Bouncers/ Clubs rights

Melion · 30-09-2012 12:12AM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I worked on a door and the chap that was with me refused entry to chap because he had no ID. When he came back with his passport he was 24 .

So?

Mr. Boo · 30-09-2012 12:12AM

Melion wrote: »

If you are over 30 then there is no way i would mistake you for a 17yr old.

It even happened to me in the supermarket. I was buying a 6-pack and the girl asks me for ID. I says, I only have an Irish DL on me (I'm in UK). She looks at it, asks me where's the DOB on it, and when I point it out proceeded to get really embarrassed.

It's the curse of the incredibly good looking. I know other lads with the same problem, but WAY more girls who get ID'd all the time even though they're lat 20's, early 30's. But they love it...

Melion · 30-09-2012 12:13AM

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

So you're saying that you legally have to carry it, but you're not breaking the law if you don't? Do you understand how laws work?

So you're saying you just fob them off with that excuse, or does this law (which can be broken without breaking the law...) actually exists?

Also, is this notion of 'valid ID' legitimate? I've seen bouncers reject people because they had an expired passport (corner cut off), which they kept for the sole purpose of it being less risky to bring out. They were attempting to enter a nightclub, not travel abroad.

It was my understanding that there is no requirement for ID, merely a law that U18s cannot purchase alcohol and that asking for ID was a way to reassure the doorstaff that the punter is of drinking age. So say for example (and this is an exaggerated hypothetical!) somebody attempts to get into your club. They have no passport, drivers license or AgeCard. They do have a birth cert, several credit cards, several work/college photo ID cards and some bank statements. Can you let this person in?

An expired passport(with the corners cut off) is not a valid form of ID as it has expired. I also worked airline security so know all about passports.

Mr. Boo · 30-09-2012 12:14AM

Melion wrote: »

So?

So he shouldn't have needed ID in the first place?

Hilly Bill · 30-09-2012 12:14AM

Melion wrote: »

So?

so? I cant believe you just posted that

.

BhoscaCapall · 30-09-2012 12:15AM

Melion wrote: »

An expired passport(with the corners cut off) is not a valid form of ID as it has expired. I also worked airline security so know all about passports.

So you would let a 19 year old in with no ID, but you wouldn't let somebody in who had a passport with a photo that's clearly them, proving they were old enough - because it has expired?

Do you see how this inconsistency is confusing?

Melion · 30-09-2012 12:16AM

Mr. Boo wrote: »

So he shouldn't have needed ID in the first place?

If he had politely told the doorman, "Look im 24, ive left my ID at home because i didnt think id need it" you can bet your arse that he would have been let it.

Hilly Bill · 30-09-2012 12:16AM

Mr. Boo wrote: »

So he shouldn't have needed ID in the first place?

I know, i would have let him in as it was plain to see that he was in his 20's. The chap that refused him was just being a dick.

areyawell · 30-09-2012 12:17AM

funniest post in ages, 40 young lads and no one was drunk yea right, lad fell on his arse because ground was a bit wet? yea right.

If a bouncer thinks its not the person in the I.D they have every right not to let the person in. just sounds like they didnt want to let you into get your coats because you were drunk

Mr. Boo · 30-09-2012 12:17AM

Melion wrote: »

If he had politely told the doorman, "Look im 24, ive left my ID at home because i didnt think id need it" you can bet your arse that he would have been let it.

That would depend on who was working the door. And if you disagree with that, you are lying to everyone including yourself.

Melion · 30-09-2012 12:17AM

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

So you would let a 19 year old in with no ID, but you wouldn't let somebody in who had a passport with a photo that's clearly them, proving they were old enough - because it has expired?

Do you see how this inconsistency is confusing?

Its not inconsistent and i never said i wouldnt let them in. I have had this situation happen countless times before, ive told them that i will allow them in that night but its not a valid form of ID and to get a proper one sorted.

Hilly Bill · 30-09-2012 12:17AM

Melion wrote: »

If he had politely told the doorman, "Look im 24, ive left my ID at home because i didnt think id need it" you can bet your arse that he would have been let it.

Not by this chap. He was checking everyones ID'S regardless of how old they looked like.

Melion · 30-09-2012 12:18AM

Mr. Boo wrote: »

That would depend on who was working the door. And if you disagree with that, you are lying to everyone including yourself.

Of course it depends on that, any decent doorman will let them in.

BhoscaCapall · 30-09-2012 12:20AM

Melion wrote: »

Its not inconsistent and i never said i wouldnt let them in. I have had this situation happen countless times before, ive told them that i will allow them in that night but its not a valid form of ID and to get a proper one sorted.

So you need a valid ID, but it's not a valid ID, but you will let them in, but next time you won't let them in.

That's not inconsistent?

Is there a law saying you must have a valid passport/agecard to enter a nightclub, or is there law just that you must be over 18? Not trying to prove a point here, genuine question. If it's the latter, and you simply request for ID to cover yourselves since you can't be expected to know everyone's exact age, then I understand that.

Hilly Bill · 30-09-2012 12:20AM

Melion wrote: »

Of course it depends on that, any decent doorman will let them in.

unless they didnt like his appearance

.

Adyx · 30-09-2012 12:26AM

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

So you need a valid ID, but it's not a valid ID, but you will let them in, but next time you won't let them in.

That's not inconsistent?

Is there a law saying you must have a valid passport/agecard to enter a nightclub, or is there law just that you must be over 18? Not trying to prove a point here, genuine question. If it's the latter, and you simply request for ID to cover yourselves since you can't be expected to know everyone's exact age, then I understand that.

It's illegal for a licensed premises to allow a person aged between 18 and 21 to be on the premises after 9pm unless they can produce valid proof of age.

Melion · 30-09-2012 12:27AM

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

So you need a valid ID, but it's not a valid ID, but you will let them in, but next time you won't let them in.

That's not inconsistent?

Is there a law saying you must have a valid passport/agecard to enter a nightclub, or is there law just that you must be over 18? Not trying to prove a point here, genuine question. If it's the latter, and you simply request for ID to cover yourselves since you can't be expected to know everyone's exact age, then I understand that.

Answered by someone else

irishgeo · 30-09-2012 12:28AM

In regards to the CCTV footage, your friend is legally entitled to look at CCTV footage of him in the niteclub under the data protection act.
I posted the link and a quote saying how to go about it getting the footage.

The data protection act is very powerful and i had some interesting fun with MBNA and text messages they were sending to my father about an unpaid credit card bill. He never had a MBNA credit card in his life. I used to the Data Protection Acts to make them squirm a bit as to where they got his number.

http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=242

Access Requests

Any person whose image has been recorded has a right to be given a copy of the information recorded. To exercise that right, a person must make an application in writing. A data controller may charge up to €6.35 for responding to such a request and must respond within 40 days.

Practically, a person should provide necessary information to a data controller, such as the date, time and location of the recording. If the image is of such poor quality as not to clearly identify an individual, that image may not be considered to be personal data.

In giving a person a copy of his/her data, the data controller may provide a still/series of still pictures, a tape or a disk with relevant images. However, other people's images should be obscured before the data are released.

Melion · 30-09-2012 12:32AM

irishgeo wrote: »

In regards to the CCTV footage, your friend is legally entitled to look at CCTV footage of him in the niteclub under the data protection act.
I posted the link and a quote saying how to go about it getting the footage.

The data protection act is very powerful and i had some interesting fun with MBNA and text messages they were sending to my father about an unpaid credit card bill. He never had a MBNA credit card in his life. I used to the Data Protection Acts to make them squirm a bit as to where they got his number.

http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=242

He has no entitlement to be shown the video on the spot which is what the OP wanted.

admiralofthefleet · 30-09-2012 12:34AM

sounds just like a 'hen not'. its when you walk into a pub, see a gang of screaming drunk women wearing pink cowboy hats and immediately turn on your heel and leave

humbert · 30-09-2012 12:37AM

Melion wrote: »

He has no entitlement to be shown the video on the spot which is what the OP wanted.

The OP wasn't specific about that and the refusal was absolute.

Melion · 30-09-2012 12:38AM

humbert wrote: »

The OP wasn't specific about that and the refusal was absolute.

Yes he was, said it twice and i answered him twice.

BhoscaCapall · 30-09-2012 12:39AM

Adyx wrote: »

It's illegal for a licensed premises to allow a person aged between 18 and 21 to be on the premises after 9pm unless they can produce valid proof of age.

Thanks. Without meaning to sound like a dick, do you have a source for that? I only ask because it's absurd. Like in my earlier example, a 20 year old enjoying a quiet pint by himself in a pub would therefore be kicked out even if the bouncer and Gardai both knew he was 20.

Melion · 30-09-2012 12:40AM

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Thanks. Without meaning to sound like a dick, do you have a source for that? I only ask because it's absurd. Like in my earlier example, a 20 year old enjoying a quiet pint by himself in a pub would therefore be kicked out even if the bouncer and Gardai both knew he was 20.

Every pub and club should have it on a sign somewhere on the premises.
White sheet with red and black writing on it.

Adyx · 30-09-2012 12:41AM

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Thanks. Without meaning to sound like a dick, do you have a source for that? I only ask because it's absurd. Like in my earlier example, a 20 year old enjoying a quiet pint by himself in a pub would therefore be kicked out even if the bouncer and Gardai both knew he was 20.

Intoxicating Liquor Act 2003 - Section 34A

Edit: I know this hasn't come up yet but it always does in these sort of threads. It is perfectly legal for a premises to refuse entry/service to a person over 18 if they have an over 21s only policy or whatever provided it's enforced in good faith and there is a prominently displayed sign advertising this. I know it's not relevant to the discussion at hand but I thought I'd nip it in the bud.

irishgeo · 30-09-2012 12:42AM

Melion wrote: »

He has no entitlement to be shown the video on the spot which is what the OP wanted.

your correct , the request has to be in writing.

humbert · 30-09-2012 12:43AM

Melion wrote: »

Yes he was, said it twice and i answered him twice.

They asked to see it, presumable they would have preferred to see it there and then but there was no offer to make it available at all. I'm not surprised by this but the OP probably isn't aware that they do have a right to see it even if perhaps at a later date.

The right to refuse entry isn't the same as kicking out a customer who has paid in without cause.

BhoscaCapall · 30-09-2012 12:46AM

Adyx wrote: »

Intoxicating Liquor Act 2003 - Section 34A

Cheers.

That is mental btw... over 100 times I would have been facing a €1500-2000 fine :pac: thug lyf

Interesting that a drivers license is accepted ID. I have seen Dunnes refuse to sell alcohol to someone with a license. One time they refused to sell me alcohol (I was 22 and had a passport) because my friend (21) only had a driver's license.

irishgeo · 30-09-2012 12:47AM

On the bouncers hiding the security ID , they broke the law, judging by the wording of the act.

Its impossible to read some of the acts of law we write.

Private Security Services Act 2004 , Section 29 states the following.

Identity cards.

29.—(1) The Authority shall issue an identity card to each individual who is a licensee.

(2) Each such individual—

(a) shall have the identity card in his or her possession when providing the security service authorised by the licence, and

(b) shall, on request, produce it there and then for inspection by any person for whom the licensee is providing a security service under the licence and permit such a person to inspect it.

(3) A member of the Garda Síochána may require an individual who in the member's opinion is providing a security service to produce there and then for inspection by the member the identity card issued to the individual in connection with the grant of a licence authorising the provision of the service.

(4) An individual who produces an identity card in accordance with subsection (3) shall permit the person to whom it is produced to inspect it.

(5) Where an individual does not comply with subsection (3) or (4), the member of the Garda Síochána concerned may require the individual to give his or her name and address.

(6) The powers conferred on a member of the Garda Síochána by subsections (3) and (5) may also be exercised by an inspector.

(7) (a) In this subsection “identity card” includes an identity card or other form of identification issued by a corresponding authority.

(b) An individual shall not—

(i) produce for inspection an identity card issued to another individual, or

(ii) with intent to deceive, make or use a document purporting to be an identity card, alter an identity card or use an altered identity card.

(c) An individual who contravenes paragraph (b) is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €3,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or both.

(8) A member of the Garda Síochána may arrest without warrant—

(a) an individual who refuses to produce the identity card issued to him or her when required to do so under subsection (3) or does not permit the person to whom an identity card is produced under subsection (3) to inspect it,

(b) an individual who—

(i) does not give his or her name and address when required by a person under subsection (5) to do so, or

(ii) gives a name or address which that person reasonably believes to be false,

or

(c) an individual whom the member, with reasonable cause, suspects of having contravened subsection (7)(b).

(9) An individual who—

(a) contravenes subsection (2)(a) or (4), or

(b) does not comply with a request under subsection (2)(b) or a requirement under subsection (3) or (5),

is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €2,000.

(10) It is a defence in proceedings for an offence under subsection (2) or (3) for the defendant to prove that he or she had a reasonable excuse for not complying with the subsection concerned.

The bit in italics has me confused does it mean anyone can demand to see the ID of the bouncer?

humbert · 30-09-2012 12:50AM

irishgeo wrote: »

On the bouncers hiding the security ID , they broke the law, judging by the wording of the act.

Its impossible to read some of the acts of law we write.

The bit in italics has me confused does it mean anyone can demand to see the ID of the bouncer?

I can't see any other interpretation. Certainly once the person has paid in the are being provided security by the club owner.

Bouncers/ Clubs rights

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