1) of this section shall not be in the bar of licensed premises between the times referred to in that subsection while not having with him or her an age document.

(4) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section is guilty of an offence under this section and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding—

(a) for a first offence, €1,500, or

(b) for a second or any subsequent offence, €2,000.

(5) A person who contravenes subsection (3) of this section is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €300.”.

Ace2007 · 30-09-2012 01:28AM

Asking for footage of a nightclub on you is going to be very difficult, and probably not going to work, how is the club going to know it's you on the footage?

irishgeo · 30-09-2012 01:41AM

Ace2007 wrote: »

Asking for footage of a nightclub on you is going to be very difficult, and probably not going to work, how is the club going to know it's you on the footage?

The law is the law.

Intoxicating Liquor Act states they must have CCTV if you want to serve alcohol in a niteclub and for the renewal of liqour licence, the law states that the fire officer has to confirm its working.

The data protection act states your entitled to view any footage contained of you on security footage.

i bet they would have no trouble picking you out of it if they wanted too.It not a shabby CCTV system they would have invested in, i bet it could pick you out of a crowd with no problem. How else do they find the drug dealers and people who start fights etc.

Rabies · 30-09-2012 01:48AM

p1nm101 wrote: »

Thank you after about 180 useless replies thats what i wanted to know, as im only 18 i obviously admit I dont know all of my rights and thats why im here, not to prove to people that none of us out of the 40 odd were drunk entering the place and that we wernt there to try and cause trouble.

A lot of people here seem to think that a group of friends (not 40 lads btw, 40 people) cant go out to a club without being absolutly hammered. We were on the bus home because we kept drinking after but going into the club no one was drunk, everyone only had 2 or maybe 3 cans at that stage.

And the lads slagging us, on a forum, at 1, on a Saturday night.....

Most clubs will deny entry to a large unexpected group, especially of that age. Intoxication isn't a major factor first off to the bouncers, the possibility of damage to the premise is.

Pre loading of alcohol combined with the rowdy nature of the pack regardless of sex can lead to a messy mob. Might be sober now, but someone will get drunk quick.

My experience with groups of that size is we generally end up kicking most of them out within 30min of entry.

Looking for the CCTV footage isn't going to happen on the night. No amount of asking is going to get it. Quote the data protection act on the night you'll be swiftly told in a not so polite manner where to go.
You'll have to get a legal letter of some sort to get access to the cctv footage from most clubs/bars. We could open ourselves up to other possible legal implications by showing it to any Joe Soap.

Bouncers can refuse right of admission to anyone.
What most people don't understand and forget is they are working under the instruction of a manager. That manager is probably outside giving the nod of yes or no to groups that walk to the door.

You're only 18. When moving around in a large group like that you need to approach the door as small mixed groups. Less threatening to the bouncers

norrie rugger · 30-09-2012 01:54AM

Rabies wrote: »

You're only 18. When moving around in a large group like that you need to approach the door as small mixed groups. Less threatening to the bouncers

yeah then half of them pay to get in, only to have one mini group stopped

Rabies · 30-09-2012 02:06AM

norrie rugger wrote: »

yeah then half of them pay to get in, only to have one mini group stopped

Much higher chance of them all getting in as a small group instead of as a pack.

No different to telling all your friends to meet in a club at 11pm, every turns but little spotty faced Johnny is stuck outside with Jancinta because he wore his best Nike tracksuit and she had a small bottle of vodka in her bag. I'm sure they're great people and sober on arrival too. But the bouncers picked up on something they didn't like.

msg11 · 30-09-2012 02:08AM

Someone said that a bouncer dose not have to give you there name. This is correct, they are obliged to give you there ID number and display there ID card at all times. If they do not do either it is not in accordance with the licence issued and would be acting unlicensed.

But then again this is the PSA we are talking about and that's a joke.

Also suggesting that Garda and bouncers are the singing from the same hymm sheet is a joke, the work of the Garda far out reaches the work of a bouncer a thousand time over.

LAW

http://www.psa.gov.ie/Website/psa/psa.nsf/the_private_security_services_act.pdf

ID Request , 29, 2 Sub B
Cards shown all times, 30, 5 Sub C

Word of the wise, don't let the bouncers get too you. They do actually provide a service and make most clubs a safer environments like all jobs there ****. But unlike most jobs, if one dose not like you. Don't expect someone to think your great. It's a click once one says no just walk away there's no chance after that.

minidazzler · 30-09-2012 02:24AM

If you have a group of 40 people and whoever organised it didn't call the club ahead of time to say that a large group would be arriving then they are not very good at organizing. It's not hard to do and if you are lucky you'll get a straight up refusal for a group of that size over the phone rather than when you actually arrive at the club.

I have only twice been refused or removed from pubs/clubs. The first time I was horrendously drunk and certainly deserved it. The second time I was suffering from a huge amount of back pain and when I was getting up it looked like I was hammered because I was awkward. The problem was I wasn't sober enough to argue my point. That time it happened in my regular haunt where I spend a lot of money. I was actually glad of it because I was broke anyway and needed to go home.

I don't see a point in arguing with bouncers, as I said, I have rarely been removed, but I have a friend who was constantly refused entry into all but "his" bars, it took us a while to figure out that when he was walking at the back of us up to a place he didn't want to go to he would act like he was coked and yoked just to get us refused. (He has eyes that looked out of it all the time). He would play up to it while the rest of us were trying to get in because he's a cnut.

My point is, bouncers rarely have "no" reason to refuse someone, if you are getting refused a lot, look at yourself objectively and find the problem, because you can rest assured the problem IS you. The pub wants your money, but doesn't want your trouble, if you look like trouble they shouldn't let you in, it's profiling sure, but if it's in the interest of keeping other patrons safe then that's OK in my book, it's a private establishment after all.

BhoscaCapall · 30-09-2012 02:42AM

Rabies wrote: »

Much higher chance of them all getting in as a small group instead of as a pack.

No different to telling all your friends to meet in a club at 11pm, every turns but little spotty faced Johnny is stuck outside with Jancinta because he wore his best Nike tracksuit and she had a small bottle of vodka in her bag. I'm sure they're great people and sober on arrival too. But the bouncers picked up on something they didn't like.

Would bouncers really refuse entry for that? Surely just confiscating it is enough? Despite the supposed fantastic pay they're on surely they understand how routinely the average punter in Ireland gets ripped off for drinks.

Adyx · 30-09-2012 02:53AM

irishgeo wrote: »

Intoxicating Liquor Act 2003 - Section 34A doesnt say that.

I know it doesn't. That's why I said in my post another section. I specifically said production of an age card may be used as a defence in cases of under-age people being served.

While passports and drivers licences may be accepted as proof of age, that doesn't mean they have to be. Most supermarkets that I am aware of will only accept an age card for example. Anyway this hardly relevant to this thread.

leggo · 30-09-2012 02:57AM

Melion wrote: »

Im quite happy going to work earning more in a night than a lot of people do in a week.

Working in security for the dayjob, I'll almost always stand up for a bouncer whenever this ****e comes up on boards, but I can tell you that this is absolute bollocks.

The average wage of a bouncer is €15-18 p/h. That's due to anti-social working hours and is typically spread over a 5-hour period from 10.30pm to 3.30pm (or thereabouts). I know this because I've worked as a bouncer before. And I didn't bother renewing my DSL. It wasn't worth the extra money tbh, but that's another discussion for another day.

And, before you start with the usual "Oh yeah but MY club is special," bollocks that I hear constantly from bouncers, my non-dayjob is in events so I'm often put in charge of costings and budgets for different nightclubs and, thus, get access to these figures. Your club isn't special unless its imaginary.

Also, a friend of mine helped me out when I first got my DSL. He worked in some of the biggest nightclubs in the country, during the Celtic Tiger, and his wage was only a couple euros above the average outlined above. Again, that was in the boom. And these are the actual 'special' clubs that pay well.

So, please, don't lie to make yourself sound the big man. Unless you're comparing yourself to a teenager on pocket money from their parents, you don't earn more in a night than most earn in a week. The typical jobseeker's allowance is double what the average wage for a bouncer is per night. It's a reasonably decent paying, **** job, at best. You'll come out with about 24-27k per year if you do it full-time, i.e. not the kind of salary worth bragging about. Soz.

Don't even get me started on the 'sexual benefits' you alluded to later. The reality of this, for most bouncer's, is a blowie off a fat girl this one time that they've expanded on to make it sound like they get their hole every night (with the comeback for anyone who calls them on it being, "Oh you must obviously not get it..." :rolleyes:)

BhoscaCapall · 30-09-2012 02:58AM

Adyx wrote: »

Most supermarkets that I am aware of will only accept an age card for example.

Which is downright absurd, while we're at it. A passport is seen as one of the most valid forms of ID all over the world except... Dunnes and Aldi? You can board a plane to another country or rent a car using it but you can't buy a few cans of beer :rolleyes:

Don't you need a passport to apply for AgeCard anyway?

djflawless · 30-09-2012 03:00AM

so your NOT coming to time next weekend???

Rabies · 30-09-2012 07:15AM

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Would bouncers really refuse entry for that? Surely just confiscating it is enough? Despite the supposed fantastic pay they're on surely they understand how routinely the average punter in Ireland gets ripped off for drinks.

Depends on how they react when its taken from them.
Sometimes its given back and they walk away, or they can pick it up when leaving the venue if they're allowed enter.
If one person has a bottle, then another person in the group probably does too.
No money to be made off them.
I don't disagree with you on the price of alcohol in the pubs. It is too high, but best way for people to bring it down is to not go to the pub/club. Prices will drop on certain nights.

kippy · 30-09-2012 09:32AM

norrie rugger wrote: »

Ah the typical helpful high horse AH reply.
"It is all the OP's fault". DO people come onto this forum just to have a go at people looking for some advice?

I was kicked out for no reason..... You MUST have done something
I was Clamped in my own spot.... You must have been in the wrong somehow
ad nauseam, ad nauseam

How would this be the OP's fault? He wasn't kicked out of anywhere.......

It's not a typical AH response. It's the response of someone who has looked at the facts as presented by the OP, tried to look at the situation form the other parties POV, which is difficult as they cannot give their side of it, then decided whether to take the story as told as completely true.
The facts as presented in this case by the OP were fairly obvious.
40 18 years olds on a party.
You mean to tell me you were never 18, nay that you couldn't pick a random grouping of 18 year olds in a similiar situation and tell me that none of them would be overly intoxicated, missing ID etc etc

People tend to look for advice here and elsewhere for good reason and when one gives advice to someone it is extremely important to have all of the facts to hand, when the story as presented does not add up, one can only start to realise there are pieces missing or the OP is not telling the whole story.
If you look at posts such as this you'll often find the people who can't give their side of the story are often in the right, the issue is the OP not being aware of the law, rules, social behaviour norms, a certain piece of information.
I think the OP has been given advice of where to go next.

This thread is more typical of the AH response that hammers the other party that cannot give their side of the story. Knee jerk reactions I think they are called.-
The other party is in the complete wrong, you would be totally vindicated in getting legal advice, taking the matter further. The majority of those in the other parties role are "arseholes".

Arawn · 30-09-2012 09:57AM

Just on what mellion was saying about pay. It all depends on where yer working and for how long. I used to work in a place. 8 till closing with only one other doorman, for 35e an hour then do a food place from 2 till about 4 for 16 an hour on a saturday night. Then work 2 other days from 8 till closing for 18 an hour in another pub.

You can easily earn close to or over sw a night.

Also has anyone ever honestly seen 40 18 year olds in a pub where someone has not done something to get kicked out?#

minidazzler · 30-09-2012 11:17AM

Arawn wrote: »

Also has anyone ever honestly seen 40 18 year olds in a pub where someone has not done something to get kicked out?#

I'm in Cork where bouncers tend to be a bit easier going IME. If it's a huge group and someone does something stupid the bouncers will usually have a quick word to try to stop them. 18-20 year olds will invariably argue back rather than accept the scolding and staying inside. It's really as simple as STFU and stay off the bouncers radar for a half hour. But saying "I did nothin biy, I was just sittin here" Gets you kicked out fairly handy.

average hero · 30-09-2012 12:36PM

Working in a busy establishment in Dublin, I know first-hand as a barman how many people are trying to get one over on the bar by thieving the odd bottle of lemonade, a soft drink, challenging how much change you gave them back, generally being rude and ignorant when drunk and could tell you many a story. In the case of where I work, I'm lucky in that aggressive people are usually stopped at the door, and we only have to deal with rude and ignorant customers or babysit people who have had one too many ALONG WITH OUR OWN WORK THAT WE HAVE TO DO.

I have also been in the position of the rude / too drunk / too young customer. Generally I have come to realise that I have been wrong on these occasions.

To the OP, what I would say to you is that unless the bouncer knew you, it was more than likely not personal. They have to make split-second decisions to ensure the safety/comfort of other patrons. They also are trying to safeguard their own jobs in some cases.

I have never known a bouncer to be infallible, or claim to be. They are human, like everyone else and make mistakes.

I would advise that you contact nightclubs in future before going in, break up into 2's or 3's in the line to the door and have a backup venue in the future.

Ace2007 · 30-09-2012 02:59PM

irishgeo wrote: »

The law is the law.

Intoxicating Liquor Act states they must have CCTV if you want to serve alcohol in a niteclub and for the renewal of liqour licence, the law states that the fire officer has to confirm its working.

The data protection act states your entitled to view any footage contained of you on security footage.

i bet they would have no trouble picking you out of it if they wanted too.It not a shabby CCTV system they would have invested in, i bet it could pick you out of a crowd with no problem. How else do they find the drug dealers and people who start fights etc.

ok, so you advise the op to write to the club demanding footage of him.

tell me how the club is going to know what he looks like from the letter?
or will the op be like i was in you club on this date, i was the guy at the table txting all night on my phone? - please show me this footage?
or are you going to advise him to include a picture + proof of his identity?
if this is the case, and the boncers ever see it - they could easily make sure he never gets into another club that the company works for.

the op said that it was his friend that fell - so the cctv is not going to be showing that footage - as it is not him,

also do you think the op will pay the €6 odd if they ask him for it?

In this case, no matter what happens nothing good is going to come of it, so the OP should just leave it be.

Logical Fallacy · 30-09-2012 03:27PM

moy83 wrote: »

A couple of fellas I know reckon its hard to get more than 50 squids a night but they like the social aspect of it :rolleyes:

Then those dudes are chumps tbh. Monkeys always work for peanuts.

Bouncers/ Clubs rights

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